slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

There is very little in your excerpts & quotes of which I wasn't aware, PennyLynn. This is not your first railing against Senator McCain. You are mistaken in that I do not consider Mr. McCain so much a hero. I simply believe that he, in spite of the vitriol you spout against him, suffered enough as a POW. Like all others who failed in varying degrees to hold strictly to the guidelines of military conduct (such as Colonel Dramesi purportedly did) he was pardoned by President Nixon. Rightfully so, IMO, as the nation needed to heal, and did not need to further persecute those who had already suffered enough. Instead, years later, his reputation (already questionable) has been further sullied by constant attacks, often via the use of misinformation/disinformation. My previous posts on this thread explain cover much of that.

As you probably know or remember, I voted for Jim Webb as a write-in candidate. This was because I cared not a bit for either Mr.Trump or Mrs. Clinton, yet hated neither. I will admit also to having little belief in either's capacity for leading the country, thus my vote for Mr. Webb. Getting back to John McCain...in my research I picked up the following comments concerning John McCain from a blogger. His thoughts fairly well echo my own sentiments regarding McCain's time as a POW in 'Nam, and the subsequent years since:

"As much as I haven’t ever cared for the disaster McCain has been as a Congressman/Senator for Arizona, and the shady dealings that have accompanied that, from his marriage into the Hensley family, to the Keating 5 scandal and beyond; I don’t hold his military service as a POW against him. Every POW endured different things, and reacted in varying ways. McCain was pretty significantly injured and required extensive medical treatment, as many POWs did. And many POWs were exploited in different ways against their will by the North Vietnamese and Cuban interrogators. The only part of McCain’s military career I’ve been very critical of, was his absolute insistence that there were no live POWs left behind after the 1973 release of the Hanoi POWs, when we know for a fact that a good number were left behind, and were alive and still trying to signal friendly forces, as well as seen by witnesses, for more than a decade after."

Thank you for your well-meaning advice, Penny. "Physician, heal thyself....."

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

BTW, It took very little time to refresh myself of the 1967 USS Forrestal incident.

From Fact Check...

There is a nasty claim making the rounds in virulently anti-McCain circles, accusing him of responsibility for the terrible 1967 disaster aboard the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal. That claim is bunk, and we said so in our Sept. 5 Ask FactCheck item, “Did McCain crash five planes?” Now we are saying so again – even more emphatically – based on additional research.

Among the new details: We question McCain’s widely accepted story that it was his own A-4 Skyhawk that was first hit by the errant missile that touched off the disaster. We find that the exhaustive investigation that the Navy conducted afterward concluded that it was instead the A-4 immediately to McCain’s right on the carrier deck. McCain himself was not certain which plane was hit when he testified to investigators a week after the disaster. It was 32 years later that he published a memoir stating with certainty that his plane was the one struck. This is no big deal. Either way, McCain was not in any way at fault for the fire, and he barely escaped with his life. But his memory does seem to have shifted about this often-repeated detail from his past.

in 2003, James Caiella points out, correctly, that the official Navy investigation into the disaster – the Manual of the Judge Advocate General Basic Final Investigative Report Concerning the Fire on Board the USS Forrestal (CVA-59) – concluded that the missile struck plane number 405, the A-4 piloted by Lt. Cdr. Fred White, who was among those killed in the incident. McCain’s plane was number 416, and was next to White’s, one plane forward toward the ship’s bow. Caiella has kindly provided us with official Navy summaries of the investigation documenting this finding. He has also allowed us to reproduce here a portion of a drawing he created, based on the Navy report, to illustrate his article. It shows the positions of the aircraft on deck at the time the fire began.

