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I have changed my mind on the issue of "Universal Healthcare"
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May 22, 2017 13:17:57   #
Nickolai
 
ACP45 wrote:
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the idea of "Universal Healthcare". Being a free market kind of person, I have always felt that a "free market" solution was the best and most cost effective way to solve our health care problem.

I have come to realize a bit late in the game, that the United States no longer operates as a "free market" economy. While we say and think we do, we are really kidding ourselves. Large corporations and government have gotten together and perverted the issue of "free market". We have also gone beyond the point of no return, and the system is incapable of reforming itself, and correcting previous mistakes.

There will be those who say that we cannot afford a "Universal Healthcare" solution. They may be right, but only in the contex that the "black budget" items, military spending/weapons procurement, establishment and maintenance of military bases overseas, spying/surveillance portions of government spending make it impossible to spend money on where it is really needed, healthcare, and social infrastructure improvements and repair.

The most recent health care study published in the Lancet ranked the US 35th in the world compared to other nations. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-05-countries-healthcare.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly-nwletter

Clearly, what we have been doing is not working, and we need to re-think and take a new approach to this issue.
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the ... (show quote)






Congratulations my friend I went through a similar process many years ago and changed my way of thinking. It is enthralling to de a conservative with the flexibility to think for them selves out side the box, congratulations !

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May 22, 2017 13:19:45   #
Nickolai
 
lpnmajor wrote:
Some of us have been beating that drum for years, enduring accusations of being a Communist, Socialist, Satan worshiper and other vile monikers, but we continue the crusade anyway. That doesn't make us some kind of hero, saint, or whatever, it makes us Americans who believe in the ideals that made America great.

What does "universal" even mean in this context? Simply put, it means "universal access", where everyone is treated exactly the same way by the healthcare industry - because there is only one pay source. Now, you can be denied treatment by anyone ( or everyone ), because they don't like your source of payment. Some Doctors and facilities require you to pay your co-insurance up front, before treating you. I've even had a hospital do a credit check on me, before scheduling a procedure. This type of behavior is capitalism gone bad.

When did we decide that life giving, life sparing and life saving healthcare was a business? When did we decide that profiting off of people's misfortunes, illnesses and tragedies was perfectly ok? The Constitution says we have rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but life comes at a premium cost, we have to pay to keep our liberty - and the pursuit of happiness has a menu and a price tag. Those rights were purchased with the blood of American heroes, the unending heartache of their families, and the vigilance of their descendants - and may NOT be sold for profit!

We need a common sense approach to healthcare, absolutely sans partisan BS, where private enterprise and Gov. work together. There MUST be price controls placed on healthcare itself, because an MRI machine costs the same in NY as it does in Iowa, and prices ranging from $800 - $3500 for a scan is criminal. I don't have a problem with insurance companies bidding to administer our healthcare payments, thus avoiding the usual bureaucratic crap, and it would save billions right out of the gate, because they have the mechanisms in place already. I don't have a problem with payroll deductions for paying premiums, everyone MUST pay for their own healthcare regardless. Everyone must pay, and not just through income taxes, but with universal healthcare, those premiums would be adjusted by income, the more you make, the more you pay. There would still be co-insurance and copays, because if you use the system, you should pay more than those who do not - who will still have it if they need it.

When we get beyond the partisan rhetoric, and just use common sense, we'll all agree that the current healthcare system has gone rogue and is unsustainable. There is simply no excuse for private companies to be making 100's of billions of dollars in PROFIT every year, off of our accidents, illnesses or those of our children.
Some of us have been beating that drum for years, ... (show quote)






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May 22, 2017 16:22:02   #
Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan
 
cesspool jones wrote:
That’s the best thing you ever said.


No, I've have lots of good thoughts, if you would bother to start at the beginning of a thread instead hopping on the dog pile.

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2017 16:33:29   #
cesspool jones Loc: atlanta
 
Dummy Boy wrote:
No, I've have lots of good thoughts, if you would bother to start at the beginning of a thread instead hopping on the dog pile.


You got my attention

Reply
May 22, 2017 20:23:26   #
Bug58
 
eden wrote:
You are on the right track. If tiny nations like New Zealand can provide access to affordable health care via a Government Public Option that keeps Private Insurers honest then so can the richest nation on earth.


Tiny nations like New Zealand are NOT providing health care for millions of people who are not citizens of their country.

