alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Your ignorance of the PCUSA and its stance of the ordaination of practicing homosexuals would be expected. You managed to intentionally leave out the part that it's up to each church to determine if they will accept such a person as it's minister. FYI- There are no rules "forcing" any church to accept a practicing homosexual as their minister. Since you researched the PCUSA, why didn't you include the part about our churches having the ability to either accept or reject a practicing homosexual as it's minister? The omission of facts is just the same as "lying." I must wonder if you did it on purpose. If so, you've intentionally lied. That would be the, "false witness" you're spreading about us. That would be 2 Commandments you broke; lying and bearing false witness.

I would suppose, too, your religion/theology/belief doesn't allow women to be ministers in your churches because of what Saul/Paul says in the Bible? Add all this together and you talk about the log in MY and my denomination's eyes. You ARE a Pharisee!

Just because "lay ministers" aren't mentioned in the Bible, doesn't mean they're not allowed. "Lay ministers" minister to churches that are too small to be able to afford a full-time, "called" minister. Many lay ministers minister to more than one church. Many lay ministers don't accept any monies for their work, either, as they realize the church is too poor to afford even a stipend to offer them. But, I wouldn't expect you to know all of that since it's now very evident that your "research" was driven by the intention to find any "dirt" you could about me and my religious affiliation; a very clear demonstration of your "Christian love." NOT!

Besides, how many ministers of any denomination are sin-less; being gay or doing some other sin? How many ministers have been caught having sex with their church secretaries? Their congregants, both male and female? How many ministers have been imprisoned for embezzlement of church funds? What about the issue of Catholic priests being pedophiles? Oh yes! Ministers can and do sin! Oftentimes, the churches simply get rid of their sinful ministers and do not say anything about it to the press for fear of "negative publicity." "Oh no! We can't let this out! People will think we're a bunch of sinners up up here!"

How many women are seen as "church leaders" in the NT? Wasn't Mary Magdalene one of Jesus' "momentary sponsors" and followed Him and His disciples on many of their travels? Wasn't she at the Cross when He died? Wasn't she one of the first to enter the Tomb? Wasn't she one of the ones to see Him post-resurrection and report back to the "men-folk?"

Zemi, you ARE, definitely, a "piece of work" when it come to demonstrating God's love for us. NOT!! I used to,work for an electric utility company. I can get you access to one of their "crane-trucks" to help you with those poles in your eyes. I must warn you. It will hurt pulling those poles out.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

There you go again! Your spastic flights of fancy, and false accusations, if not tiresome, would be entertaining.

Engaging in a wee bit of a rampage this morning, Lay Minister? Foaming at the mouth because I gave a quick glance at my "Handbook of Denominations in the United States" for one minute, and a precursory thirty second search and subsequent two minute reading of online "Christianity Today" for an update, which you have just acknowledged is less than flattering to the denomination of your choice.

The expenditure of three and one half minutes, for your information, is NOT research! After thirty five years of research on Biblical History, Christian History, Cults, Jewish History, Ancient Religion and World History, and Occultism, I recognize research.

Research would be at least twelve to fifteen reference books, from the approximate 6,000 in my library, piled on and around my desk, intermingled with online reports on matters of much deeper concern to me than your daily little harangues, or your dwindling apostate denomination, with which I have long been familiar.

I never in any way insinuated any minister was being forced on any congregation. The process of interviewing a prospective minister and giving a thumb up or down is well known, as is ordaining a minister.

The PC USA decision that a church within your congregation MAY ordain an "uncelibate Homosexual," an acknowledged practitioner of sexual perversion, and call that person a minister compounds the reasons your denomination has placed itself outside any current possibility of meeting Biblical standards, as they were written.

There have been many earlier reasons, and following was one of the cruelest positions on the part of a "church" which claims to honor Jesus Christ that I ever heard:

DETROIT, MI - Wed Jun 25, 2014 - 6:35 pm EST - "The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) overwhelmingly rejected a motion suggesting the church publicly condemn the killing of babies born alive after botched abortions."

