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Nov 24, 2013 14:30:31   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
MarvinSussman wrote:
Q1: Is our so-called “national debt” really a serious debt, an interest-bearing burden that we must repay?
A1: No, It lacks the two essential qualities of a really serious debt. It’s a “Debt In Name Only”, a “DINO” -

1. A really serious debt is a burden. Our DINO is not now and never will be a burden for taxpayers.

Our DINO is the total value of all issued and still maturing treasuries. Who pays for the redemption of mature treasuries? Not the taxpayers! The buyers of newly-issued treasuries pay for the redemption of mature treasuries. It’s equivalent to a simple bond rollover done every day. In every auction, more bonds are demanded than are available from the supply of new issues. Auction winners get the safest, most liquid US dollar instruments; the losers are stuck with bank risk. If it were ever necessary, the Fed could even create an artificial demand for US Treasury bonds by buying large quantities of them in the open market with a few cost-free keystrokes. Where’s the taxpayers’ burden?

Our Treasury does not borrow money like a home-buyer taking a mortgage. It is rather a custodian of funds, like a bank accepting money offered for certificates of deposit. While a bank with too many bad loans can certainly have too many maturing CDs, our non-lending, fiat Treasury cannot have too many maturing bonds unless its deficit spending is causing harmful inflation. And that happens ONLY in a war or emergency requiring rationing. It NEVER happens during a recession. During prosperity, banks are ALWAYS the sole cause of inflation, creating over $6 of credit for every $1 of deficit spending. To curb inflation, don’t restrict infrastructure spending for the future! Regulate the banks!

The Treasury auctions bonds only because Congress requires that the proceeds finance the annual budget deficit. This requirement, now a relic of the former gold standard regime, was suspended during World War II, followed by 35 years of strong economic growth without harmful inflation. Now, under our fiat currency regime, Congress can again finance deficits out of thin air without auctions, the same way your corner bank financed your home mortgage.

Calling our DINO “unsustainable”, Wall Street con artists have panicked the public and many ignorant journalists and politicians in Congress and in the White House. It’s a hoax meant to yield a fortune in commissions by privatizing Social Security and Medicare. And, by bribing Congress into austerity, the Wall Street charlatans are nursing a huge army of unemployed labor to suppress middle class wages and working conditions. As our rotting infrastructure renders our industry incompetent, it is that growing army of unemployed labor that will become “unsustainable”.

2. A really serious debt must be repaid. Our DINO will never be repaid and should never be repaid.

Only a budget surplus can reduce our DINO. Since dropping the gold standard in1971, we have rarely had even a modest budget surplus. None is now in sight. To supply enough treasuries, the ONLY risk-free instruments used for trade collateral, insurance, pensions, bank reserves, etc., our Dino must continue to grow along with our economy. In fact, deflation and then depression will hit us hard unless big budget deficits replace the cash now flowing into China.

Q2: Could savers make a “run” on Treasury bonds?
A2: Yes, when savers can get risk-free returns from the Wall Street casino or from GM bonds, Illinois bonds, or Detroit bonds. Safety is not everything. Safety is the ONLY thing! That’s why the whole world relies on US bonds.

Q3. Could savers stop buying Treasury bonds?
A3. Sure, when nobody needs risk-free interest for insurance, pensions, trade collateral, bank reserves, etc., etc.

Q4: Could savers prefer foreign sovereign bonds?
A4: Yes, indeed! So far, almost two thirds of the world’s reserve currencies are in US dollars and half of all US Treasury bonds are held by foreigners. But if China’s infrastructure (and so, its productivity) becomes better than ours, its sovereign bonds could become safer than ours. But that could happen only if US voters worry more about our DINO than they worry about our falling bridges, failing schools, leaking sewers, aging power grids, etc., etc.
Q5: Won’t we need higher tax rates to pay for infrastructure?
A5: Congress does not use or need our taxes for spending. The IRS repossesses most federal spending ONLY to prevent harmful inflation and then destroys every cent of it. (Cash payments are shred and sold). For spending, Congress creates new money out of thin air, deposits it in the Treasury, writes checks, and makes the Treasury auction bonds to finance the deficit, which is limited ONLY by Congress and NEVER by the availability of revenue.

