will do!

MemBrain,
I have up to this point at this web site thought that I was answering a person or persons addressing me – apparently that is not the case! I am speaking from the human perspective where as you are disregarding humanity for the sake of pure and strict regimentation? At any rate we cannot find a happy medium, therefore the discussion is pointless. Have a great life!
RonMM

Mr. Yankee Clipper Mr. Augustus Greatorex,
Yes sir I really do comprehend that when you put your everything into building something it can and I know consume you! And I do understand that the many who have taken an opposing stand to me on this issue believe like I do that I am a human being, an American, free to do with what is mine as I see fit and will defend it period! But to the other extreme I have a sister whose employer moved the company south of the border – and wanted her to go there long enough to train her replacement (some gall), which then put her into the unemployment line, and she had bills to pay just like everybody else! It is just so much like a thorn in the side that this and many others think so much of the comma’s in their bank account and so little of their fellow Humans, fellow countryman that they will knowingly and willingly put many people into a financial tailspin! It is easy to get sucked into the intensity the competitiveness of making it go, making it big and watching the profit margin grow, the commas adding up and end up lost to anything outside of that! But still to ruin many of your American Countrymen, other humans with family - in favor of more money and no other reason?
Well it was only a Question – and I don’t think actionable, it is more a morality question anyway!

Mr. Augustus Greatorex,
I agree with most of what you say here, but you still seem to miss the point – if you want to have a country as in borders in which you call your country – ‘My fellow Americans’ and such, you must think and be American and put your countrymen first – NOT to exclude the fact that it is your company just as my home is mine, just as at one time I had my own business and considered it mine to do with as I wished. But I am not talking about a business that is making a good income, employing American people for a fair salary, paying his/its fair share of what it takes to make this a good country in which to have, own, and live. I’m talking about a large/massive company that used every benefit possible – grant/tax break/low interest loan, etc for its creation or growth offered by THIS country. I’m talking about a company that is very prosperous, but apparently in the eyes of the Owner/CEO/Board Members not prosperous enough. One that will dump hundreds if not thousands of employees into joblessness in favor of more prosperity for themselves by moving it overseas to a country that has little to no protections in place to protect its people from the greedy, to pay them next to nothing just for a few extra dollars.
Greed? What is greed? At what point does Prosperity go beyond Prosperity and become Greed? Isn’t there also a morality issue involved, when Prosperity goes beyond prosperity at the expense of your fellow humans too their ruination to support your greed (the word ‘your’ is meant as a get even for the ‘Two-Faced insistence’ cheap-shot you took at me!)?
And you are correct it is not an Americans’ “inalienable right” to have a job. But if big business dumps Americans if favor of the cheap labor and lax laws of another country after all that America has provided for you as a company - just so they can add some more comma’s to their bottom line….
NOW, if you are a ‘New World Order’ Proponent…

Greed folks,
GREED simple GREED…
I’m talking about people, (companys, Owners, board members of companys, etc) who have so much money they probably can’t spell it out in long hand writing – as in: One thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars and 99cents. People who only see other people around them as a source of more money! They aren’t happy with the number of commas in their net worth bottom line. People who give workers a reasonable and safe working environment or an adequate salary ONLY because they need it to make more money or were made too, either by law or by a union! And the only reason they are moving their company is to increase their income. Because they found a country whose people are willing to work for a pittance of money a day (a sweat shop is pictured in my mind here). And I doubt that that company owner had the prosperity of those workers in mind when he moved his company there! The types of companies willing to put their fellow Americans in the welfare line rather than pay a decent wage!
GREED - Nothing more nothing less – GREED!
I almost forgot…could they be part of the ‘NEW WORLD ORDER’?