None of those countries have the population that America does, and none of them have the influx of people from around the globe literally 'risking their lives' to get in.

Something that could be done is the direct pay doctors, where instead of you paying an insurance company $300 a month you pay your doctor $100 a month
for your care, if you need another policy for emergency care or to cover 'tests' then see about getting a low cost policy and use it for that.

Reply
May 23, 2017 01:22:01   #
Worried for our children Loc: Massachusetts
 
ACP45 wrote:
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the idea of "Universal Healthcare". Being a free market kind of person, I have always felt that a "free market" solution was the best and most cost effective way to solve our health care problem.

I have come to realize a bit late in the game, that the United States no longer operates as a "free market" economy. While we say and think we do, we are really kidding ourselves. Large corporations and government have gotten together and perverted the issue of "free market". We have also gone beyond the point of no return, and the system is incapable of reforming itself, and correcting previous mistakes.

There will be those who say that we cannot afford a "Universal Healthcare" solution. They may be right, but only in the contex that the "black budget" items, military spending/weapons procurement, establishment and maintenance of military bases overseas, spying/surveillance portions of government spending make it impossible to spend money on where it is really needed, healthcare, and social infrastructure improvements and repair.

The most recent health care study published in the Lancet ranked the US 35th in the world compared to other nations. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-05-countries-healthcare.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly-nwletter

Clearly, what we have been doing is not working, and we need to re-think and take a new approach to this issue.
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the ... (show quote)


It's not working because it was never meant to be. The federal government was never intended to have anything to do with healthcare. And I agree, something needs to change, but it's not giving the federal government anymore authority over the people's lives, in fact, universal healthcare would be unconstitutional, violating amendments IX & X.

The preamble says "promote the general Welfare" - not "provide the general welfare".

In my humble opinion what I think you should focus your efforts towards is getting healthcare back to the states, where it belongs. By doing this the people will have choices, each state being different from each other will then come up with ideas and solutions unique to them, and each state can borrow these ideas and solutions from each other to satisfy their needs. The people would then be able to choose a state that best suits their needs. This would also, by force of nature, demand innovation. Certainly not something you would get from the federal government, they would turn healthcare into a soup sandwich, their track record proves it. Not many people point to the VA, as a whole, and say... "Hey! Look at the great job they're doing.

Reply
May 23, 2017 07:22:41   #
crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island
 
ACP45 wrote:
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the idea of "Universal Healthcare". Being a free market kind of person, I have always felt that a "free market" solution was the best and most cost effective way to solve our health care problem.

I have come to realize a bit late in the game, that the United States no longer operates as a "free market" economy. While we say and think we do, we are really kidding ourselves. Large corporations and government have gotten together and perverted the issue of "free market". We have also gone beyond the point of no return, and the system is incapable of reforming itself, and correcting previous mistakes.

There will be those who say that we cannot afford a "Universal Healthcare" solution. They may be right, but only in the contex that the "black budget" items, military spending/weapons procurement, establishment and maintenance of military bases overseas, spying/surveillance portions of government spending make it impossible to spend money on where it is really needed, healthcare, and social infrastructure improvements and repair.

The most recent health care study published in the Lancet ranked the US 35th in the world compared to other nations. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-05-countries-healthcare.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly-nwletter

Clearly, what we have been doing is not working, and we need to re-think and take a new approach to this issue.
For some time now, I have been wrestling with the ... (show quote)




As an osteopathic physician, who's been plying this trade for 45 years, I can attest that the free market doesn't prevail in the healing arts. They are always the first occupations to be licensed, of course, to protect the public from charlatans. It doesn't work because everyone has read about the horrors that happen anyway despite government oversight. It's the first step in government paternalism.

That doesn't mean that the free market can't solve the problems. It can. Any national solution will result in runaway costs. Strip licensure and let the free market go to work. And if your field is licensed, get it out from under Big Brother's Thumb.

Reply
 
 
May 23, 2017 07:42:55   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
Worried for our children wrote:
It's not working because it was never meant to be. The federal government was never intended to have anything to do with healthcare. And I agree, something needs to change, but it's not giving the federal government anymore authority over the people's lives, in fact, universal healthcare would be unconstitutional, violating amendments IX & X.

The preamble says "promote the general Welfare" - not "provide the general welfare".

