rumitoid

A point I and a number of others have made over and over to little or no avail: if we don't start building bridges to the other side, no matter how tough and risky the work, America will become permanently divided and fall.

I would ask all that bother to read this to please open their heart and mind in at least an objective view if not a welcoming one for the sake of our beloved nation.

Cut and paste from http://www.patheos.com/blogs/samrocha/2014/05/fear-of-generosity/

"If you speak to someone about something controversial, like abortion or war, in intimate and full confidence, you will usually hear a vastly different story from the one we routinely hear and see in public, no matter what the opinion is or what side is taken. This is understandable. There are real liabilities to being open and honest. Anyone who has told the unvarnished truth many times in public has been punished for it.

"Liabilities aside, there is still a serious problem: in place of sincere, but measured, conversation and dialogue, we get defensive postures mostly intended to hold one’s ground. Sometimes this gains ground, almost unwittingly, but the gains and losses come and go, the former are celebrated and the latter ignored, and soon a fear of generosity becomes the more significant outcome."

And some more:

"I’ve heard it said so many times: “I would be willing to consider X view, contrary to my own, and I think it has some merit, but the other side is using this to find an opening and muscle their way in.” The slippery slope fallacy abounds not so much for logical reasons, but for temperamental ones. People seem to fear the possibility of granting ground or goodwill to their opposition.

"In fact, there are very few subjects of real controversy where I suspect that any side, no matter how crazy sounding, is operating out of malice or bad intentions. Sure, false consciousness plagues us all, and blind spots are always lurking, but when it comes to what people intend, I am not so sure that good intentions can’t win the day.

"Of course, as Ivan Illich reminds us, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

"But conversation relies on generosity, the ability to offer your interlocutor the assumption that they are not speaking in bad faith in advance, the assumption of good will and, yes, even good intentions. If we cannot be generous, then we simply cannot communicate. There is no conversation between ungenerous combatants. We can’t even fight — and we don’t, we just repeat the same, tired refrains to people who already agree with us and give angry gotcha replies to the one’s who venture into our territory."

Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE

Sam,
When you take your advice, I might listen

rumitoid

How you live depends on how I live? This seems like a great compliment. Are you saying you can't do the right thing without my example? So if I had not gone to college, you would not have done so, presuming you went?
Or are you blaming me for any breaches you may have committed regarding civility? "Well, rumi does it so it can't be bad, so I will do it." Or even though you may feel it isn't right to do so, you will continue until I mend my ways? Interesting.

rumitoid

Most of the ugly exchanges are simply self-fulfilling prophecy: the other side is spoken to as stupid and evil, and, dang, most reply in kind giving a person the "I told you so" assurance. Pre-suppositions about the others we speak to, bringing in anything other than the topic up for discussion, is not intelligent debate; it is just airing our prejudice.

Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE

Sam,

Wasn't the whole point of your post to say people respond to how you approach them?

If you don't approach people openly, why should I pay attention when you say we should approach people openly?

You are guarded in what you say to me, why should I be open to you?

Let's examine your response:

"How you live depends on how I live?"
This post is not about how one ought to live, but one ought to communicate. This question is not open, but extremely guarded.

"This seems like a great compliment."
Rather than taking it openly as a compliment, and thanking me, you reservedly state it "seems." As if it were merely the appearance of a compliment.

"Are you saying you can't do the right thing without my example?"
You offensively assert your advice is "the right thing," even if you don't take your own advice.

Do you see where this is going, Sam?

Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE

Many time it is presumption of being belittled, than actual belittling that is the problem. So often you or I presume a belittling attitude of the other, rather than the honest answer it was/is.

I do not like the hateful rhetoric against conservatives and fundamentalists exhibited daily at patheos.com, I presume when you cite it, you are attacking me personally.

rumitoid

First, who is "Sam"?