Must you really…….

wupps

Mr. Yankee Clipper,
You are right they got what they deserved after all they ARE the union and had the ability to cancel the strike and negotiate in good faith and save their jobs in the process, they let a big wig union leader make them believe they had ALL the power! SO wrong! You can’t k**l the golden goose and still expect to get the golden eggs – poor suckers, hope they learned something!
BUT most companies want to keep all the income for themselves and treat the employees like a tool! The only protection from these types is the Law and the unions! But from the sounds of what you described could it be that the big wigs used the strike to bleed off all the moneys, close the plants to sell or use it as an excuse to go bankrupt and to and blame it on the unions? They may well be retired and now living the high life.
Marxism?! I don’t think so – employees want to earn a good living, they see management living in the stratosphere on that stack of money, why can’t employees make enough money for a decent house to live in, decent car to drive, food, clothing, medical attention, in return for a decent days work in a safe workplace.
Free enterprise is the owner of the company selling his product all the way down to the employee selling his sk**ls for a fee! The employees only have the unions to protect themselves from the power of the employers!
There will always be those who abuse – wh**ever it is they want to abuse – hence the “I don’t like humans” phrase in another entry in this thread. :?

Hey! Ms. Donna, Mr. Voice of Reason, And Dutch,
Good to hear from you all! Whew where to start?
Dutch, sorry Dutch mom raised me to respect people which included please and thank you, yes sir/mam, and Mr./Mrs./Ms.
No I didn’t research into the unions c*******t background – I wouldn’t even have thought of it and so don’t see the need – I don’t believe there are many people who even thought that it was possible or that it would even have a bearing on their need for a satisfying life and so wouldn’t give it a thought because that is not part of their life. And if what you’ve said about your contractor business is true that would make you an employee’s dream, and that would make you an exception.
Having been both a shop owner, and a shop manager at different times in my life, and having just retired from a unionized shop, and having been its Chapter president many times I’ve been around. And having watched management attempt to get rid of a good worker but not touch a couple of other workers (term loosely used) who needed to be dealt with (as in teachers’ pet, good ‘ol boys, could do no wrong but did, got out of doing things, that kinda thing). I’ve watched this shop use “substitutes” in place of full time employees to avoid paying them proper wages and benefits, Using an employee hired for one type of job but using him in a position requiring higher sk**l levels yet not paying him for the use of his sk**ls in that area, these kinds of things are some of what unions are supposed to be protecting employees from. I was able to protect the good worker, could only just stand around while the ‘good ol’ boys’ made the union and the other workers look bad – (you know bad things remain in memory while the good are soon forgotten) we couldn’t say anything about the favored ‘good ol’ boys’. And as for the worker being used in a higher job class, when I tried to fix that, he got that job and its pay too, but just short of the term of his probation then it was bye bye! Then after a time used to make things look appropriate they hired a new worker, a favorite! In one case the management did their job correctly with documentation and efforts to retrain him, bring him back into the fold (so to speak), three months – he was gone, and all they had to do was their job, and I watched to ensure his rights weren’t violated, and I waved good riddance – er - bye.
Sorry Dutch, sorry guys I’ve had to deal with good workers and bad workers and also good employers and bad employers and I must say – You can’t take one side “fully” over the other! I am not seeing the world through rose colored glasses anymore, haven’t for a long time. I don’t like humans, they lie, they are self centered, greedy, lazy, villainous, take everything they can get giving little as posible in return, untrustworthy, power hungry, have one huge ecological foot print, a small ecological mind and an even smaller ecological heart!
Oh! What-ever possessed me to say such a thing?
Ms. Donna – as for ‘President’ Obama, I (in two parts) do believe that as far as his ‘Obama Care’ goes I do think that his heart is in the right place, I do think that every Man, Woman, and Child in this country – the whole world for that matter, should have access to good medical care –But (part two) not this way, Greedy, take everything they can get giving little as posible in return, untrustworthy Insurance Companys, Hospitals and Doctors, - and – Then we have the abusers of the system, the Greedy, take everything they can get giving little as posible in return, untrustworthy so called patients! Humans every one! Then as for his “GUN” thing - I think that he (they) are Power Hungry, and not to smart! Background checks! Ha, the bad guys aren’t going to need a background check – they ain’t gonna buy a gun from a legal source, they’ll steal one from those dummies that do buy a legal gun from a legal source and who do get a background check! That way when the bad guy steals the dummies gun and uses it to do the deed, it’s the dummy that takes the heat leaving the bad guy free and clear and able to get away! AND the ever present governmental desire to take our guns gets more support!
No I don’t trust President Obama, he is power hungry, not it seems t***hful, abusive it appears of the people’s money, (but he’s not the only one). I personally believe that he was elected the first time because (as I recall) he said ‘every man, woman, and child will have medical coverage’, and ‘We are going to share the wealth’. Not to mention he is a very good speaker (talker), then, there are the distasteful topics of his racial presence (he’s black-I’m v**e’n for him), his racial minority link(he’s a minority-I’m v**e’n for him), his female attraction(he’s a minority I’m v**e’n for him). Then of course the important things like the other sides – they offered nothing for the people, nothing to help with the jobs situation, nothing to help with inflation – nothing – just some people putting him down because they had nothing good to say, and nothing for the people.
I just wish I could be made dictator for 8 years! Every employer would be like Dutch, and no need for a union!
:roll:

Ms. Donna1937,
Sorry, but you are wrong about getting fired for not performing – all management has to do is do their job –which is document and prove. Then they can get these lazy no good bums out the door! They are one of the reasons unions leave a bad impression with people. Just like in our government, and in companies’, there are bad guys in unions!

Mr. Dutchman, Mr. Voice of Reason,
Without unions we would be living like any other 3rd. world country. We have unions because we have employers - who without pressure from unions wouldn’t pay a livable wage or would heartlessly not have you working in a reasonably safe environment! THAT said you are correct unions are a part of why the greedy CEO move out! But they are a necessary evil! Because companies want to keep their profit margin and the CEO’s want to keep getting their multimillion dollar incomes – and the workers want to do better than survive and only live day to day – hand to mouth they want more- an apparent never ending cycle of ever increasing dollar values – and the investors in the mix making huge $$! And yes unions do sometimes make unreasonable demands but they are not alone in the reasons companies leave the country!
Greed is the biggest reason they leave the country!

Well, I can see that this argument will not be won by either side!
But one thing I know from experience, unions are still necessary!
And I can tell you (all you have to do is look around) that GREED is the common denominator here! Laziness is truly another factor (or another way of wording it is “something for nothing”).
Can you imagine how many candy bars (for example) it takes to buy a 75ft. yacht? Or a Boeing 727 airplane and have it refitted with all the amenities? Or a 2 million dollar house as a weekend getaway? And this person isn’t even the owner of the company- just the CEO, looking for ways to increase the profit margin of the company? And he is just one of probably many C****e upady ups in the company! I’ll bet that $1.10 candy bar would be closer to the 5c candy bar (in price and size) thatI used to buy as a kid in the early 60’s if he took a reasonable salary and paid his workers a reasonable salary! Oh by the way, as I understand it, the term ‘c****e’ is short for ‘c*******m’ and is the bastardized term related to ‘communal’ living in which all worked and all shared! – you are I believe thinking of the dictatorial version in which some strong people got together and used force to take over the working class people and subjugate them – until the subjugated get together and take back a portion! Similar to a pendulum it swings back – sometimes too far!
I too have worked in union shops, both the unionized and the union type and also in non-unionized. Of the unionized ones in one type you must be a union member to continue to work there, and the other more democratic type you may be a member! Believe me I know something about union members and employers – and being many times the president of our local chapter and chief negotiations officer at my last employer I know something about the ways both side think it’s not pretty!
But until something comes along that can satisfy the needs of both (which sounds like big brother again) I think that unions will still be a necessary evil!
Another question! Are either one of you company owners or CEO types?

