crazylibertarian wrote:
'Separation of church & state' is a phrase that appears nowhere in The Constitution but in a letter of assurance to a Danbury Connecticut Baptist congregation by Thomas Jefferson. And to cite him as a source of the true meaning of The Constitution is more than a little disingenuous because he had no hand in its writing nor the deliberations thereon, him being in Paris serving as our ambassador at the time. The reports I've read are that he was upset when he returned to the new United States of America & read it.
I understand no minutes of the deliberations were kept but years later one delegate wrote a book on it.
To discern the meanings of the various phrases,it is useful to refer to the deliberations of the various ratification conventions of the states.
Finally, Congress, not the states, are prohibited from establishing a religion. At least one and possibly two states had an established religion at the time of the writing and ratifications.
Ratification was by no means assured. Most of The Federalist Papers were written to induce a reluctant New York to ratify. New Hamphire became the ninth and deciding state to ratify.
Nevertheless, North Carolina and Rhode Island didn't ratify until well after George Washington became president and The First Congress was in session! North Carolina ratified leaving Rhode Island as the holdout.
I've read that Washington was so incensed at its reluctance that he considered invading and dividing it between Massachusetts and Connecticut. Congress threatened to begin treating it as a foreign country, with tariffs on its goods traded to other states. Rhode Island ratified by act of its legislature, the only state to do so and it passed by just 34-32. Others had ratification conventions.
'Separation of church & state' is a phrase tha... (
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And again, nobody actually reads that letter to find out that the wall is between the federal government and the state government.
There is no wall between the fifty states and religion.
At the state level people can decide to do whatever they want and that includes having a state religion, if they want it.
In a 1715 pamphlet which I auctioned years ago, it said 'the three great scourges of mankind are priests, barristers and physicians. They left out politicians.
Blue Fox wrote:
In a 1715 pamphlet which I auctioned years ago, it said 'the three great scourges of mankind are priests, barristers and physicians. They left out politicians.
I'm a physician and am not happy about their inclusion but also question the inclusion of priests. How about newspaper reporters?
Blue Fox wrote:
In a 1715 pamphlet which I auctioned years ago, it said 'the three great scourges of mankind are priests, barristers and physicians. They left out politicians.
It is appalling to me and demonstrative of the progress Satan has made in the destruction and compromise of Christianity. It is precisely your antagonism and hatred of Catholics, based on ignorance, and taught prejudice, that is the reason for Satan's success. If you knew scripture and Christian history you would know that from the beginning of the Christian faith there was established the hierarchy of deacons, bishops and priests. Read Timothy! When Luther was interdicted and excommunicated he lost his right to the sacred priesthood. Thereafter, no protestant church had access to valid sacraments. Luther was the first protestant. Within 80 years there were over 200 different denominations waring against one another and if you believe the Inquisition was horrible it was no less equal to the heresy trials and executions by the protestants. Rome admits the Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, was wrong. The protestants remain silent and lest we forget so called witches were burned right here in America. For 1500 years there were basically two Christian Churches, the East (orthodox) and the West (Roman). 500 years later, in America, there are approximately 25,000 different protestant denominations, all using the same basic scripture, all having different interpretations of scripture and all offering slightly different paths to attain heaven. And who does this division serve if not the father of lies? Practically every protestant denomination that sanctioned women clergy have now or are in the process of putting their blessing on homosexuality. The East and the West do not. Satan wants to destroy the Christian Church and who better to assist him than ignorant Christians? There has always been attacks against the faith. St Paul was plagued with the heresy of Gnosticism. Chances are you know not one formally defined heresy but you are an expert on.......your feelings, your ignorance. But, in truth, it's not your fault. You've never been taught church history. By example, consider today how our youth are being purposely dumbed down on American history. Why? Whose purpose does it serve?
FYI, I am not a Roman Catholic. And although I firmly believe that Protestants have been thoroughly robbed of their Christian heritage and do not have the fullness of the faith once delivered by Christ to the Apostles, I believe what Christ told the apostles who discovered others, not sanctioned to preach the Gospel, doing so -"if they're not against us, they are for us." Might I suggest you do likewise.
