Artemis, Lastly I want to bring up the origins of the Early Christian Churches and the splitting or the begging of the Great Schism from the five Patriarchal Sees of the early Church foundlings rites e.g., Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. After the trial, scourging, crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ. The accession and Pentecost and the fledgling church to spread the message of Jesus Christ by the Apostles.

Later, we see the Syriac-speaking Christians adopted the Pes**tta Bible and added a Syriac version of the New Testament, although the far-Eastern Christian churches seemed not to include several New Testament letters or the book of Revelation.

Saint Irenaeus, 2nd century, AD 202, urged Christians to maintain all four (separate) canonical Gospels. The tradition of four separate Gospels continues in almost all Christian churches to this day. As early (second century) Christian leader and theologian whose writings attacked heresies like gnosticism which is the denial of the Holy Trinity and that Jesus Christ, "was not," Man and God.


The beginnings several of Christianity e.g, Roman Catholicism, and from Eastern European Orthodox church and the Middle East Coptic Churches, adherents trace their tradition back to the earliest Christian communities. Lowercase "orthodox," which means, "conforming" with the dominant, sanctioned ideas or belief system from the earliest Christian communities.

Here are the major divisions dominant, sanctioned ideas or belief system from the earliest Christian communities. https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

The largest Christian group; Western Rites and Churches: Immediately subject to the Bishop of Rome, the Supreme Pontiff, who exercises his authority over the liturgy through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The word meaning (Catholic - Universal)

a. Roman/Latin Family of Liturgical Rites include:
The Church of Rome is the Primatial See of the world and one of the five Patriarchal Sees of the early Church (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem).

Founded by St. Peter in 42 AD it was consecrated by the blood of Saint. Peter and Paul during the persecution of Nero (63–67 AD). It has maintained a continual existence since then and is the source of a family of Rites in the West.

Considerable scholarship suggests a close affinity of the Roman Rite proper with the Jewish prayers of the synagogue. While the origin of the current Rite, even in the reform of Vatican II, can be traced directly only to the 4th century, these connections point to an ancient apostolic tradition brought to that city that was decidedly Jewish in origin.

After the Council of Trent, The nineteenth ecumenical council opened at Trent on 13 December, 1545, and closed there on 4 December, 1563.

The Council of Trent was the most important movement of the Catholic Counter-Reformation, the Catholic Church’s first significant reply to the growing Protestants Reformation and also to make the set of beliefs in Catholicism even clearer.
a. Protestants endorse justification by faith alone (sola fide) apart from anything (including good works).
b. Protestant Reformers rejected the Apocrypha as part of the biblical canon. (The term Apocrypha (hidden) is a collection of ancient Jewish writings and is the title given to these books, which were written between 300 and 30 B.C. Many doctrines unique to Catholicism, such as the teachings of purgatory, prayers for the dead, and salvation by works, are found in these books.
c. Defined t***substantiation as “that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood - the species only of the bread and wine remaining - which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls T***substantiation.”
d. The Council affirmed two sources of special revelation: Holy Scripture (e.g., all the books included in the Latin Vulgate version) and traditions of the church (including the “unwritten oral traditions”).
e. Council approved a plan to correct the errors to the Julian calendar that would allow for a more consistent and accurate scheduling of the feast of Easter.


Roman Rite: The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general. • Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. • Extraordinary Latin Rite Form of the Roman Rite. • Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. • Anglican Use. Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected. • Mozarabic Spain and Portugal Rite • Ambrosian Rite, • Bragan Portugal Rite,
• Dominican Rite, • Carmelite Rite, • Carthusian Rite,

b. Alexandrian Family of Liturgical Rites: Egyptian Coptic and Ethiopian/Abyssinian.

c. Byzantine Family of Liturgical Rites:
The Church of Constantinople became the political and religious center of the eastern Roman Empire after the Emperor Constantine built a new capital there (324–330) on the site of the ancient town of Byzantium.

Constantinople developed its own liturgical rite from the Liturgy of St. James, in one form as modified by St. Basil, and in a more commonly used form, as modified by St. John Chrysostom. After 1054 A.D., and the "Great Schism,"

The Byzantine churches are typically divided into Churches along nation lines. Those that have returned to communion with the Holy See are represented among the Eastern Churches and Rites of the Catholic Church.