Mr. Dutchman,
Without unions we would be living like any other 3rd. world country. We have unions because we have employers who without pressure from unions wouldn’t pay a livable wage or have you working in a reasonably safe environment! THAT said you are correct unions are a part of why the greedy CEO move out! But they are a necessary evil! Because companies want to keep their profit margin and the CEO’s want to keep getting their multimillion dollar incomes – and the workers want to do better than survive and only live day to day – hand to mouth they want more- an apparent never ending cycle of ever increasing dollar values – and the investors in the mix making huge $$! And yes unions do sometimes make unreasonable demands but they are not alone in the reasons companies leave the country!
Greed is the reason they leave the country!

Companies that close and relocate plants off shore and what to do about them:
Question: Is it moral and or would it be legal to:
In the event that an American company solely owned or Incorporated by an American makes the decision to close its plant(s) and lay off its workers here in the U.S.A. and move it to another country and hire workers there, what could or should be done?
Personally I find it to be very un-American, and thought comes to mind that we should in some sequence of procedure revoke the ‘citizenship’ of or ‘Depatriate’ anyone involved i.e. the sole owner(s) or in the event that is a board approved move, the ‘citizenship’ of or ‘Depatriate’ any board member v****g yes to the move. Also we should purchase the ‘Resident’ home of the persons involved at fair market value (to be sold and the moneys set aside for use in restart of company), move them and their immediate families (spouse and minor children still living at home) to the country that they moved their company to. The facilities, plants, warehouses, designs, blue prints electronic plans, anything related to the products made by this company purchased at fair market value. We then re-open the company (under the same or new name?). We should rehire or train replacement workers with a fair salary with fair labor conditions and a fair benefits package. There should be no i*****l i*******ts hired – (no if ands or buts). The new administration should be entitled to a ‘fair’ salary same as any other worker but that salary should be a ‘reasonable’ salary not some morally sickening dollar amount. The company should be made to be able to sell the product at or below the cost of the former owners.
Another question: Should this company remain under the direct ‘observation’ with corrective influences of some Monitoring entity or government agency?

Gotcha

In the event that an American company solely owned or Incorporated by an American makes the decision to close its plant(s) and lay off its workers here in the U.S.A. and move it/them to another country and hire workers there, what could or should be done?
Personally I find it to be very un-American, and thought comes to mind that we should in some sequence of procedure revoke the ‘citizenship’ of anyone involved i.e. the sole owner(s) or in the event that is a board approved move, the ‘citizenship’ of any board member v****g yes to the move. Also we should purchase the ‘Resident’ home of the persons involved at fair market value (to be sold and the moneys set aside for use in restart of company), move them and their immediate families (spouse and minor children still living at home) to the country that they moved their company to. The facilities, plants, warehouses, designs, blue prints electronic plans, anything related to the products made by this company purchased at fair market value. We then re-open the company (under the same or new name?). We should rehire or train replacement workers with a fair salary with fair labor conditions and a fair benefits package. There should be no i*****l i*******ts hired – (no if ands or buts). The new administration should be entitled to a ‘fair’ salary same as any other worker but that salary should be a ‘reasonable’ salary not some morally sickening dollar amount. The company should be made to be able to sell the product at or below the cost of the former owners.
Another question: Should this company remain under the direct ‘observation’ with corrective influences of some Monitoring entity or government agency?

Mr. Nestorick
I do currently believe that our ‘Local government and Police’ care about crime and believe that our Federal Government as far as its citizens go is still benign - but - even benign things go bad if not tended to!
Personally I’m sure that the ‘assault/tactical’ weapons are a first step and ruse towards total gun confiscation – which will in the beginning will either put us at the mercy of the bad guy (which the Gov' knows) who will not give up their guns or they will enact laws that give them unlimited powers and we will get m*****a type of police who will not need a reason to invade our homes in the guise of getting the bad guys guns and they may just turn out to be as bad as the ‘bad guy’. Hope and pray I’m/We are wrong!
:shock: