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Oct 19, 2021 14:16:51   #
American Vet wrote:
We can never achieve what all persons would consider a 'satisfactory outcome'.

As you note, people are not the same. The boy talented in music is certainly free to try and play football - and the football player can try out for the orchestra.


If there is an orchestra. Or band. There wasn't either of them. The example was actually what happened in my school. There was a merger with another school a couple of years after I graduated. If I had been determined enough, or knowledgeable enough, I think I might have commuted to another school for instrumental music, possibly as Archie did for his agriculture course. At age 14 I wasn't much good at reaching out to such options. I suppose those of us who are a little different are better off in a larger environment where there are more options ready at hand.

American Vet wrote:

Let their ability/drive take them where they want.

As far as the 'budget' issue - that is ultimately decided by the v**ers. (Title IX is an example of this).

You make several good points: However, to me, equal remains supreme.
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Oct 19, 2021 14:05:40   #
The Ms. wrote:
Did anyone read Lois Lowery ,
“ The Giver”? It would clarify this thread!


I think I vaguely remember it, but don't see the connection.
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Oct 19, 2021 14:02:58   #
Ricktloml wrote:
Ah those fair nominations like Clarence Thomas/Robert Bork/Bret Kavanaugh/Amy Barret/ANY Republican appointee. Obama's appointees were not vilified and were passed without rancor. Also didn't hear any l*****t complaining about BOTH nominees being far-left...no Obama is the one who pointed out e******ns have consequences and too bad if half the country would have preferred at least a moderate judge. Fairness?! Good grief. You want to place blame on the number of nominations President Trump had...take a long hard look at Ruth Bader-Ginsberg. She obviously thought, (even with advanced age and cancer,) she was going to outlive Trump's presidency. You l*****ts had no problem having a majority left-wing judiciary. BOTH Obama appointees were far-left and activist judges. And it isn't right-wing judges Trump appointed, but originalists. And they haven't v**ed as a monolith. But ANY judge that doesn't push/protect a l*****t agenda is vilified. The word that best sums up the left's response to ANY conservative policy/appointment...hypocrisy.
Ah those fair nominations like Clarence Thomas/Rob... (show quote)


All that, whether true or false, is beside the point for what I was talking about, which was mainly that the McConnell-led, Republican-led Senate refused to consider the Garland nomination, not even allowing a hearing on it, for a long time until it expired, obviously in an unprincipled way because they behaved oppositely later (Coney-Barrett confirmation).

As somebody else has said, this is about process. And so, I say: What should have had a hearing was denied a hearing.

Of course we care about outcomes too; but we should at least be able to agree on some fair process and uphold it. There was ample precedent, to illustrate that such things should get hearings in an even-handed process. McConnell did what he could to try to bludgeon that notion to death. But he didn't entirely succeed; because many of us _did_ notice, and do remember, and do still cherish the concept that there can be "hearings in an even-handed process". So , though we lost that round in 2016, we didn't totally give up on the idea of "fairness" in government, or that government can be better than just a cynical race to the bottom.
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Oct 19, 2021 13:43:01   #
Blade_Runner wrote:
Some progressive activists and commentators are understandably frustrated that the Senate refused to consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court. Some sued (making borderline frivolous claims). Others argued that Obama could simply appoint Garland without Senate consent. The problem, in both cases, is that the Senate has no constitutional obligation to consider a president's nominees. While prior Senates largely used this power to withhold consent for lower court or executive branch nominees (leaving some judicial nominees in limbo even longer than Garland), there is no constitutional reason to treat a Supreme Court nomination differently.

Since the e******n, some are advancing a new strategy to place Garland on the high court: a recess appointment. This idea was floated by David Dayen in New Republic in November and endorsed this week in New York magazine by Ed Kilgore. The problem with this idea, however, is that it is clearly precluded by Supreme Court precedent and, even were this not the case, would be entirely fruitless.