1. Armenian Church.
2. Byzantine churches: Most Catholics of Byzantine Rite Churches resumed communion with Rome. • Belarussian/Byelorussian • Bulgarian • Czech • Krizevci Croatian • Greek • Hungarian • Italo–Albanian • Melkite • Romanian• Russian Orthodox, • Ruthenian Hungary and Croatia • Slovak • Ukrainian.


c. Antiochian family of Liturgical Rites: The Church of Antioch in Syria (the ancient Roman Province of Syria) is considered an apostolic See by virtue of having been founded by St. Peter. It was one of the ancient centers of the Church, as the New Testament attests, and is the source of a family of similar Rites using the ancient Syriac language. Its Liturgy is attributed to St. James and the Church of Jerusalem.

1. West Syriac family of Liturgical Rites: • Maronite – Never separated from Rome. Maronite Patriarch of Antioch. The liturgical language is Aramaic.
• Syriac – Syriac Antioch are found in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt,
• Malankarese – Catholics from the South of India evangelized by St. Thomas, uses the West Syriac liturgy.

2. East Syriac
• Chaldean – Babylonian Rite.
• Syro–Malabarese Rite, found in the state of Kerela, in SW India.




Official lists of books in or out of the canon only began to appear in the fourth century C.E., as a result of The Council of Nicaea - 325 AD and particularly about theological disputes, usually about the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity and the formation of the Nicene Creed as to the definition and beliefs of Christianity.

However, Christian the biblical canons lists remained constant through the seventh century, during this time, books such as the Shepherd of Hermas or the forged Epistle to the Laodiceans could be found in certain Christian Bibles.

Overall, by the end of the fourth century c.e. there was general agreement about which books should have scriptural status e.g., as in the Roman Catholic bible. Although early Christians wrote quite a few letters and books, only a few became widely accepted.

For a work to be considered sacred or canonical in the fourth century and beyond, it seems that it had to claim apostolic authority. The work had to be written or authorized by one of the earliest Christian leaders, especially Paul and the twelve apostles.

Apostolic authority required that the books be consistent with the teachings about Jesus and the Trinity that were found in other accepted books and that were current in fourth-century Christianity.

As a result, books such as the Gospel of Peter were rejected from most Protestant Christian canon lists, and some of the writings deemed noncanonical were lost and only rediscovered in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Then there are the Jewish and Christian Apocrypha biblical text which refer to texts, which are left out of officially sanctioned versions (canon) of the Bible. The term means "things hidden away," which implies secret or esoteric literature.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/



Artemis, this should bring you up to the biblical origins from the Hebrew Torah Pentateuch, and the and the Oral Torah versions (Talmudic/Midrash Rabbinic oral tradition).

The Greek t***slation of the Septuagint Bible and of the canon of the Roman Catholic Bible at The Council of Nicaea - 325 AD. Lastly the t***slation into the Masoretic Hebrew Bible of 700 AD.

I did not know that we had an audience that only read the OPP thread post articles, without comment. Interesting ?

Hello I offer you peace and God be with you.

This part of my comment is to explain the origins of the Septuagint Greek t***slation of the Old Hebrew Testament Bible and to the religious factions and Geo-Political actions of the people in Israel/Palestine Roman occupation at the time of Jesus Christ's, ministry and teaching of Salvation to the world.
http://www.theopedia.com/Septuagint



Artemis, one has to have a starting point a Juxtaposition, placing two or more things side by side as a starting point and dialog.

Do you agree with the the origin and t***slation of the Old Testament Bible from Hebrew to Greek. Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?


The Septuagint (LXX) Septuagint means the 72 Rabi's, who wrote the t***slation and is commonly given in the West to the oldest Greek t***slation of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

But recent archeological discoveries predate the Septuagint Bible e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Jewish religious practicing Essenes.

They are a collection of Jewish texts scrolls (biblical, apocryphal, and sectarian) (the hebrew in these scrolls have no vowels) and has its origins from 700 B.C.E around 200 B.C.E., to the time of Christ and were preserved, above the Dead Sea and were re-discovered in the 20th century which describes the religious and political climate of the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes.

However, there were several different versions of many biblical books in the Second Temple period. In comparison several of these versions differed only slightly from each other, but some versions were very different. After the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Romans in 70 C.E. the Jewish teachings and original Jerusalem many Torah's were destroyed.

The earliest t***slation of the Torah Hebrew Bible to the Old Greek (OG), defines the religion and culture of Jews. It emerged as the descendant of ancient Israelite religion, and is characterized by monotheism and an adherence to the laws present in the written Torah (the old testament Bible) and the Oral Torah (Talmudic/Rabbinic oral tradition).

This is the reason for oral traditions of the "Bardi" which was the easiest method used by many cultures to record history and traditions, word for word, by rote memory.

Incredible don't you agree about the "Bardi" and oral traditions. Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?




The Hebrew Torah t***slation made in Alexandria, Egypt, was for the use of the Greek-speaking Jewish community there. At first, just the Torah was t***slated, in the third century B.C.E., and the rest of the biblical books were t***slated later. The whole Hebrew Bible was likely t***slated into ancient Greek by the middle of the second century B.C.E.

The Masoretic Hebrew texts were finally completed 500 and 700 C.E.

The authoritative Hebrew text of the Hebrew Bible, containing both the consonants and the vowels (unlike the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have no vowels).

The earliest existing copies of the Masoretic Text date to the 10th century C.E., is the Hebrew text of the Scriptures approved for general use in Judaism. It is also widely used in t***slations of the Old Testament of Christian Bibles.

These t***slations are important source's for biblical studies (Old and New Testament), to make a distinctive contribution to the history of biblical interpretation, and to be of considerable interest for the understanding of the early development of both Judaism and Christianity. http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/bible-basics/what-are-noncanonical-writings.aspx

Christianity further developed their faith by oral traditions and the standardized collection of practices by Jesus Christ and the Apostles e.g., the four Gospels and the letters and books found in the New Testament Bible.

Remember many of these Christians were religious practicing Jew's, with the same Jewish ceremonies, readings, rituals, songs, and so forth—related to worship in a religious tradition and the Old testament scrolls.

The Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church and the Coptic Church is very symbolic to the ritualistic Jewish, roots; ceremonies, readings, rituals, songs, and so forth. Except for Animal sacrifice for sin.

Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the last sacrifice, the new Covenant. as to fulfill the Gospels of the new Testament and fulfillment of the Old Testament prophetic prophesy, and gives mankind and womankind a message of Hope and our Salvation of our spirit and our soul.


You can't take out the Jewishness origins out of Christianity.



What were the differences of the a. Scribes (politicians) b. Pharisees, c. Sadducees, d. Essenes's, e. Jewish Zealots and the f. Samaritans of northern Israel.

a. Scribes (politicians) Both Jewish religious and Roman Political. Basically a modern day turncoat tax collector bureaucrat, making a buck or shekel.


b. Pharisees, the ‘separated ones’ because of their strict avoidance of gentiles, unclean persons, sinners and Jews less observant of the law, about 150 BC. They emerged as a lay Jewish movement. Their aim was to extend the religion practised in the temple to the everyday life of the people, upper income and middle class, but were not close to the poor.

Jesus discourse with the Pharisees was about their over-legalistic attitude to the essential aspects of the Jewish religion, an emphasis on detailed observances. Being too ‘religious’ lacking in compassion when it comes to insisting on religious observances. They also believed in a after life of the soul immortal .


c. Sadducees, This group was mainly a priestly and aristocratic movement among the Jews. Their name is derived from the priest, Sadok, whom Solomon appointed to take charge of the ark of the covenant on his accession to power in Jerusalem (1 Kgs. 2:35) and legitimate line of priests for the restored temple (Ezekiel 40:46).

They emerged as a group of priests and wealthy lay people about 130 BC. They believed that the Jewish law was to be interpreted exactly as it had been written without any of the explanatory or additional traditions like those put forward by the Pharisees and they rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees. Also, they opposed the Pharisees and doctrine. They believed that the soul perished with the body (in Mk.12, Jesus confronts them over this), while the Pharisees believed that the soul was immortal.

The Pharisees were considered to be more virtuous in the eyes of the people. While the Sadducees often owned large estates and enjoyed the confidence of the wealthy. They collaborated with the Romans and were dominant in the trial of Jesus since they saw his religion as an attack on temple religion, which they controlled. The poor did not follow the Sadducees.


d. Essenes, mean "holy ones," are not mentioned in the New Testament. A community living at Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea in protest against the abuses of the Sadducees high priests of Jerusalem they retired from public life (probably about 150 B.C.) and rejected the temple of Jerusalem and its priesthood and formed a very structured community, a modern day Israel Kibbutz.

They stressed monogamous marriage, some lived a celibate life. They also studied scripture and shared their goods in common. They believed in a final struggle between good and evil that would introduce the age of the Messiah. They alone would share in that great triumph.


e. Zealots, played an important part in the religious and political life of Palestine in the first century AD. They promoted armed revolution against the Romans, they are scarcely mentioned in the Gospels (only Lk. 6:15). Zealots were violent revolutionaries and related to the poor in a hopeless economic state who were ready to take part in violence. The movement and r*******n were supported poor people and by the youth, whereas the Pharisees, Sadducees upper classes sought to maintain peace with Rome.

National liberation and social justice movements reached its climax in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD and the Jewish Diaspora.

Because they were zealous, about God’s law but also about social justice and national liberation, which they believed was to be achieved by armed revolution.

Jesus defended the poor and condemned violent oppression, but we never hear him proclaim armed revolution anywhere in the Gospels.


f. Samaritans, hatred went back to separation of the northern and southern Jewish kingdoms. they lacked unity between the tribes of Jacoband intermarried with new settlers from Mesopotamia and Syria which was forbidden by Moses.

Samaritans worship of Yahweh was mixed with the worship of strange gods and religious practices in essence they became renegades and were despised by Jews. When the Samaritans wanted to rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem, their assistance was rejected.

(Nehemiah 13:28-29) that a grandson of the high priest, Eliashib, had married a daughter of Sanballat, the governor of the province of Samaria.

For defiling the priesthood by marrying a non-Jewish woman, Nehemiah drove Eliashib from Jerusalem. According to the historian Josephus, Sanballat then had a temple built on Mount Garizim apparently this is when the full break between Jews and Samaritans took place.

Though the Samaritans were condemned by the Jews, they probably had as much pure Jewish blood as the Jews who later returned from the Babylonian exile.

Samaritans later allied themselves with the Seleucids in the Maccabean wars and in 108 B.C. the Jews destroyed the Samaritan temple and ravaged the territory.

Around the time of Jesus' birth, a band of Samaritans profaned the Temple in Jerusalem by scattering the bones of dead people in the sanctuary. And is similar to the burning of Black Churches, and Jewish Synagogs we should be able to understand the anger and h**e such acts would incite.

Imagine the hatred between Samaritans and the Jews, both politics and religion were involved.

Sorry about that, But you should understand what was happening religiously and geopolitically in Palestine and with the political provinces of King Herod in that time period.




Why was Jesus Christ message was and was preached so profound to rich and the poor and was compelling against all cultures and peoples from the Romans, Samaritans the Jews, the pagans.

Why was Jesus Christ message so embraced ? Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ? In our present day modern culture, we are seeing this rejection on religion by the young and various groups. Religion and morality is in decline do you not agree ? Are their any similarities ?

Kinda sounds familiar: like Democrats and Republicans, Liberals and Conservatives and Libertarian and Non-Political and political apathy. Christian religious and Agnostics, Atheists, Spiritual, Creationism, Darwinism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhist, Hindus, Satanism and materialism.




Jesus Christ was a practicing Jew from birth with his circumcision and a Jewish Father and Mother and his last seven word that he spoke Jesus quoted from the Psalms 21.

Sadly this removal has been done after the reformation of 1517 by Martin Luther and a slow removal of Jewishness and Catholicism by the 2,800 different kinds of Protestant Christian denominations.

I was invited to go to a Protestant Christian Church service and was surprised to see their new founded Church creed, a plagiarism version from the Nicene Creed and the original, orthodoxy Christian belief written 1680 years ago .. I said nothing but shook my head.

Their have always been division in religion just as in politics countries, social and societies. Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?

Artemis, Please do me a favor, when you answer a question, or ask a question would you kindly, put a letter or number symbol down as I have done. I know that this was a long response to both of your questions, and I don't want this to get confusing.

My communication to you Artemis, is not to instruct you, but is to provide important information and require factual responses to your questions.

I apologize for the length of my responses, but I do feel that this wordy reply is necessary because of the complexity of the nature of religion, philosophy and the dual nature of Judaism and Christianity.

And I await your response's, to understand your clarification to your original question. Would you rather me to send and private message and dialogue instead of the thread forum ?



b. Let me ask you as I have asked here before, why do you believe Christ had never created a book of his own thought and teachings? I'm asking this question back to you ? To inquire about your doubts ?

2. Artemis, can you answer this question, was "Jeschua" of Nazareth, (the Hebrew meaning) "The Savior," (the Greek, meaning) "The Christ," meaning "The Messiah," in the Old Testament Biblical prophesy's, was Fulfilled ? By Jesus Christ ?

Artemis, ? yes or no ? maybe ? or I don't know ? Artemis this is what is, the meaning of religious Faith.

3. Then let me put to your question in another way. In the Jewish Talmud Midrash and Kabbalah. How did God present himself to mankind and communicate to mankind and womenkind in the Old Testament through prophetic prophesy ?

Then we can move forward to Jesus Christ message and communication to mankind and womenkind e.g., A firm foundation to build dialogue upon.


God's message in the Old Testament: It was a voice, a inner thoughts or perception, sometimes through nature, the wind, a burning bush, a pillar of fire or cloud.

How did Adam and Eve communicate with God ? with Enoch, we are told that he walked with God, how about with Noah, Methuselah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob-Israel and Joseph, all records said that God communicated directly and or sent a messengers, Angels and through human interactions as in Joseph, Jacob's son.

Do you see my point, how does God communicates ? But never in person ?

God also speaks to Moses, to Arron and the 72 elders in the deserts of the Sina and Arabia. To "Josiah-Josue-Jeschua," and to the the Judges of Israel, the kings, Saul, David, Solomon ect.

God spoke and communicated to these prophets; Samuel, Elias, Elisus, Jeremiah, Daniel, through Isaiah, Ezechiel and all the other minor prophets either through direct communication or through messengers Angels and or nature and . ? Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?



Then approximately after the birth of John the Baptist,15 to 3 B.C.E, the last biblical prophet recorded in the bible.

How did God communicate with John the Baptist ? John the Baptist message was to "Repent of your sin's, the Day of the Lord is near," and his recorded message with Jesus Christ's baptism, in the Gospels of the new Testament and fulfillment of the Old Testament prophetic prophesy.



We have just span and covered 5,000 years Artemis. Amazing don't you agree ? Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?



Can you even grasp or comprehend and totally understand all that t***spired and happened in 5000 years and how this directly relates and lead's us to the narrative of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. A man, and also God ?

{Jeschua" of Nazareth,} "The Savior," "The Christ," "The Messiah," as was recorded by the "Bardi," oral traditions, and written, Old Testament Biblical prophetic prophecy's.

Was the Biblical prophecy, Fulfilled by Jesus Christ ? Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?


Did God send his only Son to earth to "Fulfill" his communion and religious message with his children, mankind and womenkind ? And set up his tenants of religious faiths in communicating to mankind ?


Again Quite honestly Artemis, I don't believe that I'm that presumptuous, that I could speak for Jesus Christ, God on this matter. What ever way Christ message was delivered, who am I to judge.


b. So I ask you again Artemis, why do you think that Jesus Christ never created a book of his thoughts and teaching ? Do you think his massage got through after 2000 years ?

What did Jesus Christ accomplish in these 2,000 years ? Jesus Christ message t***sformed the whole world, by his teaching and instructions to his Apostles and to the ends of the earth.

I say this is incredible Artemis.

Jesus Christ espoused freedom, liberty God's love, the true gift of the spirit of man's potential. Only the Old and New Testament truly gives mankind and womankind a message of Hope and our Salvation of our spirit and our soul.


