Steve700

The leftist wants Free health care, free higher education, some wealth redistribution and a guaranteed living wage whether working or not. -- and to have the government fulfill the role of families and Christian charities. And of course by working diligently to that end, they feel themselves to be noble and caring without ever having to take money out of their own pocket.

A major problem of leftist thinking is the fallacy of the 'Zero Sum Game. (for every gain for one person, there must be an equal loss for another, so the net change in wealth is 0) They believe that just because someone got richer that there had to be someone else who had gotten poorer. They fail to realize that there is nothing wrong with self-interest and consumption. That is what has built Western civilization. Just because someone gets rich does not mean that someone else gets poor. They view economics as if there is only so much wealth. As if it were a pie of a certain size, and it's Unevenly divided, but that is not how it is. Wealth is created and there is essentially no limit to the amount of wealth that can be created. You can

In order to be successful in business you have to create something that is equal or better at a lower price than someone else. You have to take a huge risk, hoping to make a profit, employ a bunch of people, probably borrow money and then you have a 80% chance of going out of business. In the 1st year, you're likely to not even turn a profit and then you have to do the same thing again next year. Then to make the business expand you have to innovate, do research, and development, And then along the way, people may steal your ideas and you're probably going to get sued. Then if you are successful and make a profit you're going to get rewarded, but who is going to persevere through all that if they can't keep the rewards they have so diligently earned. Beyond all that, the left doesn't really seem to take into consideration the efficiency lost by having bureaucrats run things and the fact that these hard working, risk-taking entrepreneurs are providing jobs and a livelihood for so many people. Instead, to the Marxist, they are slaves. The truth about Marxism is that it is much more about hating the rich (who have worked so hard and benefited so many) that it is about helping the poor. Understand that and never forget it. The truth about the left. Is that their ideology is much more about hating the rich (which in their ideology is the oppressor) than it is about helping the poor. (That Marxist ideology used as victims and the oppressed and the workers as slaves) At the core of the left is a terribly unhappy, self absorbed person who was never able to attain success. Because of that, like a petulant child, they spite those who have attained the success that they themselves, were never able to attain. So they would rather dictate to you how you should live and watch the world burn rather than muster up the initiative to make of their lives, what they will through their own hard work and talent.

From Idsuttonjr:

Steve 700: Spot on....I've enclosed more ammo!

Liberal comments about being social engineers is a small window into the greater liberal mindset. Namely, that it is their duty and right to create society as they see fit. They automatically assume they have the greater and higher moral ground and that their views and opinions on “morality, “rights”, and “government” are more virtuous and thus need to be implemented at almost any cost and against almost any opposition or argumentation. They use their positions of influence or power to achieve these ends. Whereas, typically those who believe in individual responsibility and consequences for one’s actions usually will tolerate others views and usually do not seek to impose those views in the same aggressive manner because they believe in the individual and freedom of the individual rather than the collective hive mentality of their opposition. Interestingly, the liberal proclaims tolerance and open mindedness when in fact it is their way or the highway when it comes to morality, government, or rights. As many liberals hold no real virtuous faith in a higher power it is all left up to them as to what constitutes right or wrong in their brand of justice, politics, and society which all just boils down to what they want and what their opinion is, and you know what they say about opinions?

truthiness

.................

Ahhh yes, Steve and his sidekick SuttonJr now bring us the economics of von Mises and Hayak corrupted by the the usual "free market being polluted by social engineering" critique. The "free market" itself is not an objective reality ordained by the gods of liberty. Rather, the "free market" is just another social institution that is supported and assured by a rights-obligation framework that delineates what rights and what obligations actors in the market should take. In the 18th century the "free market" decided that certain persons would by force contribute their labor without payment (slavery). In the 19th century the "free market"decided that very young poor children would contribute their labor for 12 hours a day for a pittance (child labor). This use of forced labor, as an example, did make some of Steve's people rich, but they did not "work so hard" (thank you, Massa) and they did not 'benefit so many' (thank you, Mr Robber Baron) as Steve would have us believe.