Blue Fox wrote:
In a 1715 pamphlet which I auctioned years ago, it said 'the three great scourges of mankind are priests, barristers and physicians. They left out politicians.
That's because, back in the day, they did not have politicians.
The colonies had individuals that stepped up to positions of responsibility.
Politics was something you did to get results, it was not who you were or what you did for a living.
You're absolutely right. I'm not even sure the term existed.
The 1715 pamphlet to which I alluded was from Philadelphia and would reflect the sentiments current at that time and place.
fredsgirl. I totally agree with you with the exception that they can try, it is their calling and right but you can tell them to get their fnkin asses off of your porch which is how I handle it. I was raised Catholic and I'm glad I was. Believe it or not if you believe in what you are taught in the Church when you are young, you have a lot of forgiveness and can get way with quite a bunch of stuff and be forgiven. A couple of Hail Marys, an Our Fathers and if you have been really bad, an Act of Contrition and you are good to go.
The Catholic Church is an Evil entity. It is and has been for a very long time been infused with evil people. In fact I think the Church has been inhabited by Satanist since probably around the time of the Crusades or maybe before. The Knights of Columbus, the Jesuits are in line with the Mason and are the strong arm for the NWO, illuminati, George Soros, the Bilderbergs, the Rockefellers, three other old banker families I'm tired of straining my brain to identify.
I've lost my train of thought. Bottom line is believe what you want to believe and live by that code. Be true to yourself self, be kind, be strong, take shit only when it benefits you, save it and throw it back in the face of who gave it to you when it benefits you. Most importantly, Live so you like yourself. Mike
This my sound
fredsgirl1 wrote:
The constitution is a document that is both strong as iron and as weak as tissue paper. The framers understood that there are people in our society that demand they have supremacy over all others. Religion, all religions as far as I can see, will not be happy until they force everyone to worship as they worship. Anything less is an infringement of their rights. They do not consider the rights of others. As an atheist I am subjected to prothlizers coming to my door and trying to instruct me in their brand of religion with no understanding that they have no moral right to insult my intelligence in such a way. But if I insist that they stop they are outraged. For the record, I have never had an American muslim doing the same thing, or a buddhist. It seems to be the preferred behaviour of Christians.
The constitution is a document that is both strong... (
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"What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54: 17
My daughter was given a very pretty cross for her first Communion. She wore it to school one day and an ignorant teacher told her it was against the law for her to wear it to school because of the 'separation of church and state'. I told her if she wanted to wear it to go ahead and wear it. If the teacher wanted to try to discipline her for wearing it to be respectful and let me enlighten the teacher as to what the Constitution actually says. I didn't need to do anything as the kids took care of it themselves. Seems my daughter started a small revolt with her and all of her friends suddenly wearing crosses every day.
Long after fredsgirl, teabag09 & all the other anti-Catholics are gone from this life, the Catholic Church will be a force for peace, brotherhood and social stability. It will even survive this marxist pope. If it can survive the Borgias, it can survive Francis. Teabag09 even hints at the reason. We forgive and can seek forgiveness. Few anti-Catholics can and certainly no progressive is capable of forgiveness.
Our principles are timeless. Few others can make that claim.
padremike wrote:
It is appalling to me and demonstrative of the progress Satan has made in the destruction and compromise of Christianity. It is precisely your antagonism and hatred of Catholics, based on ignorance, and taught prejudice, that is the reason for Satan's success. If you knew scripture and Christian history you would know that from the beginning of the Christian faith there was established the hierarchy of deacons, bishops and priests. Read Timothy! When Luther was interdicted and excommunicated he lost his right to the sacred priesthood. Thereafter, no protestant church had access to valid sacraments. Luther was the first protestant. Within 80 years there were over 200 different denominations waring against one another and if you believe the Inquisition was horrible it was no less equal to the heresy trials and executions by the protestants. Rome admits the Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, was wrong. The protestants remain silent and lest we forget so called witches were burned right here in America. For 1500 years there were basically two Christian Churches, the East (orthodox) and the West (Roman). 500 years later, in America, there are approximately 25,000 different protestant denominations, all using the same basic scripture, all having different interpretations of scripture and all offering slightly different paths to attain heaven. And who does this division serve if not the father of lies? Practically every protestant denomination that sanctioned women clergy have now or are in the process of putting their blessing on homosexuality. The East and the West do not. Satan wants to destroy the Christian Church and who better to assist him than ignorant Christians? There has always been attacks against the faith. St Paul was plagued with the heresy of Gnosticism. Chances are you know not one formally defined heresy but you are an expert on.......your feelings, your ignorance. But, in truth, it's not your fault. You've never been taught church history. By example, consider today how our youth are being purposely dumbed down on American history. Why? Whose purpose does it serve?