It makes it very easy to understand why this denomination is in the process of losing half its congregation.

Do something about it.

If you are indeed a minister, with a calling from God, whether paid or unpaid, preach at them, not me.

Otherwise, continue to tote that log.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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"[quote=Zemirah]The Presbyterian Church, or PCUSA, is a mainline Protestant Christian denomination known for its progressive stance on doctrine."
You speak of having a "... progressive stance on doctrine" as if it's some sort of "bad thing." Why do you think being progressive is "bad?" Are you trying to interject politics into this thread, now? If that's so, I can only presume that your next comments will be along the lines of me being "un-American" and/or "anti-Christian" simply because I might follow a "progressive stance on doctrine."

BTW, you should know that the PCUSA isn't the only mainstream denomination that is losing membership. Southern Baptists, Churches of Christ, Methodists, and Episcopalians are losing members, too. Studies show many people are leaving the SBC and CoC over what is preceived as their "hard-core and over-the-top" stances on social issues. Many people feel that those strict and un-yielding positions don't match the "teachings of Christ and the 'love' He expounded."
"http://www.gracecentered.com/what_is_happening_to_churches_of_christ.htm"
"http://apnews.com/e1afa2371ff44136ae3683ff0eb8c6e7/southern-baptists-see-9th-year-membership-decline"
"http://baptistnews.com/article/freefall-continues-in-sbc-membership-baptism-stats/#.WXFltrFOmfA"


"Your stated opinion that anyone who opposes you is wrong is understandable."
Please, show me where I "stated" such an opinion regarding our "discussion." I've re-read the entire thread and didn't see a "stated opinion" from me ANYWHERE as referenced by you. I suppose since you can't turn me around to your way of thinking, that lying about what I've posted is your current M.O.?

"The Bible says that "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." There is no mention of anyone being given a "lay ministry." Please!!!"
There are a lot of religious terms used today that aren't in the Bible. Why are you having trouble with "lay minister?" Are "Reverend," "Bishop," "Cardinal," and "Pope," titles given to church leaders in the Bible? NO! Why do you get heartburn hearing those tiles given religious leaders or religious leaders using them? Jealous?

As to me "harassing" you, I feel you're harassing me and condemning me and, now, my denomination for our stances on doctrine and social issues by twisting the truth about us just to meet, what I now believe to be, your theological/political agenda. Can we expect to see more "fake news" From you about me and the PCUSA?

Cute "selfie" of you, too, BTW. How old is the picture? 2-3 years old?

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The topic of this thread is the global evidence of the ancient knowledge that existed throughout the earth of the one true God.

You claimed on day one that I'd referenced only Egypt and Polynesia, and there was therefore, no global evidence.

In actuality, it references Egypt, Polynesia, Greece, China, Rome, Middle East, Australia, Central Africa, California and Indonesia. That is global!

There are two possibilities.

1) You didn't bother to read the article in it's entirety, or

2) You are deliberately misrepresenting the information it contains.


Titles are like caps. You may attire yourself in any one of them you wish.

My only difficulty is with your audacity in claiming to represent the God of the Bible. Oh, wait, you're not!

You are proudly claiming to represent a denomination with no lamp stand. Big difference! Overwhelming difference!


Millions of murdered unborn human beings is not a joking matter. This is something that any minister of God would know.

In 2014, I and several others debated your posted topic inquiring if the Bible actually condemned abortion, which you had titled, "Is abortion really against God's law?" http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-14255-1.html

It was a variation on Lucifer's words: "Well, did God really say?"

That's all I needed to know about you then, or now.

As to Jesus condemning only the money changers in the temple, you are oh, so wrong.