Dayen and Kilgore suggest that Obama could recess-appoint Garland to the Supreme Court (and other nominees to lower courts) on Jan. 3 during the short recess between the 114th and 115th Congresses. This intersession recess may be infinitesimally short—perhaps no longer than the time between two swings of a gavel—but (the theory goes) must exist as there must be some amount of time between the end of one session and the start of the next.

The idea here is not new. President Theodore Roosevelt used this intersession recess to make numerous recess appointments in 1903. The practice was never repeated, however, and the theory upon which TR's actions were based were largely disavowed by subsequent administrations. But that's hardly the only problem with an intersession recess appointment.

The real problem with trying to make such an intersession recess appointment is that the Supreme Court has held that such an appointment would be unconstitutional in Noel Canning v. NLRB. Dayen and Kilgore purport to address Noel Canning – claiming it does not apply since the case concerned only intrasession recess appointments—but they ignore what Justice Breyer's opinion for the court actually says. As Seth Barrett Tillman points out, Noel Canning clearly precludes such an appointment. From Justice Breyer's opinion:

we conclude that the phrase "the recess" applies to both intra-session and inter-session recesses. If a Senate recess is so short [i.e., less than 3 days] that it does not require the consent of the House, it is too short to trigger the Recess Appointments Clause. See Art. I, § 5, cl. 4. And a recess lasting less than 10 days is presumptively too short as well.

If a three-day recess is too short, a three-second recess would certainly be as well and, contrary to Dayen's and Kilgore's suggestion, Justice Breyer's opinion makes no distinction between intrasession and intersession recesses. All told, every justice on the court embraced an opinion rejecting the idea that such an intersession recess appointment would be constitutional.

The problems with the Dayen and Kilgore gambit do not end there, however. Such an appointment, even if attempted, would be futile, but not for the reasons they suggest. Kilgore says a Garland recess appointment could be nixed only by a Senate v**e to reject Garland's nomination—giving him the v**e Democrats have called for—or through "extensive litigation." He's wrong on both counts. A v**e against Garland's confirmation would not undo a recess appointment, and litigation, "extensive" or otherwise, would not be necessary to remove Garland from the bench.

Dayen rightly notes that it would be difficult to quickly arrange a lawsuit to challenge the constitutionality of Garland's appointment (though such suits have been brought before). Yet such a suit would not be required. All that the Senate would need to do is end its next session by adjourning sine die and Garland's term would end. This is because, under the Constitution's Recess Appointments Clause, such appointments terminate at the end of the next Senate session. Adjourning sine die would require the cooperation of the House and a president's signature, but that would be no obstacle come Jan. 20. In other words, Congress could terminate any recess appointment made by Obama in less than three weeks.

Kilgore concludes:

None of this is likely to happen, in part because Barack Obama isn't built that way, and in part because Democrats might fear the gesture would distract attention from the terrible things the new Trump administration and its congressional allies are trying to do to the country on many fronts.

No. The real reason this is unlikely to happen is that it would be unlawful and unavailing—and there is virtually no chance that someone of Garland's character would participate in such a gambit.

Update: I should have added that another reason this won't happen is that recess-appointing Garland to the Supreme Court would create a vacancy on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit that could then be filled by President Trump.
i Some progressive activists and commentators are... (show quote)


That's got some tricky gambits and legal technicalities. I'd much prefer a more straightforward process. I agree with these lines:

"Some progressive activists and commentators are understandably frustrated that the Senate refused to consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court."

"... Barack Obama isn't built that way ...". One may hope so.

"... there is virtually no chance that someone of Garland's character would participate in such a gambit." I don't know all _that_ much about Obama and Garland, but I think they are the sort who favor straightforward, fair processes. Some other people are noticeably more devious and unfair.
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Oct 19, 2021 13:26:39   #
Cuda2020 wrote:
Quote:"People, and the USA, are capable of better than that. Even the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are, at least in part, studies in fairness.:"end quote.