Every dollar spent and not repossessed by the IRS is saved by the private sector. Our annual budget deficit is exactly equal to the annual increase in private sector savings. YES! DEFICITS = SAVINGS! No deficits, no savings! A tax deficit is a savings surplus. It is money left on the table for the savers by Uncle Sam because he didn’t need it to prevent harmful inflation and because consumers need it to consume. We do not have a “national debt”. We have a “national savings”. The bad “Debt Clock” is really the good “Savings Clock”. How can we have too much savings?

Since bank loans must be repaid with interest and hard cash is moving to China, budget deficits (surpluses!) are the ONLY savings source that can sustain our economy. We need to DOUBLE our DINO / savings to return it to the World War II level that was followed by 35 years of prosperity without harmful inflation, even with very high tax rates. Our (DINO + total bank deposits) / GDP ratio is less than half of the comparable figure for China. Our M2 (money supply) / GDP ratio is half of Switzerland’s ratio and one quarter of Hong Kong’s ratio. Too much savings?
Q1: Is our so-called “national debt” really a seri... (show quote)


What were war bonds?

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Nov 24, 2013 15:23:08   #
Vacaman
 
Marvin, I get it, you do have a broad understanding of the world trade. I ask how the dept was paid in full under Clinton, and how the ntnl dept you say does not matter does in fact a rue interest, I have read our interest payment alone is greater than all of Americaa income monthly. So how is the borrowing from china and the continued printing of money going to save us? The dollar has been devalued to below the Euro, the us is not the standard, the American dollar is weaker than ever.

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Nov 24, 2013 18:15:44   #
MarvinSussman
 
klsolly wrote:
Your arguments about debt/inflation, national debt/public debt, are just background noise.I don't have answers, only observations of how the Obama Administration is beginning to show their true progressive left wing agenda. It is becomming increasingly harder for Americans to control their assets that they have worked for all their lives. Given the far-left lurch since Obama has been in office,we have seen a speed up of America’s decline. And remember Obama’s words to Russian President Dmitry Medvedev — that he would have “more flexibility” when he never had to face voters again. The danger to American prosperity and liberty is not economic inequality or unfettered markets but a rights-violating government.
Your arguments about debt/inflation, national debt... (show quote)


The President can only appoint cabinet members, judges, regulators, and the Fed chairman, with consent of Congress. He has absolutely no power over the economy. All taxing and spending powers are in Congress. Read the Constitution. Get an education.


Even the small stimulus ($800 B with an economy short by $3T) was dictated by Republican Senator Olympia Snowe. It's a Republican depression.

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Nov 25, 2013 12:53:52   #
alex Loc: michigan now imperial beach californa
 
klsolly wrote:
I am another Gray-Haired Geezer signing on. I like being left alone to enjoy my life. As luck would have it we aren't going to be left alone to enjoy our twlite years. We are at a turning point in the America and being an old fogey, geezers, senior citizens, "Baby Boomers", and in some cases dinosaur, doesn't give us the excuse to sit back and expect younger Americans to take over the helm. It was mostly the young people of this nation who elected Obama and the Democratic Congress. You fell for the "Hope and Change" which in reality was nothing but "Hype and Lies." Many of those who fell for the "Great Lie" in 2008 are now having buyer's remorse.
With all the education we gave you, you didn't have sense enough to see through the lies and instead drank the 'Kool-Aid.' Now you're paying the price and complaining about it. No jobs, lost mortgages, higher taxes, and less freedom.
I am another Gray-Haired Geezer signing on. I like... (show quote)


welcome aboard, I and four or five others here agree with you

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Nov 25, 2013 15:15:07   #
MarvinSussman
 
Vacaman wrote:
Marvin, I get it, you do have a broad understanding of the world trade. I ask how the dept was paid in full under Clinton, and how the ntnl dept you say does not matter does in fact a rue interest, I have read our interest payment alone is greater than all of Americaa income monthly. So how is the borrowing from china and the continued printing of money going to save us? The dollar has been devalued to below the Euro, the us is not the standard, the American dollar is weaker than ever.