Jesus despised false religious leaders. He said they were not to seek man-exalting titles such as rabbi, father, or minister to gain the recognition of men. Disciples of Christ should not exalt themselves but should seek to serve others and leave the exalting to God Himself.

Jesus, having started His public ministry to the disciples with eight words of blessing, completed it with seven woes on the Pharisees. He gives them withering scorn, unmistakable denunciation, condemning them and the nation of His generation to Hell.

Those who say that the God of the Old Testament is cruel and judgmental, while the God of the New Testament is gracious and kind have not read the Bible carefully. The 23rd of Matthew is as fierce in its condemnation as Moses' words to Israel in the desert (Deut.28:15–29:28) or Ezekiel's prophecies to the exiles; nor is the middle section of Revelation to be overlooked.

God is the same in both Testaments. He has not changed. Since Jesus speaks to His disciples and through them to the Christian world of the future, Christians must take to heart all that He said here.

The Christian Church has been a custodian of the Bible for 2,000 years, and of this teaching, denouncing Israel. There has been animosity between Jews and Christians for centuries. It is not a good record. The lessons to be derived from the text are not to remind the Jewish of their faults, but is historical, and for the reflection of Christian believers, for it was also intended for all who would believe upon Christ.

23:1–11 Jesus told His followers that the strict religionists were teaching the truth from the Law of Moses, and that the Law should be followed. The problem was not with the information, but the way the teachers behaved.

*The Scribes and Pharisees multiplied the regulations beyond the Law's demands and did not provide assistance to their disciples in carrying them out.

*They were performance-oriented and loved public recognition—places of honor, greetings and titles.

The Jewish religion then, as now, was a religion of:

1) Externalism

2) Self-Righteousness

In contrast, Jesus' disciples were not to pin titles on each other—rabbi, father, master. Those titles belong to God. God demands humility, not self-exaltation. They were to be servants of each other.

23:13 The First Woe condemned the scribes and Pharisees for keeping people out of the Kingdom of heaven. They did not hesitate to dissuade people from following Jesus.

23:15 The Second Woe was for making converts that were worse than they were.

23:16 The Third Woe was for finding ways not to honor their commitments. They made a hierarchy of objects to swear by.
So their word was worthless in itself.

23:23.The Fourth Woe was for straining at gnats—being meticulous about the details of religious observance like tithing the garden herbs--but swallowing the camel--ignoring mercy and justice. They intended to please God in small things like donations of plants, but ignored crucial matters such as justice and mercy in their dealings with people.

23:25–31 The Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Woes are kinds of hypocrisy.
* They were like dishes that were clean on the outside but dirty inside. They looked good but their minds were bent on extortion and ripping people off. (23:14) mentions devouring widows’ houses.

*They were like whitewashed tombs. They appeared righteous but were hypocritical and in fact lawless (Gr. "anomia"), spiritually dead.

*They maintained the tombs of the prophets. They deplored what former generations had done to the prophets, but they were in the business of destroying The Great Prophet of God and His disciples.

23:32–36 The last word is damnation of His generation. The punishment of this generation consummates the destruction of the servants of God from Abel to the last prophet in the OT. Crucifying the Son of God was the greatest crime of all time.

23:37–38 Jesus wept over Jerusalem, the graveyard of God’s servants, that He had longed to save and protect. He loved His people Israel, and He loved them to the end.

23:39 Nevertheless, He will come again. Then they will say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” and mean it.

In His own words:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying...:

10 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’

17 “You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’

19 “You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20“Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it.

21 “And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22“And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.

26 “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

28“ So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’

31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 “ Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?"


The words of Jesus, therefore, were not all sweetness and light. He did not say, "Let's all just love each other." He said much more.

You can fuss at me until the cows come home. It will not change anything one iota.


[quote=alabuck]-------------------
"

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

Evidently, you're projecting yourself when using all these verses against me. I wanted to end this a few exchanges ago. But, Nnooo! You wanted to continue this, on and on. Neither of us are going to change the other's POV. So, lets just drop it.