Yes 3507, some people are better then that, are more evolved and see the bigger picture, while others, who reply with... {The Ms. wrote: Whoever said politics was Fair! Definition of screw or be screwed!!!!} are not.

That attitude promotes unethical practice. This is what all the lawyers on the right do, they look for tactics that are allowable because no law as been created yet against it, no matter how unethical they are...they are not against the law, which means in their minds, it is completely acceptable.

This is our new working congress. Now people on the left are hollering for the left to stay in par and play just as dirty, and there goes the entire integrity of the US. and our totally exploited constitution. That is what's happening with this runaway train.
Quote:"People, and the USA, are capable of be... (show quote)


In addition, I would amplify about lawyers. I've observed some lawyers in action. Some of them behave very cynically; they seem to be willing to do anything they can get away with, no matter how untrue or unfair or harmful it is. But I've encountered other lawyers who behave better than that.

At least a couple of lawyers have told me that regardless of what's good or who's right or wh**ever the evidence may prove, the judge may rule oppositely. It's one of the most depressing things I've ever been told. It's like saying: it doesn't matter what's right or good, nor does it matter whether you happen to have a really strong evidential case, nor whether all the many witnesses support your side of the case; you are just going in to see an autocratic judge who might do anything and there's nothing you can do about it.

I saw some lawyers playing the game, trying to anticipate a particular judge's bias and then pandering to it, rather than presenting a case on its own merits. (Actually, I think most lawyers do a mixture of good and bad behaviors.)

Some lawyers have an additional thing going on in their heads. They have a vision of what a truly good process would look like, and they do spend some effort trying to make that good vision come true. I saw one of them succeed pretty well at that. Honestly, even then I still wasn't satisfied, but I'm saying there really is a significant difference between the worse lawyers and the better lawyers, and it's not all just dog-eat-dog cynicism; and there really is a good process that can be obtained at least some of the time, and the whole system can be improved, and we should not just give up on the whole idea of justice, courts, law, nor government.
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Oct 19, 2021 12:51:05   #
Cuda2020 wrote:
Yep, just like for many southerners, they never lost the war, people will have selective reasoning and stand their ground, no matter what. This is something Trump was clearly already aware of before he ever ran for the presidency, which is why he perpetuated..."The only way I will lose is if they rig the e******n," he's a regular Johnny Apple Seed.


I agree.

You say "selective reasoning". Another way to describe the situation is that people like to _belong_ (or "bond" in a group) and also enjoy feeling secure, superior, or stronger that some other people. If a politician or leader helps them to _feel_ good in such ways, they'll probably favor that politician or leader, regardless of how bad s/he is in all other ways. I picked up this idea from an essay "The Cruelty Is The Point" by Adam Serwer, Oct. 3, 2018, appearing in The Atlantic magazine, which I did not see, but I found the same essay in a book by the same title and author.

Fortunately that's not the only thing that motivates people; but it is one strong thing.
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Oct 19, 2021 12:35:13   #
American Vet wrote:
And every Americans job is to insure that good laws are passed by electing the right people and certainly holding them accountable.


True, though I might sometimes emphasize "issues" more than "the right people".
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Oct 19, 2021 12:30:22   #
The Ms. wrote:
Laws can be unfair!!!!As when women were denied access to jobs until 1972
when the law was changed! Just some history…..


Yes, laws can be unfair. More than that, we _can_ _improve_ the set of laws.

I say a similar thing about government. We _can_ _improve_ it.
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Oct 18, 2021 23:57:40   #
lindajoy wrote:
Do you believe had the parties control been different the dems would not have done the same? As a matter of fact they did try to place Garland but didn’t have the senate control or they would have too..

Filling a Supreme Court seat in an e******n year happens more often than you think…

How unusual is it really to fill a Supreme Court vacancy during a p**********l e******n year?

That question is at the heart of the political fight to replace former Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who died Saturday at 79.

