eagleye13 Loc: Fl

""There is no evidence that any of those people ever actually existed out side of a fable Every culture has fables..." - Nickolai

So you are compelled to show your ignorance, nick?


My whole point is these people all existed. We can debate on the facts argued.
BUT they did exist.
The hook has been set, and now I reel you in.

Nickolai

The stories are all fictional Some names are of people who actually lived-- but they are ancillary to the tales that carry a moral message and real life does not work that way. The oblisk in St Peters Square was imported from Egypt and is engrsved with referrences to Baal the sun god The main charactor in the gospels is the personification lof the sun a nd his oneyear ministry follows the cycle of the sun. The 12 desiples are earthly personification of the 12 constelations of the zodiac. Esch month at sunset a different constellation appears above the horizen above the light from the setting sun and it is said the sun is in Aquarius the water bearer for instance. John the Baptist that baptises Jesus in the story is the earthly pesonicfication of Aquarius then both are thrown is prison as aquariius dissapears below the horizen at sun set a few months later the head of Aqurius appeards above the horizen in the east just before sun rise and that is when John the Baptist re appears in the story and id decapited. The story as told in the gospels makes no sense but as a peresonification of the sun and the heavenly bodies in their yearly cylle it makes perfect sense

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Pliny the Younger was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He wrote to the Roman emperor Trajan:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food–but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome.

Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.” F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul’s description of James in Galatians 1:19 as “the Lord’s brother.” And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that “few scholars have questioned” that Josephus actually penned this passage.

About John the baptist, he wrote:

"John, that was called the Baptist…was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism…Herod, who feared the great influence John had over the people…sent [John] a prisoner, out of Herod’s suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death."

In his “Testimonium Flavianum,” Josephus wrote:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.”

In November, 1990, construction crews working on the Peace Park in the City of David (Jerusalem), uncovered a burial cave in which six ossuaries (bone boxes) were found. One ossuary contained the bones of the family of Caiaphas, the Pharisee priest who condemned Jesus. This ossuary was richly decorated with rosettes surrounded by leafy filigree and inscribed with the name Caiaphus. In addition, two silver scrolls (2" x 4") were found. Both were inscribed with the Aaronic Blessing (Numbers 6: 22-27). These scrolls were determined to be amulets that Hebrew priests wore during their services and celebrations.

Ye va re khe kha Adonai
ve yish me re kha
ye'ir Adonai pa nav e ley kha
ve chun ne ka
yi sa Adonai pa nav e ley kha
ve ya sem le kha
Shalom.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Nickie; You can knock religion, as there is a lot to knock. But your knowledge of the constellations, should at least give you a clue as to the intelligence behind creation. The stars are a witness to that.

Nickolai

Like those of the Jewish writer Josephus, the works of the ancient historians Pliny, Suetonius and Tacitus do not provide proof that Jesus Christ ever existed as a "historical" character. In addition to the palpably bogus passage in the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus called the "Testimonium Flavianum" is another of the pitiful "references" dutifully trotted out by apologists to prove the existence of Jesus Christ: To wit, a short passage in the works of the Roman historian Pliny the Younger. While proconsul of Bithynia, a province in the northwest of Asia Minor, Pliny purportedly wrote a letter in 110 CE to the Emperor Trajan requesting his assistance in determining the proper punishment for "Christiani" who were causing trouble and would not renounce "Christo" as their god or bow down to the image of the Emperor. These recalcitrant Christiani, according to the Pliny letter, met "together before daylight" and sang "hymns with responses to Christ as a god," binding themselves "by a solemn institution, not to any wrong act." Regarding this letter, Rev. Robert Taylor remarks: If this letter be genuine, these nocturnal meetings were what no prudent government could allow; they fully justify the charges of Caecilius in Minutius Felix, of Celsus in Origen, and of Lucian, that the primitive Christians were a skulking, light-shunning, secret, mystical, freemasonry sort of confederation, against the general welfare and peace of society.

Loki Loc: Georgia

As usual, you have provided no cites for your claims. Until you do, they remain your unsupported opinion.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Nik, you can find beaucoup attempts to undermine any religion, particularly Christianity, but all of that combined wouldn't equal a single page in the overwhelming documentation of Christianity's authenticity. Try to justify your fallacious approach in any way you can and it fails every time.

It is impossible to deny the existence of one man whose message to the world changed the course of history forever. 2000 years after Jesus spent just three years of his short life on earth, there are more Christians on earth than followers of any other religion. The odds that a fictitious historical figure could have done this are astronomical. Moreover, the Bible remains the greatest best selling and most widely distributed book in history.

What you believe about any of this is irrelevant. Whatever you write about your beliefs or non beliefs, and whatever you can dig up on the subject, seems merely an attempt to justify or rationalize your own beliefs, you aren't going to force any Christian into questioning his or her faith.