Yes, we now anticipate Steve's response that things are all fine now here in the 21st century--that the market has corrected itself--no slavery and child labor laws. To save you the trouble--here is the response:

"The crucial point is this: labor, land, and money are essential elements of industry; they also must be organized in markets; in fact, these markets form an absolutely vital part of the economic system. But labor, land, and money are obviously not commodities - the postulate that anything that is bought and sold must have been produced for sale is completely false in regard to them. Labor is only another name for human activity which goes with life itself, which in its turn is not produced for sale but for entirely different reasons, nor can that activity be detached from the rest of life, be stored or mobilized. Land is only another name for nature, which is not produced by man, but exists on its own for its own purposes. Money, finally, is merely a token of purchasing power which, as a rule, is not produced at all, but comes into being through the mechanism of banking of state finance. None of them is produced for sale. The commodity description of labor, land, and money is entirely fictitious."

"Nevertheless, it is with the help of this fiction that the actual markets for labor, land, and money are [now]organized [by Steve's heroes who have corrupted the free market]. They are being actually bought and sold on the market; their demand and supply are real magnitudes; and any
measures or policies that would inhibit the formation of such markets would directly prevent the free market from functioning. The "commodity fiction", therefore, supplies a vital organizing principle in regard to the whole of society affecting almost all its institutions in the most varied way, namely, the principle according to which no arrangement or behavior should be allowed to exist that might prevent the actual functioning of the market mechanism on the lines of the commodity fiction. However, to allow the free market to be sole director of the fate of human beings, nature, and the means of exchange would result simply in the demolition of society, nature, and the economy itself!," which is exactly what we see taking place before our very eyes.

Steve and jr, you long for the good old days that never were and from which we are moving even further from.

Have a wonderful weekend as you contemplate the new trade constraints on your not so "free" market.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

Having read all three opinions and pondered them. I agree more with Steve and Sutton over your opinion Truthiness, mainly because your tone as being a superior human with superior ideas and thus must be correct. Basically, that tone makes me reject everything you tried to say. You, sir, are what I call a snob. You don't have to be one, you choose to be one. I never follow or vote for someone with such a condescending attitude as you exhibit. You still have much to learn about persuading people to your way of thinking. Maybe that's why there is such a great divide in our nation. Labor, land, and money are not commodities? Then why do different types of labor earn different incomes? If the land isn't a commodity, why does private property even exists and requires deeds, titles, mineral rights etc... Isn't money a commodity? If not, why do interest rates exist? You sound like a slick communist or socialist selling your failed ideas in a new package.

Iamdjchrys Loc: Decatur, Texas

Thanks for saying so succinctly exactly what I was thinking!

buffalo Loc: Texas

"I never follow or vote for someone with such a condescending attitude as you exhibit." Did you vote for trumpy?

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

You know I did. Are you going to try and convince me Hillary was a better candidate or person? That would be a waste of your time. But, go ahead, waste your time, it's your time.

truthiness

------
Thanks peewee, I didn't mean to sound snobish, just making a point with emphasis and clarity. However, the fact that you did not see snobishness in Steve700 original post makes me think that you had a bias toward them to begin with (and your language proves it), so your pretense of thinking that you looked at this at the beginning with an open mind does not compute. Funny how when the right makes a point with vigor, it is acceptable even laudable; when progressives make a point with vigor, it is the reason that the country is divided--that is close to hypocricy, peewee, and I think you know it. You just aren't willing to admit your bias---ohh, there I go again. Well, since you are only convinceable by tone, it won't make any difference. You missed the point of the economic argument: the arguments made were not "communist or socialistic," and quite frankly I see myself as a centrist.The free market system works well most of the time, but is not without its flaws that are correctable. The unfettered free market leads to the many financial disasters that our country has seen through two centuries--as exemplified by the recent housing bubble that we have just come out of--with a lot of pain except for Minuchin who took immoral advantage of many home owners. As a moralist, I am sure you would agree? Probably not because you see the market as amoral. And now we are back to the beginning--slavery and child labor are just part of the market's learning curve, and one either believes the free market is perfect or she is a Commie.
Thanks again, peewee. When the argument founders, go to tone and ad hominem--not very persuasive, but perfectly understandable.