As to your OP, I still disagree with the premise of a "1-God worship" being provable before the "written word" was invented by mankind. It's odd you never, once, denied that part of my retort. Instead, you went on to attack me personally and my denomination. But, I digress. The authors you quoted were from the middle to late 1800's, to the mid-1900's and relied, solely, on information from "oral tradition." Since then, their "theories" have been discredited by the vast majority of Bible scholars and Middle Eastern archeologists. That you'd want to resurrect them, now, seems rather strange.

If you're a "literalist" of the Bible, the ONLY time everyone worshiped 1 God was in the "Garden of Eden" and shortly after. Once the Tower of Babel was built and God dispersed the people over the Earth, that was the end a 1-God religion. That's the ONLY time there could've been a 1-God religion. Even the Bible mentions that. But, again, you have to be a "literalist" to believe that story. I'm not a "literalist."

How do you know that the authors you used didn't have any sort of bias toward white racial superiority to cloud their perceptions? That train of thought was very much alive during that period of time they were in. Do you have anything to prove otherwise? Remember, ALL were white men doing the research and making their presentations public. I'm not saying it was a part of their thought processes. But, it could've been, given the times in which these works were first published.

It's been proven that oral tradition changes over time, through many re-tellings; just like a story changing as it's passed around a room between 10 different people. By the time it returns to the first person, the story has changed considerably. Now, if you want to accept a premise, based on a biased theory (Admittedly, the author of your main source, a Roman Catholic priest, was looking for evidence of monotheism. Instead of gathering the information and making conclusions from it, he was looking for information to buttress his theory. Any of his "ancient stories" could've been made-up by some "witch-doctor" just to satisfy his desires.), then, you go right ahead. But, remember, this is NOT how "UN-biased research" is done. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's how "biased research" is done. As such, I don't believe it. YOU can talk until the cows come home, I'm not taking yours or any of the other authors' words for it, either. You have ZERO proof of your comments being factual.

So, go ahead. Claim your precious "victory." I know that's what you've been driving at all along. I'm sure God is so very proud of you. You'd made a very fine Spanish Inquisitor or, even a very fine Puritan. Both were excellent at punishing anyone who dared disagree with them. Perhaps, you should want me to carry a red-hot iron rod around, in my hands, to see if it burns me, thus, proving my guilt. Or, maybe, you'd want to tie-up my hands and feet and toss me into a deep lake to see if God will loosen my bonds; thus, proving my innocence.

Like I said earlier, referencing "... those who can quote chapter and verse ... ." It, still, very much, applies to you.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

This is my topic. I began this thread! In no way am I pursuing you.

It is you who have stuck to this thread like glue, without encouragement - like a pimple on the posterior of reason and logic.

This is the ugliest encounter I've ever experienced from a self-professed "lay-minister" representing an organization claiming to serve Jesus Christ.

Giving tacit approval to policies that endorse both Homosexuality, which negates the possibility of creating new life, and of Abortion, which assures the cruel murder of any children who are conceived, is the approval of a Culture of Death.

God said in Genesis, "I put before you Life and Death. Choose life, that you and your family may live."

Go where you will. Say what you will. Exercise your freedom of speech.

Honor other unfortunate souls with your self-absorption, blind accusations, and again, end by flinging the proverbial "racism" charge in which all progressives indulge.

Better yet, go study something, preferably Holy Scripture.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Epilogue (Afterword):

When Noah and his sons and their wives exited the Ark after the waters had receded, they did so with their knowledge of the One God who had created them intact.

I wrote of the scientific evidence of Noah's global flood in an earlier post:

http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/user-post-list?page=109&usernum=722

A few centuries later, Noah's progeny, following their dispersal at the Tower of Babel, spread out over all the earth.

Although forced to worship the tyrant, Nimrod, a.k.a., Marduk,as though he were deity, in the new religion he had created at the Tower of Babel, they retained their knowledge of the One True God of their ancestor, Noah.