But as it turns out, several Democratic and Republican presidents have filled a vacancy on the nation’s highest court in the middle of a heated campaign season.

Since 1900, presidents have nominated seven people for seats on the Supreme Court during an e******n year, according to SCOTUSblog. Six of the seven were confirmed by the Senate…

As it turns out, several Democratic and Republican presidents have filled a vacancy on the nation’s highest court in the middle of a heated campaign season….
The Senate confirmed Mahlon Pitney to replace John Marshall Harlan during President William Taft’s last year in office in 1912. Woodrow Wilson placed two men on the Supreme Court, Louis Brandeis and John Clarke, while running for re-e******n in 1916.

Herbert Hoover added Benjamin Cardozo to the court in 1932, the year he lost re-e******n to Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Frank Murphy joined the court eight years later, as FDR faced off against Wendell Willkie in the 1940 p**********l race.

Most recently, Justice Anthony Kennedy was confirmed by a Democratic-controlled Senate in 1988, during Ronald Reagan’s final year in office.

The only exception came in 1968, when the Senate blocked the nomination of Abe Fortas, Lyndon Johnson’s pick to replace Chief Justice Earl Warren. (Dwight Eisenhower appointed William Brennan to the court during a Senate recess in 1956; Brennan was confirmed by the Senate the following year, after Eisenhower won re-e******n).

In the days since Scalia’s death, Democratic leaders have pointed to the past as they’ve urged the Republican-controlled Senate to fill Scalia’s seat this year.

“It would be unprecedented in “recent history”
for the Supreme Court to go a year with a vacant seat,” Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said in a statement.

Democratic p**********l candidate Hillary Clinton argued that the Senate has a “constitutional responsibility here that it cannot abdicate for partisan political reasons.”

Clinton’s opponents have said they won’t back down, setting up a battle that could help define the e******n and reshape the congressional calendar during President Obama’s final 11 months in office. They fought to do the very thing you chastise the republicans for and had they had the senate v**es would have in fact put Garland in place.

You may recall there is no absolute requirement to replace or not and the vetting Process we witnessed with Kavaungh was brutal, vicious and a d********g display yet it stopped nothing but lesson the respect of those who got into the most d********g plot of attempted political Annihilation of a judge who has an outstanding performance in duty..“We’re going to have an e******n in November where this vacancy is going to be an item of debate and v**ers are going to get their weigh in,” Senator Marco Rubio of Florida said on Meet the Press yesterday. Rubio added, “I don’t trust Barack Obama on the appointment of Supreme Court justices.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/filling-a-supreme-court-seat-in-an-e******n-year-happens-more-often-than-you-think

So please let me re~ask you what, specific unfair vetting process or procedural process was cast unfairly??? Recognizing of course both parties have placed justices during their final year in office??

https://www.scotusblog.com/2016/02/supreme-court-vacancies-in-p**********l-e******n-years/

And if you pay attention to the presidents and appointees here you see their is no “ unfair” anything… You find it is politics as usual one party taking full advantage during their control that's all..

Fairness in politics??~~ Never, 3507… It isn't set up up that way both parties doing wh**ever necessary to be in control to wreck havoc on our country not for the betterment of it..As we witness every day!
Do you believe had the parties control been differ... (show quote)


I see you are giving many examples of filling a Supreme Court vacancy in the last year of a term. I'm in favor of filling a Supreme Court vacancy "in the last year", or any year, of a term, although I have doubts about doing it in a rush during the very tail end of that year. My complaint was not specifically over the fact that a justice was put onto the Supreme Court during the last year of a p**********l term. My complaint was & is that the Republican leadership of the Senate, mainly Mitch McConnell himself, made _such_ an extreme difference between how the Garland and the Coney-Barrett nominations were treated, refusing to hold a hearing (!) on _such_ an important matter (Garland nomination). I can see you are trying to address, or are contradicting, this point, when you say:

"Clinton’s opponents have said they won’t back down, setting up a battle that could help define the e******n and reshape the congressional calendar during President Obama’s final 11 months in office. They fought to do the very thing you chastise the republicans for and had they had the senate v**es would have in fact put Garland in place."