In my humble opinion what I think you should focus your efforts towards is getting healthcare back to the states, where it belongs. By doing this the people will have choices, each state being different from each other will then come up with ideas and solutions unique to them, and each state can borrow these ideas and solutions from each other to satisfy their needs. The people would then be able to choose a state that best suits their needs. This would also, by force of nature, demand innovation. Certainly not something you would get from the federal government, they would turn healthcare into a soup sandwich, their track record proves it. Not many people point to the VA, as a whole, and say... "Hey! Look at the great job they're doing.
It's not working because it was never meant to be.... (show quote)


Hey Worried, what do you intend to do with the 100+MILLION elderly, disabled and poor people that depend on Medicare and Medicaid, 1 out of 3 Americans, IF government should not be involved in health CARE? You think big, private, for profit health INSURANCE corporations are going to, or the "free" market? Ha! The government, YOU say shouldn't be involved in health CARE, already funds 65% of the $3.35 TRILLION health CARE bill or the equivalent of $6,700 of the $10,335 for every man, woman and child in the US. Why is that? Because it is the elderly, disabled and poor that generate the most in health CARE costs. So, how would you propose to pay for and take care of those 100 MILLION peoples' health CARE needs if government involvement in health CARE is unConstitutional?

Reply
May 23, 2017 07:50:07   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
crazylibertarian wrote:
As an osteopathic physician, who's been plying this trade for 45 years, I can attest that the free market doesn't prevail in the healing arts. They are always the first occupations to be licensed, of course, to protect the public from charlatans. It doesn't work because everyone has read about the horrors that happen anyway despite government oversight. It's the first step in government paternalism.

That doesn't mean that the free market can't solve the problems. It can. Any national solution will result in runaway costs. Strip licensure and let the free market go to work. And if your field is licensed, get it out from under Big Brother's Thumb.
As an osteopathic physician, who's been plying thi... (show quote)


Then I ask you the same question, crazy, the same question I asked Worried. How do you propose to pay for the health CARE needs of the 100+million elderly, disabled and poor people that generate over 70% of health CARE costs? Or is that not your problem because as a specialist you only see patients by referral? Do you accept Medicare and Medicaid?

Reply
May 23, 2017 07:59:56   #
crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island
 
buffalo wrote:
Then I ask you the same question, crazy, the same question I asked Worried. How do you propose to pay for the health CARE needs of the 100+million elderly, disabled and poor people that generate over 70% of health CARE costs? Or is that not your problem because as a specialist you only see patients by referral? Do you accept Medicare and Medicaid?



We existed since the beginning of this republic without them. They were imposed on us by Lyndon B. Johnson, despite the warnings of organized medicine of runaway utilization and costs, which is exactly what happened.

How do we do without them now? Exactly the same way we did before them. As anyone looks back at his life, he wonders how he got through it but somehow he did. My problems aren't yours, nor yours mine.

You want government guarantees? What's your line of work? I'll propose government guarantees of it then see how you like it.

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May 23, 2017 08:07:57   #
lindajoy Loc: right here with you....
 
mongo wrote:
I don't like it, but, it seems when obama pushed the ACA down the throats of this country, he also gave opportunity to the corporations to raise
health-care costs so high that if we go back to a free market, the costs would stay the same. The free market depends on making arrangements with providers, (doctors, hospitals, drug companies), to give the best care for the most affordable rate. I can't see them taking less money for lifesaving services after they have been used to getting top dollar. They have become top heavy, and have squandered the money on unnecessary
expenses. They never thought that ACA would become a double edged sword that cuts both ways. Now they are getting taxed into bankruptcy by the same party that promised untold opportunities of riches for their participation. That's why they're dropping out of the ACA.
I know there has to be a solution, but anything that doesn't put money in the politicians bank account, will be blocked!

SEMPER FI
I don't like it, but, it seems when obama pushed t... (show quote)


You nail it in reality of what is, that's for sure..

The Insurance industry makes plenty of profit yet they weren't happy with it and since they literally control the market they can and will make it most lucrative for them first..

I don't like any of what 's being tossed around and don't see a solution other than what they wanted all along a single pay or plan..

Reply
 
 
May 23, 2017 08:11:28   #
buffalo Loc: Texas
 
crazylibertarian wrote:
We existed since the beginning of this republic without them. They were imposed on us by Lyndon B. Johnson, despite the warnings of organized medicine of runaway utilization and costs, which is exactly what happened.