The reports of the missionaries, who traversed the world to preach Christ, were prefaced by the quotes from natives of the countries visited.

Their color of skin was Not only "white," although that shouldn't matter. Some were tan, some brown, some black, but their inherited understanding of the One True God, passed down for centuries from distant ancestors, were all very similar.

In the ancient Biblical book of "Job," he lived at a very early time, before the Hebrews were imprisoned in Egypt as slaves for four hundred years, exiting to finally possess the land of Canaan, which God had promised them, and thus, before Israel existed as a nation, and before the building of God's temple.

He lived in an agricultural, pastoral setting, and functioned as the High Priest to his own family, as they worshiped their One God.


Romans 12:18: "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."

We are told to subject ourselves to authority, but when a government acts unlawfully, ignoring it's own duly passed laws, and behaves in a lawless manner, ignoring God' laws, we have a priority, as Peter said:

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men."

We live in an age of increasing apostasy, and spiritual darkness is enveloping much of the world, but in the words of a mere mortal, Dylan Thomas, "Rage, rage, against the dying of the light."


Unborn children should not have their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness destroyed because their mother chose abortion as her method of birth control.

I believe that when Atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair's "Murray v. Curlett" lawsuit led to a Supreme Court ruling ending Bible-reading and prayer in American public schools in 1963;

followed in 1973, by Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun's written ruling finding a hitherto unknown "right to privacy" incorporating within it the right to murder the unborn,

if only all Christians could have united in protest, verbally, vocally, and peacefully, and in person marched in Washington D.C., by the millions.

We, as Christian believers were invisible, as though shocked into silence, and we have, for the most part, remained so ever since...

for by sheer numbers, if truly united, perhaps we could have elected representatives and senators who would have written new and better laws to protect freedom of religion and the protection of the helpless...

The defense of a specific denomination, i.e., Lutherism, Calvinism, Wesleyan, rather than Jesus Christ is not a Biblical commandment, for splitting into denominations following anyone other than Jesus is denounced in God' Word:

1st Corinthians 1:12-13: "What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? Of course not!"

Our nation now, is as God foresaw and foretold in II Timothy 3rd chapter:

"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant,

revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal,

haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure

rather than lovers of God,

holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;

Avoid such men as these." (II Timothy 3:1-5)

In the eventuality, these men actually cease control of much of the earth, before the rapture, please keep a diary to enlighten any future generations as to how and why they find themselves living in a godless, barren, loveless, liberty-free, restrictive hell on earth.

To Progressives of all parties, absolutely everything is a political strategy, devoid of all reality and possible repercussions.

Modern-day liberals, or "progressives," as they more discreetly prefer, labor under an awkward misconception; namely, that there is anything remotely progressive about the fundamental canons of their blind, secular-humanist faith. In fact, today's liberalism is largely a sanitized retread of an antiquated mythology; one that significantly predates the only truly progressive movement: biblical Christianity.

Although they've now assumed a more contemporary flair, the fundamentals of Baal worship remain alive and well today. The principal pillars of Baalism were child sacrifice, sexual immorality (both heterosexual and homosexual) and pantheism (reverence for the Creation, i.e., the Earth instead of the Creator).

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

You're right. It's is your thread. You have all the answers. God's Love and grace? You done need no stinking love and grace! After all, you are God's sole representative on Earth.

It is your way or the highway. Everyone's a sinner unless they accept your teachings, explicitly. Anyone who dares challenge you is doomed to hell.

Well, I guess I'll be holding the door for you once you arrive there. See ya later!

PS: Jesus hung out with all kinds of sinners. While I, personally, don't subscribe to the gay lifestyle, I'm not in any position judge others. And, in deference to your own opinions about yourself being superior to others, in terms of their salvation, neither are you. That's God's job.

See you in hell, then, too!