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Nov 28, 2017 08:19:20   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Singularity wrote:
Sorry, you've lost me? I'm not sure what you are asking. Guess the coffee hasn't completely cut through the morning fog!


My coffee will cut steel. Fog is no problem.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:20:09   #
Singularity
 
Loki wrote:
Show me a photon. Pick up a blade of grass and show me an individual carbon atom. Prove to me where the primal mass that provided the fuel for the Big Bang came from.
God exists. Religions of all sorts are imperfect attempts to reduce the incomprehensible to graspable. At least, that's how they start. All that I am familiar with end up pushing an agenda of some sort.
This neither proves nor disproves the existence of God.
For thousands of years, people believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth.
For thousands of years, people believed that the world was composed of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water.
For thousands of years people scoffed at the idea of atoms and molecules which couldn't be proven.
For thousands of years, people scoffed at the idea that disease is caused by micro organisms, rather than "bad humors" in the air.
There are those of us who believe that rather than deny the existence of God, it is more realistic to take the view that God exists, and is imperfectly understood. The inability to prove something's existence is certainly no impediment to that existence.
There is no guarantee that what most people think of as God is not simply a natural phenomenon we don't yet understand.
The same can be said for life after physical death; multiple incarnations, (for lack of a better word this early in the morning.) or another existence in some realm we cannot comprehend is a possibility. It may be part of the natural order that we just don't know about yet.
Five hundred years ago people did not think the amount of knowledge we possess today even existed in the universe, and yet that same impossible amount of knowledge is growing exponentially every year.
Don't limit yourself to the provable. Had humans done that, I would not be typing this and you would not be reading it because both depend on what, once upon a time were unprovable phenomenon of the natural world.
Show me a photon. Pick up a blade of grass and sho... (show quote)

Thank you, Loki, for a thoughtful and well-reasoned response, offered in a calm and respectful tone.

You are offering a version of a proposition which commits the logical fallacy,
argumentum ad ignorantiam that claims the truth of a premise is based on the fact that it has not (yet) been proven false, or that a premise is false because it has not (yet) been proven true. This is often phrased as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

My response would be that of Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
https://youtu.be/8Nikg4hMRjs

But I'm sure you know that already. I'm honored that you stopped by! Its been a pleasure hearing from you.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:28:28   #
Singularity
 
out of the woods wrote:
Yup, thats pretty much how I pictured you. Not sure you should expose your grandaughter to that face.

Insulting ad hominem, logically fallacious and non-responsive to issue at hand.

That your best witness for the faith and hope that lies within you? 😵

Good luck with that.

Reply
 
 
Nov 28, 2017 08:31:56   #
Singularity
 
Liberty Tree wrote:
One thing needs to be understood about those who claim to be die hard atheists. The fact is not that they do not believe in God, but that they do not want there to be a God. Therefore, no evidence will ever be accept by them to make them change their minds. Their pride will not allow them to believe they are not the supreme intellect of the universe. They are clearly spelled out in Romans 1.

You would be incorrect. I have changed my mind about a lot of important issues that I believed in passionately because evidence has been presented to show that I have been in error. It goes all the way down to the basics of what religion and science actually are. Religions propose answers that may not be questioned. Science has questions that may not be answered, yet

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Nov 28, 2017 08:36:40   #
Ox
 
Ghost;
Why is the woman working and you are not?
Ox

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Nov 28, 2017 08:36:41   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Singularity wrote:
Thank you, Loki, for a thoughtful and well-reasoned response, offered in a calm and respectful tone.

You are offering a version of a proposition which commits the logical fallacy,
argumentum ad ignorantiam that claims the truth of a premise is based on the fact that it has not (yet) been proven false, or that a premise is false because it has not (yet) been proven true. This is often phrased as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

My response would be that of Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
https://youtu.be/8Nikg4hMRjs

But I'm sure you know that already. I'm honored that you stopped by! Its been a pleasure hearing from you.
Thank you, Loki, for a thoughtful and well-reasone... (show quote)

The existence of quarks was postulated long before they were proven. I would say that more scientific advances have come by basing your work on the assumption that a theory is true than by trying to prove it isn't.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:37:10   #
Singularity
 
Loki wrote:
My coffee will cut steel. Fog is no problem.



Reply
 
 
Nov 28, 2017 08:41:06   #
Loki Loc: Georgia
 
Singularity wrote:
You would be incorrect. I have changed my mind about a lot of important issues that I believed in passionately because evidence has been presented to show that I have been in error. It goes all the way down to the basics of what religion and science actually are. Religions propose answers that may not be questioned. Science has questions that may not be answered, yet


Once more, the existence of religion in whatever form is not a prerequisite for the existence of God; (obviously, since the one predates the other.)
If I relied on religion as a basis for my belief in God I would be an Atheist also.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:52:15   #
Singularity
 
Loki wrote:
The existence of quarks was postulated long before they were proven. I would say that more scientific advances have come by basing your work on the assumption that a theory is true than by trying to prove it isn't.

Imagination and theorizing both start with proposing a conditional acceptance of a possibility.

If all the answers and all the evidence you ever come up with in all the history of all the people in the all the world who have ever asked the question fail to provide an honest diligent truth seeker with even a shred of empirical proof, one might suspect a trend.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:55:06   #
Liberty Tree
 
Singularity wrote:
You would be incorrect. I have changed my mind about a lot of important issues that I believed in passionately because evidence has been presented to show that I have been in error. It goes all the way down to the basics of what religion and science actually are. Religions propose answers that may not be questioned. Science has questions that may not be answered, yet


My statement is still true. If one has predetermined that they do not want something to be true nothing will change them. That is far different from having an objective, inquiring mind willing to be changed.

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Nov 28, 2017 08:58:49   #
Singularity
 
Loki wrote:
Once more, the existence of religion in whatever form is not a prerequisite for the existence of God; (obviously, since the one predates the other.)
If I relied on religion as a basis for my belief in God I would be an Atheist also.

Fair enough.

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Nov 28, 2017 09:08:01   #
Singularity
 
Liberty Tree wrote:
My statement is still true. If one has predetermined that they do not want something to be true nothing will change them. That is far different from having an objective, inquiring mind willing to be changed.

I've heard Christians say on more than one occasion that if the Bible were to state that two plus two is five, they would accept that as the truth and try to figure out a way to live with it. That too is far different from having an objective inquiring mind willing to be changed.

Are you claiming to have the power to unerringly detect the presence of a closed mind versus an objective inquiring mind willing to be changed?

Dogmatism it's not exactly the same as pragmatism.

And the one who has predetermined what one has decided one will believe, would be the irrational, dogmatic theist. That is called faith.

The hallmark of science is the predetermined method of scientific inquiry which involves a healthy skepticism of new unproven ideas. That is called research.

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Nov 28, 2017 11:30:50   #
out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State
 
Singularity wrote:
Insulting ad hominem, logically fallacious and non-responsive to issue at hand.

That your best witness for the faith and hope that lies within you? 😵

Good luck with that.


Sinner that I am , truly couldn't help myself. You set yourself up there, too easy.

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Nov 28, 2017 11:45:42   #
Wolf counselor Loc: Heart of Texas
 
Singularity wrote:
Fair enough.


He certainly nailed it in simple terms.

He echos my exact position in the matter

Man is made in the image of God.

I see and speak to God daily.

So I need no middle man.

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Nov 28, 2017 11:47:59   #
Singularity
 
out of the woods wrote:
Sinner that I am , truly couldn't help myself. You set yourself up there, too easy.

It was funny, at least!

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