Sorry I don't get what you are saying. Who are those "Clinton's opponents"? Are they some Democratic Senators? (Does this have something to do with Bernie Sanders? Please be more explicit about that part.) If "they" "would in fact put Garland in place", how could that be "the very thing" I "chastise the republicans for"? There were about 10 months when Garland _should_ have been either "put in place" or at least gotten a _hearing_ about it.
The main point of my gripe is the way Mitch McConnell refused to have that hearing for Garland. A _secondary_ part of my gripe is the way McConnell _reversed_ his stance on his stated _principle_ and _rushed_ the Coney Barrett nomination through; I wouldn't complain so much about Coney Barrett being installed if it weren't such a stark contrast, and such a baldly unprincipled thing, as seen alongside how McConnell treated the Garland nomination and the reasoning or excuse he gave for what he did.

Then finally, you seem to be saying (as McConnell essentially did) that Democrats would do the same thing if they had the chance. (You wrote: "it is politics as usual one party taking full advantage during their control that's all" and: "Fairness in politics??~~ Never, 3507… It isn't set up up that way both parties doing wh**ever necessary to be in control to" wreak "havoc on our country not for the betterment of it..As we witness every day!"). When Democrats have a majority in the Senate, I don't see _them_ delaying a nomination for 10 or 11 months until it expires. Also, I don't see Democrats being such sore losers that they would rather make up stuff ad nauseam, refuse to accept myriad court decisions, and incite a violent c**p, rather than concede an e******n. I've never seen a Democrat p**********l nominee act that way, though some have had plenty of reason to doubt an e******n (Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004) (and, reference: the work of investigative reporter Greg Palast). Another thing I've never seen high Democrat officials do is insult so many people and so many nations the way Trump has done. Trump even suggested his supporters rough up people, and there's been more violence since then. I've never seen a Democrat president encourage violence and disrespect in such ways.
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Oct 17, 2021 23:07:41   #
American Vet wrote:
And what you described is a process problem; and processes can be changed.

What happened you view as "unfair". Had there been a law/Senate rule/etc. in place, then e******y would have happened.


There will never be laws sufficient to address all the little loopholes or various unfairnesses that unscrupulous individuals can dream up. Nor should there be; the system of laws shouldn't be endlessly complicated. We do need laws, but we also need an additional concept, which I call "fairness" or "fair play" or decency, and accountability to behave reasonably.

I guess some people would think that the Senate leader deliberately denying the Merrick Garland nomination a hearing, for a really long time until it's effectively never, would be fair, or that fairness is irrelevant. I haven't heard anyone actually address that specific point, except the people who think it's _unfair_. The remainder of the people seem to be side-stepping the question, and it seems that it doesn't bother _them_ to have a Senate leader who behaves that way. Maybe they have no standard of behavior at all, except wh**ever it takes to get what they want. You've claimed the law as a kind of standard, but I'm saying that mere legality is not sufficient as a standard of behavior.

And, regarding laws: Laws aren't even always good laws. Somebody has to have some higher standard to compare them to: something beyond mere legality. That's how we can decide which laws we want Congress to enact or to repeal or to revise. There has to be some kind of "why" behind it all; and one word, to try to capture that concept, is "fairness".

With such a concept in mind, one can look at expanding the size of the Supreme Court (a legal thing Congress can do) (which I think might be a good idea), or one can look at denying the Merrick Garland nomination a hearing for almost a year until the nomination expires (which may also be technically "legal", I suppose) (and I think it was a terrible thing to do), and form an idea of whether we want our elected officials to behave that way, and hold them accountable to a standard of behavior which goes beyond the mere technicalities of legality. I believe it's also legal for a president to cause atomic bombs to be dropped all over the world, on a whim. Would you want Biden to do that? If it's legal, then what argument could you possibly have against it?
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Oct 17, 2021 22:31:41   #
American Vet wrote:
Interesting article. However it is flawed in it's basic precepts.

"People will never be exactly equal to each other"
It isn't about people being equal, it is about people being ***treated*** equally. Big difference. (If I could highlight this in big letters and bright colors, I would do so).



Yes, being treated equally is different from being equal.

There's still a relationship between the two concepts, anyway. The fact that people _are_ _unequal_ in some ways leads to the fact that they don't all want to be treated in just one prescribed "equal" way. So, just to pull an example out of a hat, suppose some boys love to play football and have some talent for that; and some other boys love to play instrumental music and have some talent for that. An official, or a school board, could give them all an equal opportunity to play football. But if there's insufficient budget for both, either football or instrumental music won't be available at that school. The boys are all treated "equally" in that they are all given the exact same opportunity (to play football, if that's the budget option the officials chose). But that works a lot better for the boys who love to play football, while it's rather unhelpful for the boys who prefer to play instrumental music. All the boys are treated the same. I'm not claiming fairness nor unfairness in this situation (not quite yet), I'm just saying that _being_ unequal means that being _treated_ equally sometimes doesn't lead to equivalently satisfactory outcomes for all the boys. That's because they are not all exactly equal in the same ways.

I actually have another idea in mind, and was just warming up, to get to it. It is that the _reason_ for equal treatment is to be fair. Equal treatment is an attempt to be fair, which will sometimes work well but sometimes won't work well. I sympathize about the dilemma that fairness is harder to determine or define than equal treatment is. So, we have "equal treatment" as an approximation to treating everybody _well_ and being _fair_, because "equal treatment" is at least relatively easy to define and implement.

In the above school example, the school officials may eventually discover some better way to treat everybody well and fairly. If they can get past their fixation with merely treating everybody equally, they might think of, say, merging with a neighboring school so that the combined budgets will allow the musically-inclined students to be treated better according to what fits _them_. I'd call that "more fair" than the other arrangement where the only idea was to give everybody the same equal treatment. Or it least it _might_ be more fair, depending on the circumstances. If the school (or nation, if the example were about a nation) were a democracy then all the students would be able to put their ideas of fairness into the system, so as to help determine what will be done as an attempt to satisfy, or "be fair", to everyone.
American Vet wrote:


Definition: "To be fair is to be consistent with rules, logic, AND ethics."
Rules are man-made: Ethics are man-made. What Hitler did, by his standards (and he and his party were in power and placed "in charge") was consistent with the rules and ethics he made. Same can be said about Mao, Stalin, etc.

The concept of e******y, in the US, means that all humans, by virtue of birth, have the same rights, and the same ability to exercise those rights. It did not ever mean or imply that everyone should have the same health care, education, wealth, housing, social status, sexual orientation, etc. When laws are made in any country they are obviously meant to be followed by all the citizens of that country. If this is true all citizens must follow all laws then, the t***h is also that all the punishments assigned for specific crimes should also be the same for all.

1. Nobody is beyond the law.
2. The law is supreme. It treats all as equals.
3. Law applies to all to rich or poor

(paraphrased from as essay on Bartleby)
br br Definition: "To be fair is to be cons... (show quote)


Yes, those are pretty good concepts about the law.

The law is another approximation to being fair.
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Oct 17, 2021 02:14:41   #
American Vet wrote:
"The process was not designed for, and not intended for, blocking one party's nominee for almost a year and then rushing the other party's nominee in a much shorter time."

Then it is process problem that may need to be fixed - and there is a legislative process to do just that.


I think you know, or could figure that out. It's because the Senate majority derives from numbers of states (unlike the House majority, which derives from the numbers of people).

Of course I know: Bit it seemed you did not. And there is a reason for it - and I think you know that as well. But if not:

"When the United States was founded, many worried about the populous states having an undue influence on legislation that might be passed by the new Congress. So, a bicameral legislature was created. One part, the House of Representatives was based on the concept of "one person, one v**e." The number of House members each state got was based on that state's population.