Nickolai

Actually the real shocker is when you dig into history, as I've done , and discover that outside the Bible there isn't a single credible reference to Jesus anywhere in recorded history for that time. Many people alive at that time wrote extensively about everything that happened, and yet there is not a single reference to Jesus anywhere in all this wealth of first hand accounts. The second shocker about Jesus is learning that there existed long prior to the alleged time of Jesus many other religions with identical stories of a crucified savior. Early Christian apologists admitted this and explained it away as the work of the Devil. Their general argument was, "What better way to for the Devil to combat our True Religion than for the Devil to have previously created a whole bunch of false religions identical to our True Religion." The second shocker about Jesus is learning that there existed long prior to the alleged time of Jesus many other religions with identical stories of a crucified savior. Early Christian apologists admitted this and explained it away as the work of the Devil. Their general argument was, "What better way to for the Devil to combat our True Religion than for the Devil to have previously created a whole bunch of false religions identical to our True Religion."

The third shocker, something which very few people have ever realized, and which you now are privy to this explanation, is the discovery that the whole story of Jesus, as well as the stories of all the other crucified saviors prior to Jesus, is an allegory for the Sun's annual journey through the Zodiac and the passage of the seasons of the year. This explains why all these stories are essentially the same. (Notice how the cross is the symbol that divides the four seasons of the year.)
Here is a brief explanation: Jesus goes on a journey during his ministry.
Jesus' ministry is said to have lasted a year.
It takes a year for the Sun to pass through the 12 signs of the Zodiac.
Jesus starts by visiting John the Baptist. The theme is water.
The Sun starts it's annual journey in January in Aquarius, the bringer of water, because it's the rainy season. The Bible story then says, "After John was put in prison,..." (Mark 1:14) Suddenly John the Baptist is "put in prison." There is no further explanation in the Bible, which seems quite strange if John were a real person. We want to know why he was "put in prison." What crime was he accused of? Who threw him in prison? Was there a trial? Did Jesus attend the trial and speak on his behalf? No. Nothing more is said. Jesus just continues on his journey.
This is all very strange and hard to understand as a story of real life events, but it all makes perfect sense when understood as an astronomical allegory. The Sun, personified as Jesus, is in Aquarius, personified as John the Baptist. As the month progresses, and the earth continues it annual revolution around the Sun, the Sun appears to move out of Aquarius and into Pisces, the two fishes, and Aquarius at sunset ends up below the horizon. John the Baptist being put in prison is merely an allegory for the constellation Aquarius at sunset moving lower and lower until it is below the horizon at the end of the month and can no longer be seen. It requires no further explanation because it is a natural phenomenon. It is simply what happens. The Sun then moves to Pisces — the two fish. (February)
Jesus then visits Simon and Andrew, who are fishermen.
The Sun then moves to Aries, the Ram, or lamb. (March, the time of year lambs are born.)
Jesus is known as the Lamb of God.


We celebrate Easter. East-er, when the Sun rises directly in the East. Easter is defined as the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox, when the Sun rises directly in the East. We celebrate the crossing of the Sun over the equinox, when the days and nights are of equal length. A Crossification, or crucifixion. Jews celebrate "Passover" at this time, when the Sun "passes over" the equinox. From now on the days get longer, the Sun goes higher in the sky, and the crops begin to grow. About half way through the story of Jesus an interesting thing happens. John the Baptist reappears and is beheaded. "he has risen from the dead!" says Matthew 14:2 Recall at the beginning of the allegory how Aquarius moved below the Western horizon at sunset as the year went from January to February and the Sun traveled from Aquarius to Pisces. Each zodiac constellation in turn goes below the horizon at sunset as each month passes. After six months the constellation of Aquarius begins to rise on the Eastern horizon at sunset. And it appears that the head of Aquarius is cut off by the horizon. This is John the Baptist rising from the dead, the dead being those who are below the earth. This is John the Baptist being beheaded.
Summer passes, the story of Jesus' journeys continues. We eventually come to the end of Summer and enter the season of Autumn, when the leaves fall from the trees and the trees appear to wither.
It is at this point in the story that Jesus is said to curse the fig tree and make it wither. A story which makes no sense if Jesus were a real person, but it makes perfect sense when understood as an allegory. It is simply Autumn, and Jesus, the Sun, who makes the seasons pass, causes the leaves to fall from the trees.
In the story Jesus makes a triumphant entry into Jerusalem. Everyone knows him and is happy to see him.
The Sun moves into Virgo, the virgin, in August. It is harvest time. The best time of year. Harvest time is "The Kingdom of Heaven" time which Jesus refers to in earnest as coming soon throughout the story up to here. Virgo is always personified as holding a sheaf of wheat or an ear of corn. Virgo represents the harvest. When the Sun is in Virgo it is harvest time.

The Zodiac is divided into twelve "houses." Each "house" contains one of the twelve Zodiac constellations. The "house" containing Virgo is known as the house of bread, because it's the house the sun is in during harvest time. Bethlehem is a word which can be found numerous times in the Old Testament. It is a Hebrew word. Actually it is two Hebrew words. Beth-lehem. Pronounced in Hebrew, "bayth leh'-khem". "bayth" is literally "house", and "leh'-khem" is literally "bread". Thus "Bethlehem" is literally "house of bread." It is a reference to the Zodiac "house of bread", which is where you will find Virgo, the celestial virgin. At the alleged time of Jesus there was no town on earth known as Bethlehem. Bethlehem was then known not as a town on earth, but a reference to a time of year — harvest time.

Virgo is the virgin that gives birth to the Sun each year when it passes out of her. She is the one who gives birth and yet remains always and forever a virgin. (The way Virgo is traditionally drawn on the planisphere the Sun passes out of Virgo between her legs). Farmers who till the fields are said to be wedded to this celestial virgin for which they wait for each year. Thus they are known as "husbandmen," and their tools such as tractors are know as impliments of husbandry. The DMV vehicle code book has a special section titled, "Impliments of Husbandry" which cover these vehicles. Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers." (Matthew 21:12)
The Sun moves from Virgo into Libra, the Scales. (September). These are the "Scales of Justice." The harvest has been gathered, it is now time to sell the harvest. Scales are used in buying and selling the harvest. At the end of harvest time, when there is nothing left to sell, the money changers pack up and leave.
In the Jesus story we then have the Last Supper, when we eat the harvest. It is the end of harvest season -- it is the Last Supper. We eat the flesh of the fruit, figuratively the flesh of Jesus, the Sun, which make the fruit grow, and drink the blood of the grapes, figuratively the blood of Jesus, the Sun, which made the grapes grow. Without this food we would perish.
Jesus is then betrayed by Judas.

Judas represents Scorpio, the Scorpion of October, which figuratively stings the Sun to make it slowly die. The days begin to get shorter, as the Sun rises lower and lower each day.
Judas betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, representing the 30 days of the month. The month being one cycle of the phases of the moon. The moon, a piece of silver in the sky.
Jesus is handed over to Herod — a personification of Night. (See Matthew Chapter 2—The Birth of Jesus [this site]) Herod, or the darkness of Night, is taking over Jesus, the Sun, as the days get shorter and shorter in Autumn and darkness begins to reign.

Jesus is handed over to Pontius Pilate. "Pontius" is literally "of the sea", a reference to the sea of stars above. "Pilate" is literally "armed with a spear". Pontius Pilate is a personification of Sagittarius, the last constellation the Sun passes through during the last month of the year, Nov. 22 - Dec. 21, and the last person Jesus sees in the story. Sagittarius is a man on a horse with a bow and arrow. He is the man armed with a spear. The days get shorter and shorter as the year comes to a close. Things look dark and gloomy. What will happen to our savior, the Sun, who makes the harvest grow? Will he disappear forever?
Jesus is crucified and placed in a cave. It is the end of the story. A sad ending. But have faith. Jesus, the Sun, will arise again — a new year will begin. Three days after Jesus is placed in the cave he will arise again. This is the prophecy.

On Christmas day, December 25, we celebrate the birth of Jesus. December 22 was the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year, when the Sun was at its lowest. Three days later, on December 25, the sun rises 1/10 of it's width farther north — just barely detectable by carefully observing the shadows cast at sunrise. The savior, the Sun, has been reborn, to begin the cycle of the year and the cycle of life again.

Hence the story is circular, just as the years are circular. A new year begins after the old year ends. In the Gospel story of Jesus, after his resurrection the story ends. People have always asked what did he do after that? Why does the story end here? Why isn't the rest of his life chronicled? — The reason is, if you want to read the continuation of the story, turn back to page one. The story is circular. Three days after Jesus dies and is placed in the cave he is born again, and the story begins anew.

Zodiac Interpretations
Constellation

Interpretations
Virgo,Virgin Mary

Libra, Scales, Sin must be paid for

Scorpius, Scorpion, Sin brings death

Sagittarius, archer, Demonism

Capricorn, Goat-fish, Earth corruption

Aquarius,Water pourer, living water, Noah's flood, John the Baptist

Pisces, Fish, God's remnant

Aries, Ram, Sacrifice

Taurus, Bull, Resurrection

Gemini, Twins, Christ's dual nature

Cancer, Crab,Gathering of redeemed

Leo, Lion, The King

Nickolai

Of course not I'm not trying to force any body to Question their faith That's imposible. Faith is the strongest emotion to a believer, it sustains them and they cannot allow a doubt to creep into their minds for it would risk their chance to get into heaven, and it is the devil at work if a shadow of doubt should arize. So It is imposible to plant even a seed of doubt. I'm simply expressing What I have learned over the years that seemes to me to be the truth. I had two experiences as a youngster in a Pentacostal church and a church of the Nazerene that felt like child abuse . Promising eternity in a place called heaven where the streets are paved in gold and the sun shines forever, and a hellish punishment burning, and choking for eternity in a place called hell, If I didn't open up my heart the Jesus and surrenderto the lord. At age 13-- I swore to never step foot in a church again. By the age of 17-- I began reading books on the history of the universe, and our solar system, Astronomy, The Biological and Geological History of the World, Anthrology, ecology, evolution, mythologies, astrology, The evolution of religion, ancient civilizations. In other words I took a big bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge,

An Interesting question I've never adequately found the answer to is why the vast majority of human beings have such an unquenchable need for faith

emarine

An Interesting question I've never adequately found the answer to is why the vast majority of human beings have such an unquenchable need for faith
Nickolai


Fear of the unknown...

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Metaphysics and astrology based upon the Gregorian calendar fail to explain anything. The Biblical calendar bears no resemblance to the Gregorian.

You really should research the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin singularity theorem. Or study the work of Edwin Hubble or the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, or the 12 logical fallacies of astrology, or how scientists have established the precision with which the universe is tuned to allow life to exist.

In his novel, In the Moon of Red Ponies, James Lee Burke put it this way, "like most people who believe humankind is basically good and capable of conducting its affairs in a reasonable way, I daily avoided the inescapable conclusion that collective stupidity has often been the norm in the long and sorry history of human progress, and that perhaps the soundest argument for the existence of God is the fact that the human race has survived in spite of itself."

Loki Loc: Georgia

Encyclopedia Brittanica seems to think that Pontius Pilate was a real person.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pontius-Pilate

There are well-documented corollaries between Christianity and some of the earlier Eastern religions. Christmas and Easter come to mind.
Your assertions that equally documented historical persons never existed is mistaken.
Christianity as it is practiced today probably bears little resemblance to that of the First Century. This does not mean that Jesus, or Pilate, or some of the other biblical characters did not exist.

Loki Loc: Georgia

Most organized religions, whether Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or what ever end up being political action committees. Organized religion is an attempt to reduce the incomprehensible to understandable terms. It does not follow that there is no God. I would argue that the universe is elegant proof of some sort of Creator, although not one that fits the mold of Earthly religions.
Have you ever considered that what people refer to as God may be a part of nature, rather than something beyond it?
Organized religion reminds me of an analogy I offered once; picture a bunch of ants in the Amazonian rain forest. Never having seen man, they decide that there is some sort of intelligence beyond their comprehension that is responsible for some of the phenomena they cannot explain. You have all your little ants, Army Ants, Baptist Ants, Muslim Ants, Catholic Ants, Hindu Ants and for all I know Scientology Ants all claiming to have the answer to the mystery of man, all the while not having the slightest effing idea what they are talking about.
God must march to the beat of a different drummer for sure. After creating the universe in all it's unimaginable splendor, HE/SHE/IT/THEM allow televangelists to exist.

Loki Loc: Georgia

Yet less than two centuries later, they were the predominant religion of the Eastern Roman Empire. Not bad for a bunch of skulkers.
You'll hae to do better, Nicolai. You have not even begun to convince me and I'm not even a Christian.

Nickolai

I've never studyied Metaphysics and I don't see what the second law of thermodynamics has to do with ancient astrology and the constellations of the zodiac. We don't know who is responsdble for the existance of the Universe and we may never know but it is silly to think a personal savior is watching every thing we do. listens to our prayers, plans our destiny from a universe vast beyond human comprehension, Created the physical laws of the universe them violated those laws with fantastical miracles of resurrecting people from the dead. The idea of Jesus walking on water was the personification of the suns rays reflecting of the water. Jesus says "I am the light of the world " Means there is no other light and the sun is the only light that brings warmth and grows the crops and brings forth life.

An astronomer, activist, and novelist, Carl Sagan didn't hesitate to share his views on the world, notably giving several quotes on the topic of religion. The famous scientist was born Nov. 9, 1934, into a family of Reform Jews. His father, Samuel Sagan, reportedly wasn't very religious, but his mother, Rachel Gruber, actively practiced her faith. Faith is clearly not enough for many people. They crave hard evidence, scientific proof. They long for the scientific seal of approval, but are unwilling to put up with the rigorous standards of evidence that impart credibility to that seal.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. [Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985]

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.