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Oct 14, 2023 20:45:52   #
manning5M wrote:
Am I surprised? No! Do I champion one over the other? Do I support Israel unconditionally or, do I support the Palestinians unconditionally?

To sort this out a bit I asked myself a few questions.

1. Are the Israelis free from the sins of war and terror?
2. Are the Palestinians free from the sins of war and terror?
3. Is there a clear provenance of the lands to Israel? God said so. But the Jewish God is not recognized by Muslims!
4. Is there a clear provenance of the lands to the Palestinians?
5. Is the two-state solution workable?
6. Is permanent peace possible in the ME?
7. Should the US join the fight on the Israeli side?
8. Should the US join the fight on the Palestinian side?

My answer is a big resounding NO to all of these questions!
Then I had to ask myself, why do I appear to prefer to support the Israelis? I have been influenced by favorable Israeli stories for my entire life, and by unfavorable stories about the Palestinians. I know many Jews. I know no Palestinians.
Do I have to pick a side? My country has picked the Israelis very strongly. But, do I condone mass k*****gs that seem to be the Israeli objective in Gaza? Do I condone the use of US furnished weaponry by the Israelis to wipe out Hamas? An Israeli-fostered final solution!

There is yet another factor, and that is Islam and the millions of Muslims in and around Gaza. The Islamic clerics have been fostering a holy war against Israel for centuries, and have made their intentions very clear even today that they want to drive the Israelis into the sea.

With the identification of Islam as a prime enemy of Israel, we come to the center of the problem, and that is Iran. They are behind the war. They are led by evil men in the hierarchy of Islamic clerics. They have financed Hamas and Hizballah to the North, equipped them and trained them to fight the jihad war against Israel.

Any solution to the war that does not cordon off and stop Iran from pushing their minions into war will fail, and fail badly! To make things more spicy, Iran now possesses, or soon will possess, nuclear weaponry and the means to deliver them., or to give the bombs to radicals elsewhere for them to torch off the US and Israel. This must be stopped!

The conclusion I reach is a war now to free Iran from the Mullahs, to destroy their nuclear program, have their terror networks rolled up, their proxy armies neutralized, and to ensure they are set back decades in their technology base. It would not surprise me if the Israelis attacked Iran's nuclear facilities in the near-term, and with US assistance!

At the same time, the war must address the neutralization of Hamas and Hizballah militants. Not the massacre of civilians, but the destruction of their military capability. We are too late to stop all of the massacres in Gaza, now, unfortunately.
In the end, I find for Israel on religious, social, political, and military grounds, against militant Islam, Iran, and Iran's proxies Hamas and Hizballah. I find for avoidance of civilian casualties as far as possible. I do not find for admitting tons of Palestinian Muslim refugees into America.
Am I surprised? No! Do I champion one over the oth... (show quote)


Superb post...
Good to hear your well reasoned opinion
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Oct 14, 2023 20:43:32   #
dtucker300 wrote:
Israel is constantly accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing. If that were the case why would they hit the Planned Parenthood Clinic which performs their a******ns? Funny how the Gaza population has increased in spite of Israel's genocide directed toward the Palestinians.

Israeli airstrike takes out Planned Parenthood's only clinic in Gaza
A******n giant used the disaster to put out plea for donations
By The Western Journal
Published October 13, 2023 at 8:40pm

Within hours of Hamas’ attack Saturday, Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus took to social media to explain the events that had just occurred, Israel’s anticipated response and how he fully expected the story to be t***sposed fairly quickly, reflecting Israel as the bad guys. I couldn’t imagine the final part of that statement being true.

Conricus seemed sure of it, however, outlining a familiar game plan where Israel would “account for all civilians and soldiers, close the border and prevent future attacks, and finally, strike Hamas' military targets,” according to Townhall.

The aggressive nature of these return strikes on Hamas’ military targets is “usually the stage when the world starts to count Palestinian deaths and lecture us about humanity and the use of force,” he said.

Live briefing from Tel Aviv—with an IDF Spokesperson LTC (Res.) Jonathan Conricus

— Israel Defense Forces (@IDF) October 7, 2023

Conricus would then go on to remind everyone of how the exchange began. “It started with the butchering and the cold-blooded execution of Israeli civilians by Hamas — unprovoked.” More than 1,300 Israelis have died since the Hamas assault began, according to the Wall Street Journal. At least 27 Americans have also died.

Israel’s response was swift, organized and unapologetic. They came in hot, but not without warning to the innocent to leave Gaza or risk death.