That was just what the founders were afraid of, so they set up a second body in Congress - the Senate. Its membership was based on the idea that each state in this new United States would have equal representation, with two Senators from each state having seats in the Senate. The idea was balancing the power of the citizen against the power of the separate states. Both bodies were required to pass all new legislation. That was designed to prevent either body from misusing its power to control things.

And that was the idea. The United States of America is not a democracy. It is a Representative Republic. Both the people and the states are represented in its Congress to form a legislative body that supposedly would create balanced legislation."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212004820


"Of course that happens, but it is also common to say something is "unfair" when it really is "unfair".

And the British monarchy felt it was quite fair since they were the monarchy and the colonists were mere subjects.
And this is precisely what I stated - "fair" decided by someone else.

As you said, the colonist presented their complaint and "the people who paid attention and cared about fairness would probably agree with the Declaration of Independence, and acknowledge that what they said was unfair really was unfair". Not quite an accurate statement: there were quite a few "loyalists" who wanted to stay aligned with the British monarchy.
"The process was not designed for, and not in... (show quote)


The reason you write for the Senate doesn't look to me like a very good reason. But anyway, we do have the Senate which is not based on the numbers of people, but instead has 2 senators from each "state".

And, as we like stability (even to the extent that "mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed" (as said in the Decl. of Indep.)), we still have the Senate composed that way, whether it's a good idea or not.

But, as I said earlier, there was an unfairness done, to the majority of the _people_, which generally prefers the Democratic presidents and their nominees. I didn't say something else like "to the majority of the states" or wh**ever. Now, as to whether it was an "unfairness", as I say it is, I am referring to Mitch McConnell deliberately denying the Merrick Garland nomination to the Supreme Court a hearing, for many months, for McConnell's declared principle (regarding last year of a p**********l term) which he extremely violated in the last couple of months of the Trump administration. The Merrick Garland nomination deserved a hearing; McConnell denied it a hearing, and _I_ say that was "unfair". If there _had_ been a hearing for it, I would call that much more "fair". My concept of fairness generally holds that things which are supposed to get hearings really should get hearings.

If you have some other concept about fairness, or maybe don't care in the same way about fairness, so be it, but I'm saying _my_ piece about it, and maybe some people feel likewise, and maybe some other people feel otherwise.

And I'll probably say essentially the same thing again and again, such as in some letter to a congressperson or in wh**ever handy venue presents itself. That's part of my little contribution to the democratic process, being one person in it. Meanwhile you _could_ say McConnell was _fair_ about _that_; I wonder whether people will agree with you on that point, or will instead just fail to respond meaningfully at all. Maybe a lot of people will just say that fairness is irrelevant; if so, then they shouldn't complain that anything somebody _else_ does is unfair, either.
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Oct 17, 2021 01:22:17   #
lindajoy wrote:
Interesting allegations, thank you for posting it feeding off of another post

So then what was so unfair when bo appointed his two SC justices to the SCOTUS itself??
Point out please “specifically what was unfair in the vetting proceeds or rules of procedure..” I’m curious of your position snd what brings you to your conclusions…

He did made two successful appointments to the Supreme Court of the United States, right?? Sure he did.~~The first was Judge Sonia Sotomayor to fill the vacancy created by the retirement of Justice David H. Souter. Sotomayor was confirmed by the United States Senate on August 6, 2009, by a v**e of 68–31. The second appointment was that of Solicitor General Elena Kagan to replace the retired John Paul Stevens. Kagan was confirmed by the Senate on August 5, 2010, by a v**e of 63–37…
Interesting allegations, thank you for posting it ... (show quote)


"feeding off another post"?

"bo"?