But all that aside, I truly hope you are having an enjoyable weekend.

Steve700

I find your statements to be a little disjointed, confused, confusing and difficult to understand as to just what you trying to say, but it sounds like a lot of Marxist gobbledygook/hogwash. You talk about the worker as being under some kind of tyrannical control under our capitalist system. Yes, there was some problems in the earlier days of the Industrial Revolution, but those of been pretty much taken care of. How is it, that you do not understand that under a Marxist system there is such a waste in having things run by bureaucrats rather than by people loving doing what they do? And that being educated for the job the Marxist bureaucrat is going to assign you to do, hardly compares to the freedom of American capitalism where you can make of your life what you will through your own initiative, hard work and talent. Yeah, there's winners and losers in capitalism, but that's why teaching morals, ethics, self-reliance, personal responsibility and accountability, discipline and the need for having integrity and character are important to give our youth the recipe for success. (exactly what the Marxist make a great effort to break down in a society, in order to foment communist revolution as you see today in our society) How do you Marxists fail to realize that no other system devised by man has lifted so many people out of poverty and squalor than as the laissez-faire (leave it alone) economic system of capitalism. Marxism//socialism/communism just leads to the equality in misery just leads to limited variety, shortages, and an equal sharing of poverty and misery.

truthiness

........
You said I am a communist (Marxist); I didn't say it because I am not a communist or a socialist. I applaud the free market system but am not hung up on the idea of its perfection as you seem to be. However, the unfettered free market has produced many of the financial crises that the US has seen in two centuries. There's the difference: free vs uncontrolled.
Yes indeed, I would label slavery and child labor as economic (and moral) tyrannies no matter what economic system they are employed in. One would think that they would not have been incubated and then exploited in a Christian-capitalist society so allegedly attuned to, even based on the "morals, ethics, self-reliance, personal accountability" that you say free markets produce. Your words seem to promote the free market system as a religion or moralistic force. When does an economic principle like "do as well as you can in the marketplace" possess any moralistic value? It doesn't, until you combine it with a moralistic virtue: slavery and child labor are not virtues in my book, and I suspect not in yours either.

Incidentally, von Mises and Hayak were the most free-marketeers you will ever find.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

We all have a bias about everything. Of course, nothing man designs is without flaws, man is imperfect and so are his designs. The biggest problems with the housing bubble were people who meddled with Freddie and Fanny Mae so they could fleece home buyers.
Dodd and Frank have a lot to answer for, but they seem to have escaped justice. The Federal Reserve isn't Federal and isn't American, it's international bankers who charge interest on pretty paper and should be abolished, they fleece all of us. If you want to solve the market problems make the guilty party pay the court cost and pay restitution, twice the amount they steal. Then you have to have honest judges who can't be bought or blackmailed. People are always the solution and always the problem. Other than that we probably agree. As I explained it wasn't what you said but how you said it. I "almost always" defend those who I perceive to be being attacked. Phrase a point as a question once in awhile, it helps take the sting out of words and lowers defenses to different ideas. Hope you have a better weekend than me.

buffalo Loc: Texas

Nope, bitch clinton was the worst candidate since obammy. I voted for trumpy but am not a big fan of his either. And you don't think he is a condescending asshole? Moonbats can be condescending, too, but trumpy seems to equate wealth with good character.