FYI, I am not a Roman Catholic. And although I firmly believe that Protestants have been thoroughly robbed of their Christian heritage and do not have the fullness of the faith once delivered by Christ to the Apostles, I believe what Christ told the apostles who discovered others, not sanctioned to preach the Gospel, doing so -"if they're not against us, they are for us." Might I suggest you do likewise.
It is appalling to me and demonstrative of the pro... (
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There's some 600 church's here in Tulsa. Bible belt the say. Hard to figure out which ones the right one. Most are corporations with 501(c)3 tax exempt.
teabag09 wrote:
fredsgirl. I totally agree with you with the exception that they can try, it is their calling and right but you can tell them to get their fnkin asses off of your porch which is how I handle it. I was raised Catholic and I'm glad I was. Believe it or not if you believe in what you are taught in the Church when you are young, you have a lot of forgiveness and can get way with quite a bunch of stuff and be forgiven. A couple of Hail Marys, an Our Fathers and if you have been really bad, an Act of Contrition and you are good to go.
The Catholic Church is an Evil entity. It is and has been for a very long time been infused with evil people. In fact I think the Church has been inhabited by Satanist since probably around the time of the Crusades or maybe before. The Knights of Columbus, the Jesuits are in line with the Mason and are the strong arm for the NWO, illuminati, George Soros, the Bilderbergs, the Rockefellers, three other old banker families I'm tired of straining my brain to identify.
I've lost my train of thought. Bottom line is believe what you want to believe and live by that code. Be true to yourself self, be kind, be strong, take shit only when it benefits you, save it and throw it back in the face of who gave it to you when it benefits you. Most importantly, Live so you like yourself. Mike
This my sound
fredsgirl. I totally agree with you with the excep... (
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The 'Jesuits' and Black Pope are behind many things '"hidden'". IMHO
Kickaha wrote:
My daughter was given a very pretty cross for her first Communion. She wore it to school one day and an ignorant teacher told her it was against the law for her to wear it to school because of the 'separation of church and state'. I told her if she wanted to wear it to go ahead and wear it. If the teacher wanted to try to discipline her for wearing it to be respectful and let me enlighten the teacher as to what the Constitution actually says. I didn't need to do anything as the kids took care of it themselves. Seems my daughter started a small revolt with her and all of her friends suddenly wearing crosses every day.
My daughter was given a very pretty cross for her ... (
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Good example. Freedom of religion is NOT freedom from religion.
teabag09 wrote:
fredsgirl. I totally agree with you with the exception that they can try, it is their calling and right but you can tell them to get their fnkin asses off of your porch which is how I handle it. I was raised Catholic and I'm glad I was. Believe it or not if you believe in what you are taught in the Church when your are young, you have a lot of forgiveness and can get way with quite a bunch of stuff and be forgiven. A couple of Hail Marys, an Our Fathers and if you have been really bad, an Act of Contrition and you are good to go.
The Catholic Church is an Evil entity. It is and has been for a very long time been infused with evil people. In fact I think the Church has been inhabited by Satanist since probably around the time of the Crusades or maybe before. The Knights of Columbus, the Jesuits are in line with the Mason and are the strong arm for the NWO, illuminati, George Soros, the Bilderbergs, the Rockefellers, three other old banker families I'm tired of straining my brain to identify.
I've lost my train of thought. Bottom line is believe what you want to believe and live by that code. Be true to yourself self, be kind, be strong, take shit only when it benefits you, save it and throw it back in the face of who gave it to you when it benefits you. Most importantly, Live so you like yourself. Mike
This my sound
fredsgirl. I totally agree with you with the excep... (
show quote)
Willful ignorance, the worst kind!
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