Let's be clear. Under Clinton, the debt was not paid in full. The deficit was paid in full and then overpaid a little. That over payment took money out of the economy, leading to the 2002 recession.

Since deficits will remain forever, the "national debt" will keep rising forever and, depending on the bond interest rates, the debt interest expense may also rise forever. So what?

Congress creates fiat money out of thin air with cost-free keystrokes. When the money is spent on goods and services, it may affect the economy during full employment (or close to it).
During recessions, this spending increases employment, limited only by the threat of inflation, which is nowhere in sight.

When Congress spends money on debt interest expense during a recession, the money goes into investors' bank accounts, not into the purchase of goods and services. Thus it has no effect on the recession economy.

During prosperity, the money may be spent for investment and may contribute to inflation. In that case, it is the responsibility of the Fed to raise interest rates high enough to discourage investment. It is also the responsibility of Congress to restrain spending on infrastructure during prosperity and to promote spending during recessions.

In any case, the national debt will grow forever and never be a problem. Wall Street con artists have panicked the public and many ignorant journalists and politicians in Congress and in the White House. It’s a hoax meant to yield a fortune in commissions by privatizing Social Security and Medicare. And, by bribing Congress into austerity, the Wall Street charlatans are nursing a huge army of unemployed labor to suppress middle class wages and working conditions. As our rotting infrastructure renders our industry incompetent, it is that growing army of unemployed labor that will become “unsustainable”.

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Nov 25, 2013 17:22:52   #
MarvinSussman
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
What were war bonds?


During WW II, the government was paying EVERYBODY for four years to build nothing useful for a peacetime economy. With rationing, wage control and price control, there was no place to put after-tax money except a low interest bank account or a higher interest war bond. That's why we avoided harmful inflation.

The war was paid for largely by fiat money and the war bonds were redeemed with fiat money. That's why we had enough money to build the suburb where you probably live.

There's nothing like spending a lot of fiat money to bring prosperity. Too bad you old geezers have such a bad memory.

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Nov 25, 2013 17:25:37   #
MarvinSussman
 
Vacaman wrote:
Marvin, I get it, you do have a broad understanding of the world trade. I ask how the dept was paid in full under Clinton, and how the ntnl dept you say does not matter does in fact a rue interest, I have read our interest payment alone is greater than all of Americaa income monthly. So how is the borrowing from china and the continued printing of money going to save us? The dollar has been devalued to below the Euro, the us is not the standard, the American dollar is weaker than ever.


Let's be clear. Under Clinton, the debt was not paid in full. The deficit was paid in full and then overpaid a little. That over payment took money out of the economy, leading to the 2002 recession.

Since deficits will remain forever, the "national debt" will keep rising forever and, depending on the bond interest rates, the debt interest expense may also rise forever. So what?

Congress creates fiat money out of thin air with cost-free keystrokes. When the money is spent on goods and services, it may affect the economy during full employment (or close to it).
During recessions, this spending increases employment, limited only by the threat of inflation, which is nowhere in sight.

When Congress spends money on debt interest expense during a recession, the money goes into investors' bank accounts, not into the purchase of goods and services. Thus it has no effect on the recession economy.

During prosperity, the money may be spent for investment and may contribute to inflation. In that case, it is the responsibility of the Fed to raise interest rates high enough to discourage investment. It is also the responsibility of Congress to restrain spending on infrastructure during prosperity and to promote spending during recessions.