ldsuttonjr Loc: ShangriLa

truthiness: Or better yet stupidness! You are totally wet on the free market concept! No matter what kind of ideology one lives under; There will always be poor people, and masses surpressed. We are delusional to think in this Country the poor are hungry. They aren't. It's another big lie liberal/socialist use to win public opinion about a matter the public is too lazy to find the real truth. I don't understand why you are so opposed to people being made to work for their keep. In Japan there is no welfare. Japan is what the US used to be. Now, because of our welfare programs, the homeless are everywhere in urbane areas but, not in rural areas. Why is that? Could it be that country folk have a much higher self-image that people in the Cities? Entitlements compose 1 trillion of the 3 tril annual budget. What happens when that figures grows to 1.3 tril or 1.6 trillion. Under Obama welfare has grown 32%. Welfare unsustainable @ it's current growth rate. America will be domed, along with all forms of entitlements, including SS, Medicare, Obama Care, disability. A million illegals pouring in every year exploding the welfare and educational costs. We assume that the US will be the world economic power. There is much evidence that indicates that will not come to pass. Progressives/ Socialists in spite of our definitions are one and the same. What do we call one who stands for more welfare and free medial care at the expense of all others of a society? What do you call one who advocates a living wage for all without regard to the qualification or performance of the worker? What do you call one who advocates no corporate profits and workers to share in any and all profits without regards to return on investments? What do you call one who does not believe in free markets or selling one's labor to the highest bidder? What do you call one who wants to do away with the old and bring the new without regard to the benefits the old has birthed?

China, Russia, Cuba, and et.el. have thrown off the thorns of capitalism and the workers shared all. The proletariat was supposed to be equal kings and queens. Administrators, doctors, lawyers, all were made equal,. The economies tanked and hundreds of thousands starved. Those who went back to capitalism are now growing, or thriving. Those progressives, socialists, communists have come full circle. The US progressing onward to full communism but it too will fail when it reaches the apex. Perhaps; who will live long enough to realize the folly of our imaginations; I am sure I will not. Go back to sleep!

buffalo Loc: Texas

The REAL military budget of the US for continual, illegal, unConstitutional warmongering is already bigger than entitlements and has grown even faster than entitlements. That is going to break the US even faster while enriching a few military industrial corporations.



BULLSHIT! Free enterprise capitalism does not exist in the US. What we have had for decades is corporate/government collusion which is more akin to fascism.

Peewee Loc: San Antonio, TX

No, I don't think he is a condescending Alpha Hotel. Now CA. Jerry Brown is even nicknamed Moonbat but you were referring to Trump. It's all a matter of perspective, I don't see that at all, he is taking down many very wealthy people. A few Saudi princes lost a lot of their wealth after Trump's visit. I know the people in DOJ and the FBI don't have Trump's money but they were powerful and were corrupt. We both know he will eventually get to Hillary and Obama and they are pretty wealthy too and corrupt. A lot of congress and both sides of the aisle are retiring. Was it because they had used that secret sexual harassment fund or because they are corrupt? Yeah, Trump talks Trash at times. Is he an arrogant loud mouth or playing the MSM and is it strategic? Just my opinion, I think it's strategic. It drives the smug beltway people nuts, it plays the MSM so the public can see how fake they are, and most of all it's tearing down the PC culture. Just my opinion, but yeah, I think he is a stable, strategic, genius. No one has laid a glove on him and he continues to win. What more could I ask for? Trump is the first president since Reagan that I admire. Trump is just more fearless than Reagan. Trump has cleaned out the top of the CIA, and NSA. The CIA can't play their little war games around the world any longer and hide their budget and black ops programs, they have been reorganized and now fall under the NSA (military), so now as CINC, he can fire anyone who steps outside of the Constitution. He is surrounded and protected by marines. Military signal intelligence lets him know what minefields he is heading into. He already has the dirt on every DC player and world leader. The plan to drain the swamp was conceived before he got elected. Most of what we see is theater, waiting for the legal cases to move to the grand juries running as we speak. That's what I see and think is going on. Trump can shut down Muller whenever he wants by ordering Sessions and Rosenstein to turn over documents to Congress. That's when the manure hits the fan, meanwhile, the grand juries are trying and convicting people behind the scenes. When the timing is right, it'll all come out. IMHO. Takes pictures of the DEMs they are about to become extinct as a party. No blue wave is coming, they're broke, and big donors are drying up.

debeda

I think the problem with a lot of this is thinking in absolutes. Not all business owners are greedy any more than all unemployed people are lazy. Very little in the world is all one thing or another.