boatbob2

ABORTION,is MURDER,I don't give a damn what obozo,or the other numb nuts say.

jefab

People need to be held responsible for their own actions. Abortion is an elective procedure. No one or no employer should be forced to cover any cost for a totally elective procedure. Grow up be responsible for your actions.

Singularity

When you retire or if you become disabled, will you use your social Security Benefits beyond the amount, to the penny, that you yourself paid into it?

You reject the concept of medical, auto and life insurance entirely?

Also, abortion is not always elective. In the Old Testament it was performed by the High Priest of the Temple and forced against a woman's will if her husband jealously suspected the fetus was fathered by another man but he lacked requisite proof.

MarvinSussman

Where is your proof that money is transferred from an employer to an abortion doctor? Or that the employer loses money due to an abortion?

BigMike Loc: yerington nv

That's silly. They teach a far superior kind of birth control...wait until you're married. Some listen, some don't. Why are the "don'ts" the church's fault and why must they be forced to pay for them? I'll tell you why. What you want is to see the Catholics hurt. Don't try to pretend that isn't so. And Protestants, who don't much seem to worry about contraceptives, but just want nothing to do with abortion, you lump in with the Catholics whenever it suits you. They teach "wait until you're married and want children"...which undeniably works. Some listen, some don't. How are Protestants responsible for the "don'ts"? My pastor refused to marry my wife and I until we'd gone through 2 months of premarital counseling! Sex = Children. Simple. Treat sex seriously. Sex isn't about porn and hedonism. I don't give a damn what pop culture says.

Let me ask you a simple question: Should churches get credit for the "dos"...the people who listened? Should they get credit for the unwanted pregnancies prevented when some listened to the solution and followed it? How many, Pete? Many tens of times more than the abortionists have eliminated since 73? They do their part, Pete...and all they get is attacked by people like you. That sucks!

Singularity

Sorry to interrupt, Mike. I know your response was directed toPeterS, but it is abundantly clear from the facts that teaching abstinence only to children and teenagers, predictably results in an increase in unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

As you are so eager to give credit where it is due, the RCC has the blood of millions of AIDS infected children, as well as adults, who were infected at birth by the mothers who were affected by their cheating husbands who still may not be "denied" their husbandly pleasures because..... CATHOLIC!


http://www.humantruth.info/birth_control.html#CKenya

Catholic Church Opposing Condoms in Africa, Despite HIV Threats

Africa suffers massively from HIV and AIDS, and is the continent that saw the first cases. 20 million people have died from AIDS in Africa and a further 22.5 million are infected with HIV. Many are born with it, as it often passes from mother to baby, and due to the nature of HIV, many people can have the virus but remain without symptoms, sometimes for decades.

The Catholic Church still strongly opposes the use of condoms in Africa, which is home to 135 million Catholics25. In Kenya, local Bishops have instead recommended that abstinence, "counseling" and "ethics" are used to prevent the spread of HIV, instead of condoms. The Catholic Church has run long-term campaigns against condoms. Dr Muga, Kenya, said that the government has reduced infection rate from 14% to 10% as a result of sex education and condom contraception, but still, the Catholic Church campaigns against sex education that teaches the value of contraception. Bishop Korir said that only the guilty were afraid and resorted to condoms, and that he wanted "no condom talk" (2003)26. Those who are born with it, or are infected with it because a partner unknowingly had it, are not exactly 'guilty'!

You might think that such crazy Bishops are a phenomenon peculiar to Africa. But the doctrine against condoms comes from the top, and the Vatican's official long-standing policy is propounded even in Europe and the USA. Pope Benedict, the German head of the Catholic Church from 2005 to 2013, delivered speeches in Africa in 2009 and reiterated, in the 21st century, his stance against condoms:

“Asked about the use of condoms to help tackle the scourge of AIDS, the pope restated, in unusually explicit terms, the church's position that these are not useful to "overcome" the epidemic, indeed their use actually makes the problem worse. He suggested the disease could be beaten through chastity, abstinence and "correct behaviour". [...] His statement sounded otherworldly at best, and crass and uncaring at worst. Merely wishing away human sexual behaviour does nothing for the potential victims of AIDS, many of whom are innocent under even the most moralistic definition of that word.”
The Economist (2009)25
In countries where the authorities are weak, science is ill-established and there are mass social problems, it would help a lot if the Catholic Church, with its powerful social networks, joined in with the efforts to stop the decay of society due to disease and overpopulation (two things that go hand-in-hand). But governments in Africa and South America, not to mention the USA and European countries such as Poland, have to fight against the church on such simple measures as birth control and condom use, and this battle often politicizes the operations of charities and welfare groups.

Singularity

Continuing from previous reference:

The Absolute Truth until 1930: All Birth Control Methods are Wrong

The Catholic Church has heavily opposed all forms of birth control for all of known history. The current document is Pope Paul VI's Humanae Vitae (1968)20, reflecting the opinion of Pope Piux XI in 1930 that the Catholic Church teaches absolute truth as passed down 'uninterruptedly from the beginning'21. Between 1816 and 1916 there were twelve separate condemnations of contraception issued by the Catholic Church's Sacred Penitentiary17. One thing is clear: For much of its history, the Catholic Church has strongly opposed contraception. In particular, it has opposed any method that intentionally prevents childbirth between a married man and woman.