In any case, the national debt will grow forever and never be a problem. Wall Street con artists have panicked the public and many ignorant journalists and politicians in Congress and in the White House. It’s a hoax meant to yield a fortune in commissions by privatizing Social Security and Medicare. And, by bribing Congress into austerity, the Wall Street charlatans are nursing a huge army of unemployed labor to suppress middle class wages and working conditions. As our rotting infrastructure renders our industry incompetent, it is that growing army of unemployed labor that will become “unsustainable”.

Reply
 
 
Nov 25, 2013 18:53:02   #
LAwrence
 
I am 81 tears old and I remember what was going on in the war years. In my family at least, everyone was working and yes, there was rationing. But we never ate so good, My grandfather dealt with people who had empty lots and planted vegetables in four of them. I also helped him and learned a lot about taking car of ourselves in hard times. We bartered with those farmers who had livestock for many things not available in stores. People who work hard and take care of themselves will always do well. Of course the lazy who depend on government will always have a lot to complain about.

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Nov 26, 2013 07:17:20   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
MarvinSussman wrote:
During WW II, the government was paying EVERYBODY for four years to build nothing useful for a peacetime economy. With rationing, wage control and price control, there was no place to put after-tax money except a low interest bank account or a higher interest war bond. That's why we avoided harmful inflation.

The war was paid for largely by fiat money and the war bonds were redeemed with fiat money. That's why we had enough money to build the suburb where you probably live.

There's nothing like spending a lot of fiat money to bring prosperity. Too bad you old geezers have such a bad memory.
During WW II, the government was paying EVERYBODY ... (show quote)


I do have a bad memory, I can't seem to remember a thing before 1992. Would you mind explaining what "fiat money" means?

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Nov 26, 2013 09:56:24   #
bahmer
 
[quote=Augustus Greatorex]I do have a bad memory, I can't seem to remember a thing before 1992. Would you mind explaining what "fiat money" means?[/quote

I had to look this up as I was thinking it was money to buy the fiat automobile but alas I was wrong. Basically it is our own dollar bill which is becoming so useless because of government spending as to not be worth the paper it is printed on.

Definition of 'Fiat Money'
Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but is not backed by a physical commodity. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand rather than the value of the material that the money is made of. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith. Fiat is the Latin word for "it shall be".

Investopedia Says
Investopedia explains 'Fiat Money'


Because fiat money is not linked to physical reserves, it risks becoming worthless due to hyperinflation. If people lose faith in a nation's paper currency, like the dollar bill, the money will no longer hold any value.

Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, have no intrinsic value and are used solely as a means of payment. Historically, governments would mint coins out of a physical commodity such as gold or silver, or would print paper money that could be redeemed for a set amount of physical commodity. Fiat money is inconvertible and cannot be redeemed. Fiat money rose to prominence in the 20th century, specifically after the collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971, when the United States ceased to allow the conversion of the dollar into gold.

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Nov 26, 2013 10:26:07   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
[quote=bahmer][quote=Augustus Greatorex]I do have a bad memory, I can't seem to remember a thing before 1992. Would you mind explaining what "fiat money" means?[/quote

I had to look this up as I was thinking it was money to buy the fiat automobile but alas I was wrong. Basically it is our own dollar bill which is becoming so useless because of government spending as to not be worth the paper it is printed on.

Definition of 'Fiat Money'
Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but is not backed by a physical commodity. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand rather than the value of the material that the money is made of. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith. Fiat is the Latin word for "it shall be".

Investopedia Says
Investopedia explains 'Fiat Money'


Because fiat money is not linked to physical reserves, it risks becoming worthless due to hyperinflation. If people lose faith in a nation's paper currency, like the dollar bill, the money will no longer hold any value.

Most modern paper currencies are fiat currencies, have no intrinsic value and are used solely as a means of payment. Historically, governments would mint coins out of a physical commodity such as gold or silver, or would print paper money that could be redeemed for a set amount of physical commodity. Fiat money is inconvertible and cannot be redeemed. Fiat money rose to prominence in the 20th century, specifically after the collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971, when the United States ceased to allow the conversion of the dollar into gold.[/quote]

By that definition most war bonds were not repaid with fiat money. So he must mean something else. Right?

