TexaCan wrote:
Hi Tom, A newborn is not evilā¦ā¦ā¦They are precious in the sight of our Lord and Savior! However, we are all born sinners. Below is a site that I often use in discussions concerning the Bible. I hope this helps you understand why many on this thread is making the claim that babies are born sinners! I have to admitā¦..they sure are cute sinners! š¤. They are definitely born butt-naked and hungry!
Are we all born sinners?
Yes, the Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).
Humanity is totally depraved; that is, all of us have a sinful nature that affects every part of us (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 7:14). The question is, where did that sinful nature come from? Were we born sinners, or did we simply choose to become sinners sometime after birth?
We are born with a sinful nature, and we inherited it from Adam. āSin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all peopleā (Romans 5:12). Every one of us was affected by Adamās sin; there are no exceptions. āOne trespass resulted in condemnation for all peopleā (verse 18). We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.
Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. āFolly is bound up in the heart of a childā (Proverbs 22:15). David says, āSurely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived meā (Psalm 51:5). āEven from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading liesā (Psalm 58:3).
Before we were saved, āwe were by nature deserving of wrathā (Ephesians 2:3). Note that we deserved Godās wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.
We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh: āThose who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please Godā (Romans 8:8). We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life (Ephesians 2:1). We lack any inherent spiritual good.
No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth. Toddlers are naturally selfish, with their innate, although faulty, understanding that everything is āmine.ā Sinful behavior comes naturally for the little ones because they are born sinners.
Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adamās family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into Godās family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that āto all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godāchildren born not of natural descent . . . but born of Godā (John 1:12ā13).
https://www.gotquestions.org/born-sinners.htmlHi Tom, A newborn is not evilā¦ā¦ā¦They are precious... (
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Good morning Tex, another day in paradise.
I'd like to share with you some of my understanding regarding Augustanian theology on original sin adopted by the West and Calvin's "Tulip" wherein we find total depravity even today.
In the Orthodox view, guilt can only result from an act which one has committed. We can't sin for another person. We believe that we need a savior to overcome death and our separation from God, to be forgiven our own transgressions, but not to be forgiven for Adam's transgression. With regard to original sin, the difference between Orthodox Christianity and the West may be outlined as follows:
In the Orthodox Faith, the term āoriginal sinā refers to the āfirstā sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the āconsequencesā of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word āoriginalā may be seen as synonymous with āfirst.ā Hence, the āoriginal sinā refers to the āfirst sin."
In the West, humanity likewise bears the āconsequencesā of the āoriginal sinā of Adam and Eve, Death. However, the West also understands that humanity is likewise āguiltyā of the sin of Adam and Eve, the condition into which humanity is born, a condition in which guilt as well as consequence is involved.
In the Orthodox Christian understanding, while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin which is death, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which again is death.
One might look at all of this in a completely different light. Imagine, if you will, that one of your close relatives was a mass murderer. He committed many serious crimes for which he was found guiltyāand perhaps even admitted his guilt publicly. You, as his or her son or brother or cousin, may very well bear the consequences of his actionāpeople may shy away from you or say, āWatch out for himāhe comes from a family of mass murderers.ā Your name may be tainted, or you may face some other forms of discrimination as a consequence of your relativeās sin. You, however, are not personally guilty of his or her sin.
Since Orthodox never accepted the idea of original sin from Adam that resulted in total hereditary depravity, the idea that humans are so fallen that they cannot choose to follow God in and of themselves, they have to be called by God, is also rejected. The difference in viewing the fall of humanity results in a very different view ofĀ salvation, which to the Orthodox is a life-long continuous process.Ā In western protestantism salvation is a one time event.Ā Salvation to the Orthodox is more like what some protestant denominations callĀ sanctification. Sanctification isĀ the Holy Spirit's work of making us holy over time.
I was both baptised and raised in traditional Western Augustanian understanding of original sin. It is still my initial "muscle memory" go to place when thinking about it yet I now accept ancient Orthodox theology & understanding, it makes more sense to me. How can anyone look upon a baby and see a creature totally depraved?
Then comes the issue of Baptism. What does baptism actually accomplish? Does it not free us from death? Does it not make us a child of God by adoption? Does it not establish a covenant relationship with God in much the same way a Jewish boy child was circumcised on the 8th day after his birth and thereby established a covenant relationship with God? Baptism mean being born again, our old man being crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. In baptism we rise up a new person into the life of Christ. Orthodox baptism of a baby includes anointing the child with chrismation which bestows the Holy Spirit.
BTW - When Jesus was baptised it wasn't that Jesus needed baptism. Baptism needed Jesus.
Well holy moly, did I get carried away so early, before breakfast too. Anyhow, I thought only to share some older non- Augustanian understandings with you. Augustine also later rejected his thoughts on total depravity as I recall.
I'm off to get a haircut later today. Am I happy that I didn't inherit any of Samson's genes. I might not be able to make it home if I did. š¤£
Pax my brother.