Read the updated “Ask FactCheck” item for the details. I also recommend reading Wikipedia's official Naval account of the incident.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Okay, so you think McCain suffered enough. Therefore anything he has done or said that may be untrue or an exaggeration or actions he took or will take as an elected official is okay. He gets a free pass. Fair enough, a person's past should remain past. Keep this in mind as we move forward as Americans... because you can not be all forgiving for one individual while holding another accountable for deceptions or mistakes that they made or will make. What a nice world that would be, each morning to get up with no history of past mistakes a freedom from guilt providing at some point in life a person "suffered" enough. So a child rapist could wake up guilt free, a murderer.... a swindler, or even someone who used inappropriate comments about women or blacks could all have a daily "do over" if they "suffered" enough.

As for Nixon's pardons.... you must recall that he also pardoned Jimmy Hoffa, Dec. 23, 1971.

zombietracker Loc: Fema region 6

Our world will be a better place without him. Sorry, a POW does not make him a hero. Only a bad pilot

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

In your smarminess , you seem to dismiss the last paragraph of my post...the blogger's words that I state "fairly well echo my own sentiments regarding McCain's time as a POW in 'Nam, and the subsequent years since:"

"As much as I haven’t ever cared for the disaster McCain has been as a Congressman/Senator for Arizona, and the shady dealings that have accompanied that, from his marriage into the Hensley family, to the Keating 5 scandal and beyond; I don’t hold his military service as a POW against him. Every POW endured different things, and reacted in varying ways. McCain was pretty significantly injured and required extensive medical treatment, as many POWs did. And many POWs were exploited in different ways against their will by the North Vietnamese and Cuban interrogators. The only part of McCain’s military career I’ve been very critical of, was his absolute insistence that there were no live POWs left behind after the 1973 release of the Hanoi POWs, when we know for a fact that a good number were left behind, and were alive and still trying to signal friendly forces, as well as seen by witnesses, for more than a decade after."

Also, keep in mind that Nixon's was a blanket pardon for all Viet Nam POWs, not just for McCain.

Again, although no fan of McCain, my distaste for much of McCain's history does not allow tolerating the disinformation/misinformation that accompanies many of his distractor's condemnations. Let the truth have its day without the added, unfair embellishment by critics of the man.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

He was a hero before he was shot down, and afterwards, hate-boy.

Tell us what you did that was more heroic.

Gatsby

How much torture would it take to break you?

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

I'd bet the ungrateful entitled little weasel would wet his panties if he was snapped with a wet towel.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Actually quite a bit. I am a woman who has given birth to children without medication and without yelling and all that nonsense. And I raised my children at times alone, so I have been mentally, emotionally, and physically challenged. I have had broken bones, in fact I broke my leg and thought it was just a sprang and walked around on it for a couple days before it was looked at by a doctor. I broke my hand, wrapped some tape around it and moved on. I have had stitches without pain medication. I know how to ignore pain. I learned early on, get hurt get up rub some dirt on it... and walk on. I am not easily manipulated by fear and the thought of dying does not worry me. Second, I was in the military, enough said about that. Third, I would never betray my country or those who I worked or served with....

Now that you have unsuccessfully tried to make this thread about me, can we return to McCain?

Paybacktimeishere

John McCain, a real American Hero??

Pennylyn: There's just something about John McCain that dosn't "Add Up". Most every Veteran of The Vietnam War, that I've met or known as a friend, had a "Hard Edge" to them
in The Way they felt, about The Communist Enemy, & The Atrocities They Committed, to their own people, & against captured American Soldier's, Sailor's, Marine's, Airmen, & Seabee's!!! Real, & True Hero's, like Carlos Hathcock, U.S. Marine Corp. Sniper, & Medal of
Honor, recipient, whom died at the age of 49, of
Agent Orange related Cancer's,
are never mentioned, in anyway, by the corrupt,
Lying, Far-Left, "Lame" Stream Media". There ARE many such, real Hero's, like SGT. Hathcock,
that are ignored, by this Fake/False Media, but
for some reason, John "SONGBIRD" McCain is
their "DARLING BOY"!? He, McCain, went about
His "Run" for President, in a meek, lackadaisical,
"Surrendering", non-aggressive, "SOFT", manner; actually allowing The Community Organizing, Communist, MUSLIM, & Racist, Kenyan/Indonesian, "Radical Imposter", AKA,
Barack Hussein Obama, to become The President of These United States. To me, both
are in the same catagory of "MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE'S". Eight long, non-productive, "INSANE LEFTIST", Anti-American, Anti-Police, Anti- Military, Anti-Constitution, & Anti-Christian
year's of Unrest, Turmoil, & "Borderline Civil War"!!! I believe John McCain, is right in the middle, of this TREACHERY & TREASON, against
The United States Of America!!! I believe this
"MAN" is as phony, as a $3.00 Bill!? He's only a
"HERO", to America's Enemies, both Foreign, &
Domestic!!!