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Nov 26, 2013 10:58:23   #
MarvinSussman
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
I do have a bad memory, I can't seem to remember a thing before 1992. Would you mind explaining what "fiat money" means?


From the Latin: Fiat Lux! = Let there be light!

Fiat money! = Let there be money!

The value of fiat currency depends only on the credit of the US government, not a precious metal. Its value is also enhanced by the need of taxpayers to find enough fiat money to stay out of jail. It is this value which makes it universally accepted.

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Nov 26, 2013 11:23:03   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
MarvinSussman wrote:
From the Latin: Fiat Lux! = Let there be light!

Fiat money! = Let there be money!

The value of fiat currency depends only on the credit of the US government, not a precious metal. Its value is also enhanced by the need of taxpayers to find enough fiat money to stay out of jail. It is this value which makes it universally accepted.


Then since 1814 the US has been using "fiat money" even though 100% backed by gold? Since the amount of gold equivalence was set by the US government and taxes were required remitted in US currency since 1814.

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Nov 26, 2013 11:42:24   #
MarvinSussman
 
Augustus Greatorex wrote:
Then since 1814 the US has been using "fiat money" even though 100% backed by gold? Since the amount of gold equivalence was set by the US government and taxes were required remitted in US currency since 1814.


Fiat money is backed ONLY by the government's "full faith and credit". It is interesting that all the worry about deficit spending is due to the fact that blockheads cannot understand that fiat money has no intrinsic value.

The US government has absolutely no need to balance it's budget, anymore than you would need to balance your budget if you could legally print dollars in your attic. A fiat economy has to worry about only three things:
1. inflation, which is now days entirely due to a shortage of goods, not an excess of money. That cannot happen during a recession with 20 million people looking for full time work.

2. unemployment, which is due entirely to a lack of demand by consumers and can only be cured by deficit spending on much-needed infrastructure, killing two birds with one stone.

3. the foreign exchange rate, which can put us at an advantage or a disadvantage compared to other nations. An advantage accrues to the nation with the best infrastructure: education, transportation, communication, healthcare, and defense.

It has always amazed me how the flag-waving conservatives are the most dead set against deficit spending on infrastructure that would end unemployment and make us the superior nation, all because they are worried only about inflation, which is nowhere in sight and which can be stopped on a dime by raising interest rates. And they also want higher interest rates!!!

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Nov 26, 2013 12:09:22   #
Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE
 
MarvinSussman wrote:
Fiat money is backed ONLY by the government's "full faith and credit". It is interesting that all the worry about deficit spending is due to the fact that blockheads cannot understand that fiat money has no intrinsic value.

The US government has absolutely no need to balance it's budget, anymore than you would need to balance your budget if you could legally print dollars in your attic. A fiat economy has to worry about only three things:
1. inflation, which is now days entirely due to a shortage of goods, not an excess of money. That cannot happen during a recession with 20 million people looking for full time work.

2. unemployment, which is due entirely to a lack of demand by consumers and can only be cured by deficit spending on much-needed infrastructure, killing two birds with one stone.

3. the foreign exchange rate, which can put us at an advantage or a disadvantage compared to other nations. An advantage accrues to the nation with the best infrastructure: education, transportation, communication, healthcare, and defense.

It has always amazed me how the flag-waving conservatives are the most dead set against deficit spending on infrastructure that would end unemployment and make us the superior nation, all because they are worried only about inflation, which is nowhere in sight and which can be stopped on a dime by raising interest rates. And they also want higher interest rates!!!
Fiat money is backed ONLY by the government's &quo... (show quote)


Then war bonds were not repaid by "fiat money."

War bonds were sold during the Great Wars. The distinctions between an auction of bonds and a sale of bonds is limited to value estimation determined by buyer and seller, respectively.

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