How do we do without them now? Exactly the same way we did before them. As anyone looks back at his life, he wonders how he got through it but somehow he did. My problems aren't yours, nor yours mine.

You want government guarantees? What's your line of work? I'll propose government guarantees of it then see how you like it.
We existed since the beginning of this republic wi... (show quote)


Medicare and Medicaid save lives. They help people live longer and provide the peace of mind that comes with affordable health CARE that’s there when they need it. It’s easy to forget that before 1966, roughly half of all seniors were uninsured and many disabled people, families with children, pregnant women and low-income working Americans were unable to afford the medical CARE they needed.

Reply
May 23, 2017 08:14:33   #
Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan
 
Worried for our children wrote:
It's not working because it was never meant to be. The federal government was never intended to have anything to do with healthcare. And I agree, something needs to change, but it's not giving the federal government anymore authority over the people's lives, in fact, universal healthcare would be unconstitutional, violating amendments IX & X.

The preamble says "promote the general Welfare" - not "provide the general welfare".

In my humble opinion what I think you should focus your efforts towards is getting healthcare back to the states, where it belongs. By doing this the people will have choices, each state being different from each other will then come up with ideas and solutions unique to them, and each state can borrow these ideas and solutions from each other to satisfy their needs. The people would then be able to choose a state that best suits their needs. This would also, by force of nature, demand innovation. Certainly not something you would get from the federal government, they would turn healthcare into a soup sandwich, their track record proves it. Not many people point to the VA, as a whole, and say... "Hey! Look at the great job they're doing.
It's not working because it was never meant to be.... (show quote)


Giving healthcare "back to the states" is equally unconstitutional, that is with few exceptions the means used to implement healthcare on a large scale ultimately requires the same tack: Getting voters to agree with a tax to pay for it. Or emboldening insurance companies to enter a state and extract profit my setting higher fees to doctors to get them to participate in their money making schemes.

Healthcare is a mess because we've turned it into a business. Healthcare shouldn't be a business, it needs to operate like a business to keep it's costs in check, but it shouldn't be a business to make money. It incentives care over cures.

Reply
May 23, 2017 08:15:57   #
Gatsby
 
Quite simple; remove the cap on S.S. and Medicare "contributions". Those are simply a sur-tax on the poor,

and S.S., medicare and medicade funding would then be solvent for the next century.

For decades, this money has gone into the general fund,

lowering the "total tax rate" on those with the highest income.

Next eliminate 90% of income tax credits, these are primaily "welfare for the wealthy".
buffalo wrote:
Then I ask you the same question, crazy, the same question I asked Worried. How do you propose to pay for the health CARE needs of the 100+million elderly, disabled and poor people that generate over 70% of health CARE costs? Or is that not your problem because as a specialist you only see patients by referral? Do you accept Medicare and Medicaid?

Reply
May 23, 2017 08:23:19   #
Worried for our children Loc: Massachusetts
 
buffalo wrote:
Hey Worried, what do you intend to do with the 100+MILLION elderly, disabled and poor people that depend on Medicare and Medicaid, 1 out of 3 Americans, IF government should not be involved in health CARE? You think big, private, for profit health INSURANCE corporations are going to, or the "free" market? Ha! The government, YOU say shouldn't be involved in health CARE, already funds 65% of the $3.35 TRILLION health CARE bill or the equivalent of $6,700 of the $10,335 for every man, woman and child in the US. Why is that? Because it is the elderly, disabled and poor that generate the most in health CARE costs. So, how would you propose to pay for and take care of those 100 MILLION peoples' health CARE needs if government involvement in health CARE is unConstitutional?
Hey Worried, what do you intend to do with the 10... (show quote)


Simple Buffalo, all those elderly people live in different states, not all in one state, right? Whichever state develops a solution to best address that issue, shares it with the other states, and voila, the elderly issue more directly addressed. In regards to your reasoning of 65%, just because it's done, doesn't make it right, and certainly not constitutional. Remember when you asked me about education? (Another issued that was to be left to the states) Well, treat it the same way. Your incessant push to have big brother take care of you is a down right shame. After we give big brother control of our lives through healthcare, what next? If we followed your suggestions about healthcare, we'd all be eating soup sandwiches; no thanks. BTW, in order to implement your plan, you'd have to amend Article I section 8, best of luck with that. It also irks me to see your willingness to discard the Bill of Rights, hopefully one day you'll see the light.

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