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

He almost blew up his own ship so he can probably handle a little brain tumor!

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Sorry, Paybacktimeishere, speaking as a USMC Viet Nam Veteran, Carlos Hathcock is a recognized legend to many of us. But, he died in 1999 at the age of 57, not 49, and it was of complications from multiple sclerosis with no record I could find as a result of Agent Orange...but, quite possibly so. Also, he never won the Medal of Honor, as the Silver Star was his highest personal award. A great Marine was Mr. Hatchcock, but your research seems very limited.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

If he were a hero before he was shot down.... tell me what he did that merit that title. His military records, or at least what got out before he had his records sealed was nothing to write home about. In 2008 there was an article in the NYT, seems that a journalist went to Vietnam to see what McCain's tormentors thought about his possibility of being elected President of the US.... what a shock to learn that they were estatic about the possibility saying that they hoped he would win since they had become such good friends during the war and had worked so closely together; if they lived in America, they would certainly all vote for him. When asked about McCain’s claims of “cruel and sadistic” torture, the head of the guard unit dismissed those stories as being just the sort of total nonsense that politicians, whether in America or in Vietnam, must often spout in order to win popularity. Think about this for a second... even in McCain's book he tells about his temper (he actually bragged about having tantrums holding his breath until he would pass out and holding grudges), how plausible does it seem that the men who allegedly spent years torturing him would be so eager to see him reach a position of supreme world power? And if he was so badly treated, beaten and starved, then explain why he looked so healthy when he got off the bus along with other released POW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfyGdG9llSE Watch the first few minutes... it is the video of him getting off the bus. Yes, the rest of the video is anti-McCain... so take the rest as you see fit, but him getting off the bus contradicts the stories about his mistreatment. In fact, even McCain's own words negate torture after the first couple of days.... or perhaps you may have missed his 12,000 word essay he wrote. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account?PageNr=1 Read his own words... he broke not after years of torture, but in a matter of days!

Even so, I know that men can break and will break under the right circumstances. It is what he did later on that turned me sour against him. And it was not his cheating on his wife or his involvement with Keating Five where he got away scot-free... or his anti-Trump campaign ... What did it for me was the cover up of the POW/MIAs. If you are unfamiliar with his hand in that cover up, then I guess you have not been following his career. In 1993 the front page of the New York Times broke the story that a Politburo transcript found in the Kremlin archives fully confirmed the existence of the additional POWs, and when interviewed on the PBS Newshour former National Security Advisors Henry Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski admitted that the document was very likely correct and that hundreds of America’s Vietnam POWs had indeed been left behind. McCain fought tooth and nail to cover up the facts and resisted any attempts to find those missing.... he actually ordered documents to be destroyed to keep them out of public eye... All of the scanned documents, some with original notes can be found at https://www.powhrdlicka.com/documents/ So, yes he broke in Nam..as did many men, but to not want to bring the other missing men home... or at least their remains so their families could have closure.... well, I find that inexcusable!

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Every man or woman that jumps in front of America and in faces her enemies under live fire is a hero.

Ironically, these heroes of the past did such a great job at it that you don't have to understand it, because you've never experienced anything but the cushy life they bought for you with their blood, limbs, and lives.

Carol Kelly