Mitch McConnell deliberately prevented Obama from getting a nominee onto the Supreme Court in the last year of Obama's tenure as President. McConnell claimed it was according to principle (having to do with the last year of a p**********l term), and then violated his own principle in the last couple of months of Trump's term. And then when confronted about it he said "You would do it too." Lindsay Graham did similarly (he said "use my words against me" and then violated the same declared principle regarding "last year of term" of a president), but I think McConnell deserves by far the most blame. So far as I know, nobody but Republicans have ever done that, but now of course to obtain e******y the Democrats will have to do something equally underhanded, or else somehow make it impossible for Republicans to keep doing odd unfair stuff like that, or, as a third alternative, find some other adjustment such as expanding the size of the court. Expanding the size of the court _is_ a legal option -- there's nothing in the Law which says what the size of the court has to be: Congress can change it.

What McConnell did had consequences for all of us. It resulted in one fewer appointments to the Supreme Court from Obama and one more appointments to the Supreme Court from Trump. McConnell did it by declaring one principle during Obama's term and then doing the exact opposite during Trump's term. Delaying the confirmation hearing of Merrick Garland for many months until the nomination expired was a deliberate and dastardly thing to do. That nomination deserved a hearing; McConnell denied it a hearing.
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Oct 17, 2021 00:41:46   #
American Vet wrote:
And "fair" and "equal" often DO NOT coincide. And therein lies the problem: Someone gets to decide 'what is fair'.

Do you want to be treated equally? Or fairly (keeping in mind that someone else decides 'what is fair')?


To answer your question directly, I'd rather be treated fairly, even if other people decide what's fair, but not if only one or a few people decide what's fair for all. In an active democracy, a common idea of fairness emerges, and that's a good thing, even though it's likely to be fuzzy around the edges. In an active democracy, I can contribute to the general formulation of fairness. I am doing so, for example by occasionally writing to my congressional representative, and by v****g; almost everything has some element of fairness or unfairness in it.

A draft definition of fairness appears below, within this post. "Equal" is also treated below, in a parenthetical comment.

Whether "fairly" coincides with "equally" depends on the situation.

An example where fair and equal do NOT coincide is when, through some decision or overly risky behavior, one individual or a small group causes a big disaster which affects a very large group of people. A lot about that is equal because (a) any of us could, if determined, cause a big disaster for a large group (roughly equal opportunity); and (b) many big disasters affect, roughly, _all_ of us (e.g., a bad economy, a p******c, or pollution). But it is unfair to all except the one or few who caused it and may deserve the consequences of their own action.

Equal opportunity also exists between the two Parties in Congress. Either Party could do some dastardly deed that would disgust the Founders. There's no way the Founders could have prevented all such wrongs by writing laws about them all. Without a concept of fairness, and an attempt at fair behavior, and holding people accountable for being reasonably fair, Congress would be just a race to the bottom. So would the presidency, the rest of government, and the rest of society and humanity. Yeah there's some subjectivity involved, but that's generally true of human existence, since we're not just robots.

Neither "fair" nor "equal" will be perfect! (People will never be exactly equal to each other, each person has a different collection of aspects, so they will not all be affected exactly equally by a thing.) I think this is the foundation where you and I diverge: you discard the attempt to be fair, because it's partly subjective (or, imperfect), while I say be as fair as we can and keep improving that if we can.

Do you need an explanation of fairness -- is it just undefined for you? If necessary, I would make a first draft definition of fairness as follows: To be fair is to be consistent with rules, logic, AND ethics. To be ethical is to sincerely try to avoid unnecessary harm to others, and to behave in a way that one could accept as reasonable if in the other person's position.

Like most things, my definition's almost surely _imperfect_, but it's a lot better than giving up on fairness altogether. Such concepts can be refined as needed, with experience, but only if you start trying or allow others to start the trying.
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Oct 16, 2021 00:27:29   #
The Ms. wrote:
Whoever said politics was Fair! Definition of screw or be screwed!!!!


People, and the USA, are capable of better than that. Even the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are, at least in part, studies in fairness.
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