Loki Loc: Georgia

*****
"They forced Jefferson to sign an agreement not to attack Canada anymore, after which all captured territories were returned. That's when the U.S. decided to attack Mexico instead
Now that's odd; Why would they force Jefferson to sign a treaty agreeing not to attack Canada when his presidency ended in 1809? It's a good thing they didn't ask James Madison to sign it, since he was the president.
The Mexican War did not start until 1846. We decided to attack Mexico when they attacked Texas. After Texas became an independent republic, they joined the Union in 1845. They were subjected to attacks by Mexican troops and we declared war. It seems Mexico was unwilling to recognize the Rio Grande as the international border
Can we add these to the ever growing list of thing you think you know that just ain't so?

Morgan

Hey speak for yourselves, US women rock in soccer

Radiance3

===============
Democrats brought 31 million illegals, Muslim terrorists, free loaders, rapists, MS13, and Sanctuary City criminals into the United States. These are their armies to fight for them, commit crimes against the democrat opponents, kill and terrorize them.

Radiance3

===============
Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Birds of the same brains.

straightUp Loc: California

That's the American excuse.


I didn't realize this was a pride thing. I mentioned the Civil War because of the fate of racial discrimination. I forgot you're from Georgia, so naturally that's a chip on your shoulder. Get over it. No one has to carry the guilt of what their ancestors did. Just remember their mistakes.


That's an oxymoron.


Whatever makes you feel better.

straightUp Loc: California

Yeah, they do. Of course, they don't have as much competition as the men do... many of the cultures around the world that promote soccer discourage or even prohibit women from competing.

Loki Loc: Georgia

"I didn't realize this was a pride thing. I mentioned the Civil War because of the fate of racial discrimination. I forgot you're from Georgia, so naturally that's a chip on your shoulder. Get over it. No one has to carry the guilt of what their ancestors did. Just remember their mistakes."
First, I am not "from" Georgia. I have lived here several years.
Which mistakes did my ancestors make? Your ancestors lost. Twice. Then your ancestors had to depend on my ancestors to save their bacon in WWI and WWII.
Oh, that racial discrimination thing..... Four Northern states allowed slavery and were unaffected by the Emancipation Proclamation. At least four Northern states or territories had laws prohibiting free blacks from settling there. They wanted blacks free, just free somewhere else.
In New York, blacks were lynched. Ulysses S Grant was married to a slave owner who did not free her slaves until forced to do so by the ratification of the 13th Amendment. William Sherman, whose infamous march to the sea did so much damage to noncombatants in Georgia, was ambivalent about slavery. His troops committed all sorts of atrocities against blacks in their march to the sea. Rapes were especially common, pillaging was encouraged and murder was not unheard of.
On the two occasions Lee's army was in the North, Confederate soldiers who committed these acts were flogged, shot or hung, depending on the severity.
Admittedly, I digressed on the last paragraph.
You would have us believe that the British won an unbroken string of victories in the War of 1812. There were quite a few American victories, and a surprising number of American defeats were when General William Hull commanded the US forces. He was an incompetent.
I realize you are from the UK and a Californian from a very young age, so I can understand why you have so many facts about US history wrong.

Morgan

Hey Straight, nice to attach a face with the name, you do have a beautiful wife and daughter and wow your son looks just like you! Are you a surfing family?

Morgan

In defense of Britain, if that were true about no real opposition I don't think they would have ever become a world power. Let's give credit where credit is due, otherwise, it discounts our own credit for defeating them. Other reasons for the 1812 war was the British economic blockade of France and the British support of hostile Indian tribes along the Great Lakes.

As far as I can see every country has things to be ashamed of, we have what has been done to Native American's, as recently as Trump and the pipeline.

Morgan

According to the New York Historical Society...

[In 1799, New York passed a Gradual Emancipation act that freed slave children born after July
4, 1799, but indentured them until they were young adults. In 1817 a new law passed that would free slaves born before 1799 but not until 1827. By the 1830 census, there were only 75 slaves in New York and the 1840 census listed no slaves in New York City.]

You don't state when those hangings took place but even so, there were Southerners who also resided in New York, and there are always exceptions to the rule, those that will not accept the new rules of law... these hangings may have been demonstrative of just that condition.

Loki Loc: Georgia

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html&title=The+New+York+City+Draft+Riots+of+1863&desc

After the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, there were still about 250,000 slaves in northern and border states who remained loyal whose status was unchanged until ratification of the 13th Amendment 2 years later.

Loki Loc: Georgia

I was referring to the performance of the British military in the War of 1812. StraightUp apparently thinks that the Brits steamrollered the Americans right up until they lost. This is not the case. US forces were badly beaten in Canada and the northwest, due more to the incredible stupidity and cowardice of General William Hill than any brilliance on the part of the Brits. The Brits lost badly a couple of times around Baltimore. The fledgling US Navy performed far better than anyone expected, winning several engagements with British naval forces. The British at the time had unquestionably the best navy in the world.

straightUp Loc: California

So, you ARE taking this personally as a pride thing (and missing the point I made earlier about the Civil War). But since your spouting such nonsense, I may as well add some facts. The War of 1812 goes down in most history books as a stalemate. Wikipedia calls it a "military stalemate". This leaves the effective result up to interpretation. In American schools the war is glossed over where it's acknowledged there WAS a war but not much more than that.