According to Daily Caller, “The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) on Friday warned Gaza residents to evacuate and move southwards ahead of a potential ground invasion of Gaza designed to defeat Hamas. The terrorist group regularly uses Gazan civilians as human shields and its infrastructure is embedded within civilian neighborhoods, according to the IDF.”

This was in stark contrast to Hamas, which demanded Palestinian inhabitants remain. Israel has since cut water, power, food, fuel and medical supplies to the area. They’ve also dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza.

The number of bombs dropped against Hamas in just one week is shockingly close to that which the United States dropped on Afghanistan in any given year. It resulted in more than 1,500 Palestinian bodies added to the death toll.

Hamas bears responsibility for every one of them, whether or not they accept this to be true. They butchered Israeli babies, slaughtered countless Israeli citizens and infiltrated a music festival, where they raped, decapitated and d**gged off attendees. Hostages continue to be held, according to Daily Caller.

In the midst of all that, the International Planned Parenthood Federation website complained that its building had been destroyed. The organization claimed the loss would result in 37,000 pregnant women being forced to give birth with no electricity or medical supplies. Hamas owns the horrible situation these women and babies have been placed in, too.

However, Conricus’ words have proven to be accurate, as Ammal Awadallah, Executive Director of the Palestinian Family Planning and Protection Association (PFPPA) designated the culprit of these unfortunate circumstances to be Israel.

According to Awadallah’s statement, “On 8 October, PFPPA’s only center in Gaza was destroyed following an Israeli airstrike to an adjacent building, completely cutting off their ability to offer healthcare to women who have already been systematically denied sexual and reproductive healthcare and rights by the Israeli occupation.” He used the disaster to put out a plea for donations.

Planned Parenthood’s first post since Hamas terrorists attacked Israel is to release a video attacking Israel after airstrike hits their a******n center in Hamas territory then asking for donations

Pure evil.
pic.twitter.com/EIk0aevsgQ

— Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) October 13, 2023


The newsletter distinguishes that most of the Palestinian victims have been women and children up to this point. They worry that that number will increase by 37,000 more.

Maybe the PFPPA should press Hamas for a solution. The fact of the matter is, Israel is known to fight force with counterforce times ten. And Gaza is now living that reality, thanks to Hamas.

"I can assure you the IDF will be very measured in its response and that we, unlike our enemies, hold human life dear, but I can also assure you today is a different day and the response Israel will deliver Hamas will be unlike anything we have done in the past,” Conricus vowed. “We will make Hamas pay a price they have never paid before, hopefully until their destruction,” he continued, according to Townhall.

The fire and fury in Israel’s response is warranted. It’s also predictable. No one is naive to the wrath of Israel if provoked. Nor the preparedness and capabilities, for that matter. They will just pound away until they leave nothing but dust.

They strike with a vengeance. They have more than 300,000 in their reserve forces alone, a large defense budget, a very sk**led air force and cutting-edge aircraft. To top it off, they have the advantage of an Iron Dome shield to defend against incoming missiles.

Compare this to Hamas, made up of an estimated 30,000 men who understand the lay of the land, but whose budget is thin. That said, it is their friendships and supporters that pose the largest of issues. This is where the real threat lies to both Israel and the rest of us.

It remains to be seen where this all goes. Will this be another violent and tragic moment in time or the beginning of something big, say a third world war? I have my opinions, but ultimately, we shall see. In the meantime, Israel is behaving as Israel does. What they have, they will protect ... small as it might be. Then they will rise to face the blame for a war they never began.
Israel is constantly accused of genocide and ethni... (show quote)


Exactly...
Hard to claim genocide when the population is increasing...
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Oct 14, 2023 20:42:35   #
Weasel wrote:
Now Just Waiting For Biden To Take The Stage For His Telepromter Reading to The U.S. Citizens.

https://youtu.be/1ZMAOE2nfdE?si=ht_mWX5K6EPaTAlW


About time...
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Oct 14, 2023 10:02:30   #
4430 wrote:
When Hitler failed to achieve his goals, the Arab world stepped up and have been calling for the total extermination of Jews every single day since Allied forces destroyed the Ottoman Empire in WWI, Hitler in WWII, and they and the UN established a supposed safe haven for them in 1948.

Today there are only 16 million Jews left in the world which is 0.2% of the entire global population so congrats to all the vile morons calling them evil “global aggressors” and demanding their destruction because they are now a demographic whisker away from becoming EXTINCT!!!

Number of Muslims in the world: 1 billion
Number of Jews in the world: 16 million
The Arab world in square miles: 3 million
Israel in square miles: 8,630

Here’s a wild idea: maybe if Palestinians stopped electing demon-possessed psychopaths vowing to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and slaughter every Jew they wouldn’t be so oppressed.

If they can’t manage to do that, then maybe they should join the millions of people who pack up their belonging and start fresh somewhere else like the Jews have done every single day since Rome razed Jerusalem in 70 CE!

The Arab world has 3 million square miles. Pick a few and plant a f**g. Problem solved.
When Hitler failed to achieve his goals, the Arab ... (show quote)


With so few Jews, why don't they settle somewhere less dangerous???

The US has plenty of land, and is very welcoming of them...

Seems odd that they're insisting on that one little area...
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Oct 14, 2023 09:59:33   #
padremike wrote:
Didn't I hear that pictures are posted on Bibi's X account or some account of his? Do I personally believe that these demonic scum, who use their own children as human shields and blame Israel when they are k**led, would savage and behead Jewish babies? Of course. More than half of Americans believe it's a good, necessary and compassionate policy to allow babies to be pulled apart in the womb and removed in pieces. Betcha they don't like this moral equivalency test. Actually, Hamas' atrocities pale in comparison don't you think?
Didn't I hear that pictures are posted on Bibi's X... (show quote)


I haven't heard that...
I'll search for them...

Considering the number of children k**led by both sides, I'm not overly impressed with either of them...


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Oct 14, 2023 09:56:52   #
Liberty Tree wrote:
There is a difference between want to and have to, but I do not expect you to get it.


I agree...
Sad that you can't spot it..
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Oct 14, 2023 08:21:42   #
son of witless wrote:
Thank you for the honest answer. I suppose if Israel ever decides to commit suicide they could follow your most excellent plan.


They're doing it well enough on their own...
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Oct 14, 2023 08:21:22   #
TruePatriot49 wrote:
Hamas and Arabs in general don't want Palestine to be a country. Their goal is to k**l every jew in the world. This is a civil war as both sides claim Abraham as their father.


Abraham is the father of both sides....
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Oct 14, 2023 07:47:20   #
RandyBrian wrote:
I, too, am grateful for your friendship.
And I see your points, but DO disagree with them, to one extent or another.
IMHO a Palestine nation would not peacefully exist next to Israel, and I thing the Israeli's agree, and that is why the two state 'solution' is a really REALLY bad idea for them. I think it would make matters worse. But there may be ways to make it workable .....ideas for another post.
And I DO think that the people of Gaza would GREATLY benefit from being a fully occupied vassal territory under Israel's thumb.....for a while. It is not a permanent solution, but it would make the 16 year blockade unnecessary, and allow the strip time to heal, repair, and for those who choose to do so, to immigrate elsewhere.
I, too, am grateful for your friendship. br And I ... (show quote)


I think they would benefit from being given Israeli citizenship and rights...
Occupation rarely works in favor of the occupied..

Israel's current practices make attacks like this inevitable...
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Oct 14, 2023 07:45:57   #
son of witless wrote:
What exactly is your recommendation for Israeli action ?


My recommendation would be to withdraw from the occupied territories, recognize Palestine as a nation, and attempt to make peace...

If attacked after that, Israel should crush Palestine and absorb it into Israel... Giving the civilian population all the rights of Israeli citizens...
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Oct 14, 2023 07:17:01   #
RandyBrian wrote:
CD, you know you have always been one of my favorite posters on OPP, and will continue to be regardless of this topic. But I disagree with what you seem to be saying.
If this was the first, or even second time, Hamas had launched an attack while hiding behind the women and children of Gaza, then I would tend to agree with you.
But 'restrained' attempts have been tried many times in the past, and it just keeps getting worse.
The Israelis are violating smart battle tactics, and increasing the dangers to their soldiers, by giving warnings of WHO and WHERE they are going to attack well in advance, and telling the citizens to get out of that area. Doing such endangers their troops, and gives Hamas time to plan and flee, but they are doing so to minimize civilian casualties. So YES that is indeed restrained....VERY restrained in a moral and sacrificial way.
I think they are doing the best they can in a horrible and very dangerous situation. In the long run, IMHO, it will improve things for the people living in Gaza.
CD, you know you have always been one of my favori... (show quote)


I am grateful that we can disagree in a gentlemanly manner...
I agree with the majority of what you've stated..
Where I differ us in that I don't think the current Israeli government is interested in peace...
They wouldn't be settling the occupied territory of they were...
Nor would they be opposing Palestine as a sovereign state...
As such, I think they're feeling pretty good that they now have a reason to go in and occupy Gaza...
I don't see how being occupied will improve anything for the people of Gaza..
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Oct 14, 2023 06:59:49   #
keepuphope wrote:
I understand that, I was referring to if bombing went all across Gaza none of the other countries want to let them in. Jordan,and surrounding counties.


Of course not...
They have no interest in displaced refugees...
Few nations do..
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Oct 14, 2023 05:35:57   #
fullspinzoo wrote:
Permafrost is a perfect example. Has always been a big supporter of Omar. In fact, we got "into it" a little on PM, and he said Omar has great support up in Minnesota and she'll be there forever. If they want a supporter of babies being beheaded, so be it. But I don't think there are that many morons living in Minn. BTW, he'll spin the Hell out of this last atrocity. It's been discovered that Biden has been giving huge sums of money to "both sides", he's been playing Santa Claus a little early this year.
Permafrost is a perfect example. Has always been ... (show quote)


Isn't that par for course?
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Oct 14, 2023 04:52:28   #
Blade_Runner wrote:
The REAL Reason Hamas attacked Israel: Glenn Beck, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin REACT


Good old Ben...
Nothing like a completely subjective opinion
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Oct 14, 2023 04:02:06   #
dtucker300 wrote:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/12/israel-hamas-gaza-war-modi-response-shift/#cookie_message_anchor

Modi’s Comments on Israel-Gaza War Signal Shift
Forthrightly expressing solidarity with Israel, India steps away from a long-held approach toward the Palestinians.
By Sumit Ganguly, a columnist at Foreign Policy and visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, and Nicolas Blarel, an associate professor at Leiden University.

OCTOBER 12, 2023, 5:27 PM
In 1947, when the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution that recommended establishing the state of Israel alongside a Palestinian state, a newly independent India v**ed against. Then-Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi, and other Indian nationalists were sympathetic to the Jewish cause, but they opposed the partition of what was the British mandate for Palestine and advocated for a federal arrangement with guarantees for minority religious rights for Jews. In their view, the creation of a Jewish state would disenfranchise the Arab inhabitants of the region.

Pragmatic considerations also shaped Indian officials’ position. With a substantial Muslim population in its own borders, India could not afford to ignore their sentiments. An overture toward Israel could have adverse effects on the fragile legitimacy of the new state, particularly stirring turmoil among Indian Muslims, who had just experienced the trauma of the Partition of India. At the time, India also wanted to present itself as a standard-bearer against colonialism and to demonstrate its solidarity with newly decolonized Arab states, which were also being courted by Pakistan.

India formally recognized the state of Israel in 1950, and it allowed the country to open a consulate in Mumbai in 1953. For much of the Cold War, Indo-Israeli contacts were limited; New Delhi still wanted to avoid alienating the Arab world and sought to appease the Muslim population at home. It wasn’t until 1992 that India granted full diplomatic recognition to Israel, including the opening of the Israeli Embassy in New Delhi. With the Cold War over and the impending Oslo Accords—which sought rapprochement between Israel and the Palestinians—India chose to end its policy of keeping Israel at a safe distance.

At the same time, India maintained strong support for Palestine. In 1974, India was the first non-Arab country to recognize the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people,” and the next year, a PLO office was set up in New Delhi. India was again the first non-Arab country to recognize the state of Palestine when it was proclaimed in 1988. In multilateral v**es after India and Israel normalized ties, India consistently sided with the Palestinian position, including support for Palestine’s application for complete United Nations membership.

After Hamas launched a multipronged attack against Israel from Gaza over the weekend, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, quite appropriately, sharply upbraided Hamas’s horrific actions. However, he has so far expressed no concern about the dire plight of the Palestinians trapped in Gaza. “We stand in solidarity with Israel at this difficult hour,” he posted. “Our thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims and their families.” After speaking with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Modi added, “India strongly and unequivocally condemns terrorism in all its forms and manifestations.” Neither statement nodded at people in Gaza.


Five days after the Hamas attacks, India’s Ministry of External Affairs released its first official statement on the war. There is a “universal obligation to observe international humanitarian law,” and there is also a global responsibility to fight terrorism, spokesperson Arindam Bagchi said in response to questions at a weekly briefing. He also reiterated India’s position on the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict, calling for “direct negotiations” toward a “sovereign, independent, and viable state of Palestine living within secure and recognized borders, side by side, at peace with Israel.”

Modi’s initial reaction follows a series of public Indian overtures toward Israel since he and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) came to power in 2014, including Modi’s unprecedented visit to Tel Aviv in July 2017. Breaking with the protocol established through most previous ministerial visits by world leaders to Israel, Modi did not stop in Ramallah, the de facto capital of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Netanyahu reciprocated the visit in January 2018. The very public increase in ties under Modi stood in contrast with the more discreet approach that governments under the Indian National Congress party adopted toward Israel. Even previous BJP governments had not so boldly embraced Israel when in office between 1998 and 2004.

There is no question that Modi’s government has been more public in its engagement with Israel than any previous governments in New Delhi. However, for years it also regularly asserted its support for the Palestinian Authority. Before Modi’s historic visit to Israel in 2017, the Indian leader invited Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to New Delhi—probably with an eye toward warding off domestic criticism. During this visit, India reiterated its traditional position, supporting a two-state solution and calling for “a sovereign, independent, united, and viable Palestine, coexisting peacefully with Israel.”

India didn’t abandon its support for the Palestinian cause at the United Nations, either. In December 2017, just before Netanyahu visited New Delhi, India supported a U.N. General Assembly v**e against then-U.S. President Donald Trump’s unilateral declaration of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. A year later, India backed a nonbinding U.N. resolution that Ireland had introduced, calling for a “comprehensive, just, and lasting peace in the Middle East” and condemning Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories. Under Modi, India also increased its contributions to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East.

In May 2021—after weeks of demonstrations and heightened tensions among protesters, Israeli settlers, and Israeli police—violence broke out at the compound of Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups launched hundreds of rockets into Israeli territory, and Israel responded with airstrikes in Gaza, k*****g at least 260 Palestinians. India’s reaction to the crisis was nuanced: It condemned both Hamas and Israel for the escalation of violence. The response reflected India’s continued effort to deepen ties with Israel without abandoning the Palestinian cause—an adroit diplomatic strategy that New Delhi has been able to pursue until the current Israel-Hamas war.

So what explains this seemingly dramatic shift in India’s stance toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? A few factors appear to have shaped its calculations. First, India faces a national e******n next year. For all practical purposes, the BJP has written off the Muslim v**e, leaving it a free hand to take an unequivocal stance on the issue that does not address the concerns of India’s Muslim population. Furthermore, although some Indian Muslims have expressed their sympathy to the Palestinian cause in the wake of the Israel-Hamas war, they bear no particular fondness for Hamas.

Will India Draw Closer to Israel?
New Delhi’s long-standing balancing act between Israel and the Palestinians faces its toughest test yet.

Second, India has long fended off terrorist attacks from Islamist militants operating from Pakistani soil. Adopting an unyielding posture toward the Hamas attacks not only plays well with its own domestic constituency but also sends a tacit message to Islamabad: namely, that New Delhi will take a tougher approach to terrorism. Modi has previously compared India’s surgical strikes on militant bases in Pakistan-administered Kashmir to Israel’s covert operations against militants in foreign territory, suggesting that Israel’s military prowess is something worth emulating.

It is also possible that India has taken note that a number of key Arab states, from Egypt to Saudi Arabia, have not offered full-throated support for Hamas. At best, they have called for avoiding further escalation of hostilities while issuing minor denunciations of Israeli actions. Unlike during previous crises, various Arab states had normalized or were in the process of normalizing ties with Israel when Hamas attacked. This cautious reaction from some Arab countries gives New Delhi some diplomatic leeway, especially when it comes to its growing trade and strategic relations with the Gulf Cooperation Council states.

Finally, India’s clear-cut condemnation of Hamas could be a signal to the United States about its willingness to support a critical U.S. ally. This public position may assuage the Biden administration’s misgivings about India’s wobbly stance on the Russian war in Ukraine. Without harshly criticizing New Delhi, the Biden administration has nevertheless expressed its disappointment with India’s failure to condemn Moscow’s invasion.

Modi’s tilt toward Israel in this crisis is another indicator of the increasing assertiveness of India’s foreign policy, especially now that New Delhi perceives a shifting political and economic landscape in the Middle East. That raises questions going forward. Having condemned Hamas this week, how will India negotiate its diplomatic ties with the Arab world? If the fighting escalates, as seems probable, will New Delhi backtrack on its stance? India is likely to take its cues from key Arab states, in line with the rest of its foreign policy during Modi’s second term. New Delhi’s sole guiding principle now appears to be ruthless pragmatism—as shown by its approach toward Russia in the wake of its invasion of Ukraine.

Given the scope of the Indo-Israeli relationship—which now encompasses growing trade, security, and defense cooperation, as well as joint infrastructure projects—and Modi’s personal affinity for Netanyahu, it is highly unlikely that India will adopt a more nuanced position on the Israel-Gaza war without pressure from Arab states with which it shares important ties. The days of India decrying terrorism while still championing the Palestinian cause seem to have passed. In many ways, this shift is the logical culmination of a diplomatic process begun under Modi. Short of a new government taking the helm in New Delhi, it’s unlikely to turn back now.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/12/israel-hamas-... (show quote)


Modi does right by his people..
As he should
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