3.2. The Absolute Truth from 1930: The Safe Period Method is OK

Despite this clear, long-standing and impractical standing, things slightly changed in 1930. The eternal truth passed down and taught by Catholics "from the beginning", slightly changed for the better, and the Casti Connubii allowed, in extreme situations, couples to use the 'safe period' or 'rhythm' method. This inaccurate method hardly works and doesn't stop the spread of disease, but, nonetheless, the position of the Catholic Church changed a little. This change in absolute, eternal doctrine of the infallible Pope (get the sarcasm?) was confirmed twice by Pope John XXIII in 1951.

3.3. Immoral

It is no wonder that Bryan Wilson, in his discussion of how Christian Churches have followed society, but lagged behind (therefore undermining their own claims of doctrinal moral truth), uses the history of birth control as his main example of the changes in society that have led to changes in Church doctrine22.

43% of Roman Catholic priests in England & Wales do not support the Church's ban on contraception (another 19% are unsure)
National Secular Society, Newsline (2003)23
All of this so far would be merely an academic curiosity, another example of zany religious clerics making odd declarations based on ever odder historical precedents. But The Catholic Church is also a heavy activist, and has caused uncountable numbers of poor people in South America and Africa to become infected with HIV and other STDs, contributed to the dangerous population explosion, and undermined charity organisations that support birth control, such as when the Birmingham Catholic Church boycotted Comic Relief because money raised might go to a family planning clinic that gave access to contraceptions to street children24. The Catholic Church causes very real suffering amongst very poor people as a result of its impractical policies.

BigMike Loc: yerington nv

The Catholics baffle me at times too!

You missed my point. It's the job of the church to teach abstinence, and as I said, most Protestants don't seem to have a problem with birth control. But teaching secular birth control is not the job of the church...especially to unmarried people. In the small church I went to, two unmarried girls became pregnant...including the pastor's daughter (naturally). The church rallied around the girls and their families stuck by them. Any church or family that doesn't do exactly that is abrogating their responsibility.

Ironically, Scripture itself points out that the RULE ("save it for marriage" in this case, but it can be any rule, law, command, whatever) has no power except to condemn the person who breaks it. Rules have no power to help people obey them. In fact, their very existence awakens within us the desire to break them! Adam and Eve are one of the most poignant examples of human nature in all literature. Just keep in mind that Christians who are familiar with Scripture know these kinds of things and Christians who get their info predigested by some TV preacher probably don't.

It's the job of parents, primarily, to teach their kids. When they don't, the reality is, kids learn somewhere else. That "somewhere else" is the arena in which the secular damage control plan operates. You can give a kid a condom, but can you make him use it? Some do, some don't. Isn't it the same for the folks teaching abstinence?

I ask you, should churches be recognized for the unwanted pregnancies abstinence prevents? Around 50 million unwanted pregnancies have been prevented by abortion since 73, and abortion rights folks ferociously defend it. Why wouldn't religious folks just as ferociously defend abstinence...especially congregations like the one I went to that took care of unwanted pregnancies themselves and were a burden to no one? Since 73, how many unwanted pregnancies have been prevented because...well...people abstained? If that were measurable, what would the numbers say? More than 50 mil, I bet...a lot more!.

I mentioned abortion mostly because there's a number attached to it and also know many abortions are not done as a method of birth control.

Now that I think about it, it's odd that statistics on abortion are available, but no one talks much about the number of unwanted pregnancies prevented by condoms and no one seems to even want to know the effect abstinence has had.

I digress! It's unrealistic to expect the church to teach secular birth control and it's unrealistic to expect the secular community to teach abstinence. They both have their job. The Catholics? All I can say is...I ain't Catholic!

boatbob2

HOW the hell,do you get the word ABSTAINENCE,and what it means,to a teenager,when the juices are flowing??????????

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

Why do you think the abortionist physician does them? He is paid through insurance premiums.

Singularity

Should we applaud the RCC for the unwanted pregnancies it incidentally prevents while it's policies and considerable political and social power are used in efforts to enforce its morality on others by methods that are responsible for increasing the overall number of unwanted pregnancies? Ummm. Sure.

Credit where credit is due. Debit where debit is due. Accountable. Present balance = millions of dead babies in Africa. Are you arguing pro life or anti abortion?

Again, from the previous source...:
"In countries where the authorities are weak, science is ill-established and there are mass social problems, it would help a lot if the Catholic Church, with its powerful social networks, joined in with the efforts to stop the decay of society due to disease and overpopulation (two things that go hand-in-hand). But governments in Africa and South America, not to mention the USA and European countries such as Poland, have to fight against the church on such simple measures as birth control and condom use, and this battle often politicizes the operations of charities and welfare groups."

Singularity

Sorta like nobody praises wishful thinking over pertinent effective action?

Am I looking for more of a point than you intended or still missing yours entirely?

BigMike Loc: yerington nv

You didn't answer my question. Neither did the first person I asked it of.

Singularity

The cost to the employer to supply insurance coverage to an employee does not vary by one cent if the person if the person accesses it for any specific medical procedure. That is sorta the whole point of insurance.

So the RCC is using the fallacious notion of vicarious guilt (notice how it crops up everywhere?) claiming they will be tainted by the woman's sin when she uses her insurance (part of her employment compensation package.... By extension, why wouldn't the RCC also be tainted if she uses her salary) to pay for the abortion!

BigMike Loc: yerington nv

I'm sorry. You're still ignoring my post. Self-control is 100% effective and pertinent with those who practice it...and a lot do. You call it "wishful thinking" because you can't measure it. Have you measured the effectiveness of abstinence? Can you tell me abstinence doesn't help? Can you tell me it doesn't work for those who practice it?

Again...I'm not Catholic and I don't live in Poland or Argentina. We have enough of our own problems and the Poles and Argentinians are adults who can determine their own path. Leave me out of your fight with the Catholics and I'll be happy!