Next, you are making me the topic instead of commenting on the subject I presented. Your prerogative; have at it.
This happens with us nearly all the time. I say something and you take it nearly always to be saying the opposite or just different than my intent. What we have is a consistent failure to communicate. Is it me or you? Both? Making it personal is one of the dominant traits of the fear of generosity. Civilly responding simply to the topic as presented overcomes that fear. Just one man's opinion.

rumitoid

Oops placed comment in wrong thread.

Augustus Greatorex Loc: NE

Rumitoid,

Sam Rocha

No. You made you the topic of this thread by presuming I was addressing you. You responded as if you were Sam. Should I uncivilly say I wasn't addressing you? Or should I presume you know more about whether you are Sam than I do, and attempt to treat you civilly?

Kirk

Rumtoid I have been reading these posts for about two years now. I only read and did not post any comments. For the reason that I noticed most of you are very articulate and educated. I only have a high school education and went right into the workplace. I've enjoyed many of the posts and had some great laughs and have learned a great deal. I have noticed your numerous pleads for civility in the discussions. Of course we need that to have balance. But I've noticed a few posters that are very insulting. As a white American man and Christian I walk away feeling as though I've done something horribly wrong to some of these people. I am noticing a very aggressive strike at white American Christians and stereotyping all of us because of a few. I am so tired of hearing about teabaggers and white goobers and Christian wingnuts. So I am going out on a limb here and saying that the majority of insulting words are coming from the left. And that most conservative people on this site are reasonable and if they say something mean it's usually in response. I don't believe it is equal. The scary thing to me Rumitoid is that things here in USA are seeming to be getting worse. And the comments are getting more aggressive. Sometimes it feels like reasoning is not an option, only defeat.

rumitoid

I did not make the "topic of this thread by presuming I was addressing you"; I made the topic of this thread Fear of Generosity. Do you know Sam Rocha? It is my thread on which I chose to place an article. That you might mistakenly think my name is Sam is possible somehow. You did not correct what you really meant after several exchanges: why? And why talk to Sam Rocha when he cannot respond?

rumitoid

Thank for your very reasonable and civil response. You strike me as intelligent and principled so please speak up in the future.

Some things you will notice about my threads: I attract a lot of insult and name calling ("hemroid" the most common but not bad). Rarely do I get any supporting posts from those considered on the far left or even just liberal. The only people I count as friends here are conservatives and a few that I think most would consider independent with a right dent. I agree with your estimation that the comments have grown "more aggressive," yet my experience, as many consider me a liberal, sees an increase of virulence coming from the Right. And if I only relied on my experience or took the attacks personally, I would fail to notice the general or overall comments at OPP. I see them as equal, just from weighing what is on page 1 at the Main.

In the ongoing Partisan War we are engaged in or witnessing here and across the nation, claims of atrocities, lies, distortions, insults, and name calling are definitely equal; the nature of this game of politics. But it has ceased being a game, in my eyes. Yet most have fallen so far into a rut that all many can say is just rote ugliness. Very sad. I thought this article brilliant and actually believed it could possibly be that straw that broke the back of this impasse. Silly me. As the article pointed out, it got very quickly personal with barely a notice of the principles the author spoke of and traits described. Fear of Generosity was no longer the topic; I was. Not a person seemed to reflect on how this fear may effect their attitude, outlook, and words. Pointing a finger is so much easier, and seems to some far more righteous.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Kirk, I cannot be the only one who notices how well written and articulate your post is. I see no reason for you to take a backseat to anyone with regards to expressing your views or opinions. Join the fray more often. You certainly have shown the capacity for doing so. :wink: :thumbup:

rumitoid

Seconded!

Snoopy

Rumitoid

I have always been impressed by your well thought out posts.

I was also saddened when your comments drove someone from OPP and I stated so.

On your subject: Bojester always starts his posts with name calling and insults. Brian immediately follows continuing on the same vein. This sets the tone for anything that follows and continues with various negative comments.

Other posters feel attacked and respond accordingly. It is very difficult to make any positive movement.

On the political front: there is enough blame to go around for both parties and we ALL should admit that fact and move on. As Americans we will never solve our problems if we spend our time and energies attacking each other.

Snoopy