rumitoid wrote:
No, as I said, the commune life (of monasticism) had certain principles and practices that were grafted into C*******m. Not the Catholic Church. The Early Church would be called c*******tic today. By "Early Church" I am speaking very specifically of that period before acceptance by Rome, or what is considered the establishment of the Catholic Church.
Monasticism,. or more generally, asceticism, can be found in EVERY major (and minor) religious view. So now what?
justk*****gtime wrote:
Except Jesus is not a Roman Catholic. Furthermore, socialism is based on having the government own the means of production and distribution of goods and services. Jesus said sell what you have and follow Him, not turn what you own over to the government.
JKT": I wish I was less drunk than I am I now. .Clearly Jesus is NOT a Roman Catholic. Are you? by your critique, it suggests you are.
As an aside, I thought facism held that private industry should be under control of government edict. But maybe I have that wrong. . . .
justk*****gtime wrote:
Capitalism is the starting point on the road that leads to c*******m,. . . . C*******ts and conservatives, i.e., libertarians are the same in their view that government was not needed.
I like your novel way of equating the two, but it seems a vast stretch. And if I understand BUrke and the Founders, they recognize the necessity of "instituting governments among men."
Jeffery
rumitoid wrote:
No, as I said, the commune life (of monasticism) had certain principles and practices that were grafted into C*******m. Not the Catholic Church. The Early Church would be called c*******tic today. By "Early Church" I am speaking very specifically of that period before acceptance by Rome, or what is considered the establishment of the Catholic Church.
Agreed. But how does that help us now. (drunkblogging, mea culpa)
We hold these t***hs to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed [/quote]
Seems pretty basic to me. How would you change that
Jeffery
justk*****gtime wrote:
Capitalism is the starting point on the road that leads to c*******m, not a waystation. Marx assumed that c*******m could never gain headway except in industrialized, and thus capitalistic, countries. Places like the Soviet Union and The Peoples Republic of China are more properly classified as socialist countries because the government controls everything. But Marx predicted that once c*******m was achieved there would be no government because everybody would cooperate to maintain a c*******t society where government would not be necessary. C*******ts and conservatives, i.e., libertarians are the same in their view that government was not needed.
Capitalism is the starting point on the road that ... (
show quote)
I'm seeing sympathy to this point of view. Am I wrong?
justk*****gtime wrote:
Documentation?
Check the "red letter" quotations of Jesus and see if you don't see socialism there.
rumitoid wrote:
Commune-ism was invented by the Catholic Church and many of its principles were the groundwork for present day C*******m.
So you're suggesting that Marx, Engles, and Lenin were using the Catholic church as the primary example of social organization?
justk*****gtime wrote:
Actually is it socialism that Marx saw as a necessary step on the road to c*******m, so I take it you dont understand c*******t theory nearly as much as you claim you do.
sorry, drunkblogging.
I never claimed to "understand c*******t theory," period. Are you suggesting that my view of c*******t theory is wrong, that c*******m is seen NOT as an evolutionary artifact of social development that includes capitalism as a developmental stage?
justk*****gtime wrote:
I dont know what the current status is, but about 15-20 years ago I heard a news story about a government sanctioned form of Roman Catholicism that exists in The Peoples Republic of China.
The CHICOMS are a pragmatic bunch. I have a feeling that they're letting all the ills of western culture into the country because they'll bring with them all the industrial benefits. I believe it is Marxist theory that holds capitalism as a necessary step in evolution toward c*******m. I think that after the failure and excesses (60-100 million dead) of the cultural revolution they realized that they couldn't go from agrarian to c*******t in one big step.
You can't hang the capitalists with the rope they've made unless you first let them make the rope. Which western capitalists are happy to oblige it appears. But the day of reckoning is coming, I think.
Welcome, Ricardo. Jump in when you feel the urge.
justk*****gtime wrote:
The United States was never a Christian nation as far as ever having a majority of the American People follow the same form of Christianity goes (and the different forms are quite often mutually exclusive of each other so they cannot all be legitimate forms of Christianity to begin with). But since the end of World War II any hope of having a legitimate Christian organization in America has evaporated. America is now a post-Christian nation.
You've limited the definition of "Christian nation" to artificially constrain the claim. All "forms" of American Christianity saw themselves as Christian, and they most certainly did not or do not qualify as any other religion. Your claim is akin to those anti-evolutionists who say that humans can't be primates.
And suggesting that there has to be one overarching hierarchical control over religion in order to qualify as a Christian nation is likewise half-bubble off. There never was a single organizing hierarchy of American Christians, but it would be false in the extreme to believe that the majority of Americans through its entire history were anything but Christian.
justk*****gtime wrote:
You claimed that c*******m is incompatible with Christianity. If you count Roman Catholicism as Christianity, then Poland illustrates that you are wrong about c*******m.
C*******m is incompatible with Catholicism and any form of theism in general. They suppressed all forms of religion during the Iron Curtain years. Polish C*******m tolerated Catholicism as a dying religion on its way out. C*******m as it was practiced in the East Bloc countries required that the State replace God as the source of moral authority.
justk*****gtime wrote:
The same was true of the N**i Party rallies in Nuremberg. As a reporter for CBS William Shirer had to cover these rallies one year. And in his Berlin Diary he compared the Germans with snake handling holy rollers in Louisiana.
that's like saying Lincoln and Pol Pot were equivalent because they both presided over destructive civil wars.
justk*****gtime wrote:
your average Democrat will at least pay lip service to the plight of the working class. Republicans dont even make the attempt anymore.
Au Contraire, mon ami. I believe that conservatives have in mind that it is more helpful to create jobs than to direct welfare t***sfer payments to victims. What is true compassion? Is it giving someone a low level unearned existence, or is it creating an environment with a high rate of employment and respecting the earnings of the individual, wh**ever they may be?