The press gangs you mentioned did happen... It was an underhanded game that navies played in those days. The U.S. did the same thing... In fact, that's where the the term "Shanghaiing" comes from as sailors in San Fransisco would often get drunk and pass out then wake up later on board a ship they never signed up for and bound for Shanghai. While this was the only excuse American historians can find that sounds somewhat justified, a far more compelling "cause" of war was the American aggression on Canadian territory, which Americans were deeply divided on. The Federalists opposed the expansion into Canada and they also opposed the war. I accidentally mentioned Jefferson earlier but I meant to say Madison (the other famous anti-Federalist) many Americans at the time called it "Madison's War" - a common response to unpopular wars such as "Bush's War". I'm sure the unpopularity of the war had something to do with the defeats Americans suffered at the hands of the British, who at the time was also fighting Napoleon's French empire. In a sense, the British thrashed the Americans with one hand tied behind their back.

Americans started with 7,000 troops... and by the end 3,700 American troops were killed in action.
The British started with 5,000 troops... and by the end 1,960 British troops were killed in action. (Most the British troops were in Europe fighting the French)

Also, the British burned down the White House in a capture the flag moment that as I said, forced the U.S. to agree to stop invading Canadian territory. So your claim that the British lost is hilarious. BTW, the British were fighting the French during the American Revolution too and it's seriously doubtful the Americans would have won without help from the French. Fact is... the only time the U.S. ever started fights with the British was when the British were already fighting the French.

The U.S. presence in WW1 was slight. Even the Italians had more of an impact. I know the Brits tend to laugh at the egotistical attitude of Americans regarding these wars but I think they find our attitude about WW2 a little less amusing, probably because it's a more recent memory. The British and Germans are the only nations that fought from start to finish without switching sides. After the French were defeated things got pretty intense for the British. They begged the U.S. to help but the U.S. had no interest fighting the Nazis, in fact many of them were doing business with the Third Reich, including IBM, Standard Oil and GM and FDR was getting death threats for suggesting we help the British fight them. My mother lost her family to a German bombing raid during that time. It wasn't until the Japanese attacked Perl Harbor that the U.S. joined but by that time, Germany was already on the run having already been served their first defeats at the hands of the British and the Russians. America won the war against the Japanese in the Pacific, but it was the British and Russians that won the war against Germany in Europe. Considering what Germany was developing, it's a pretty safe bet that the British actually saved America.

I'm sure you will disagree with all of this and that's fine, but I'm not going to spend my day arguing about military history with someone who can't climb off his patriotic high horse. We will just have to agree to disagree.


There are always exceptions to the prevailing patterns Loki. My intention wasn't to get into a long elaborate pissing contest about "ancestors" and historic details. I was was just razzing your side about what ultimately happened to a movement that supported racial inequality when they took it to the extreme.


Whatever make you feel better about losing, Loki ;)


Okie-dokie.

straightUp Loc: California

Thanks Morgan... I guess you could call us a surfing family, though we haven't done much surfing since moving north to the San Fransisco area, although we snowboard more, with Tahoe being so close. :)

straightUp Loc: California

That's a good point to make although we didn't actually defeat them. ;)


Again, different sides will have different perspectives. The British and French were at war, so the blockade kinda makes sense and the British *did* support the Indians but there is evidence that the American settlers were just as hostile as the Indians were and to be fair, a lot of the hostility occurred in Canadian territory, which begs the question... What were the Americans doing there? Still, Madison did have a laundry list of "grievances" that he used to justify an unpopular war. I can remember Bush doing the same thing to encourage Americans to support his invasion of Iraq. It happens.


Absolutely. I know Loki get's annoyed when I step on his patriotic folklore, but more times than not I am responding to his claim that America is the flawless savior of the world. LOL. My father (who was also conservative) had the same sort of pride about his British heritage, crediting the British Empire for "civilizing" the world. Having been educated in the U.S. I found the conflicts in perspective very early in life and it taught me to be more objective. As far as I know, every nation that reached world power status has done some awful things. The British were horrible when they ruled the world and the U.S. is no better. Both "empires" dressed themselves up in heavenly rhetoric, complete with halos and insist their own s**t doesn't stink.

One one hand, it's pretty amusing but on the other I think the inability to see one's own nation as anything but angelic does interfere with a person's willingness to confront his own nation's bad behavior. From what I can see liberals tend to be a little better at acknowledging the faults of their own nation. Conservatives are hopelessly dedicated to their robes and halos. LOL