It is mankind and womenkind choice of freewill to accept or reject the nature of God and his message as he communicates to us. Most of all Jesus Christ said to all of us, "Love one another as I have loved you. Amen.


Yes or No ? or maybe ? or I don't know ?

Doc110 wrote:
b. Quite honestly Artemis, I don't believe that I'm that presumptuous, that I could speak for Jesus Christ on this matter.

As to the reason why Jesus did-not record or write anything down. The only thing I can say was that he was focused on salvation and his teaching ministry.


Are you having second thoughts about your question ? I've noticed from past comment, that this is also a recurring theme of yours and has not been answered ? Am I correct ? Having any doubts about his 650 plus, biblical prophetic references: Christ's birth, life and death of the Messiah ?

Yes I have some doubts, not doubts of divinity, doubts of the "written" word and the interpretation's of each particular author. People are only human and with flaws and to their belief gets blended with the word of Jesus.

personally I enjoy conversations like this because it pushes me to research something I probably never would have. As I did after your post and found some interesting information.

Apparently I am not the only one to be skeptical of some of the authors who some being an apostle. It was interesting to find out that the over viewers - the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant churches who made the approval to what was recognized to be included in the Bible.

As with marcus's, and his belief their is no prove-able reference to the authenticity of the historical Jesus Christ. Unfortunately we have had no factual or have a intellectual discussion input from marcus, so I guess he is out of the picture for now.

Jesus did have the twelve Apostles, and I'm sure that he found many character traits and abilities for his newly founded Christian Jewish ministry. Most probably Jesus instructed his Apostles as to the course of action they to have taken during and after his death.


Tell me why did Jesus's Christian Jewish ministry succeeded and flourished with the Jew's, Samaritans, the Roman's and the pagan world ?

Why did Jesus Christ ministry succeed with-out the written words of Jesus Christ on velum or papyrus. I can't answer that question.

I believe his words of course touched the hearts of many, more than any other, he came here bearing no weapons, only to speak of love and forgiveness. Not in the way of the old testament. It was in a more peaceful way to accept your brothers. It was and is beautiful. He changed the world for the better.

Unfortunately some of us have found undesirable and harsh quotes from the bible, and this is why my beliefs have changed to a more loving spirit than what I have found in the new testament.

It is hard for me to discuss religion, I am not a religious person. I don't feel I need a church or the mantra of a group.


Yet why do some many miss this simple message.

We see in Paul of Tarsus's letters to the 7 churches in Anatolia as to His success and in Acts' of the Apostles their success with-out the writings of Jesus Christ. Or did he have copies of them ? Or references to them.

The message and teaching by the Apostles must have been profound and compelling.

Was it his Jewish understanding of the old Testament Torah, his teaching abilities, his oration abilities, or was it, Jesus Christ's abilities to perform miracles; e.g., healing of the sick, casting out demons, feeding the masses, and raising of the dead ect. ?

What was Jesus's relationship with the people and how he related to the common folk and was beloved by the masses ?

Jesus also had another side, an adversarial condemnation of the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes ?


Or was this the the Christ, the Messiah fulfilled ? In fulfillment of Biblical prophesy's ?



I'll let you make up your own mind ?



Artemis, Just look at the oral recordings of the Old Testament teaching and oral histories, do you think they had practiced be the "Bardi" of Middle-eastern oral traditions, found commonly though all cultures ?

People were not stupid or ignorant, they just didn't have computers, recording devices or pen and paper. Their brain capacity was no different from you or I. Those people had the same intellectual capabilities that you or I have.

Oral traditions of the "Bardi" was the easiest method used by many cultures to record history and traditions, even to this present day in some cultures practice this oral method, is still being practiced around earth.

I'm sure that these twelve Apostles were not stupid people or ignorant either. Judas Iscar**t had been a trained by several Jewish rabbinical schools as was Paul of Tarsus and Luke the physician.

And what was the end results of the Apostles, by these untrained unorthodox people and scholars, look what they accomplished with God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Greatest beautiful biblical book ever written and references the world has ever seen, the Gospels and letters of the New Testament.

The incredible Christian writers and their inter-weaving of biblical passages and references, prophecy of the Old and New Testament into and referenced bible. It's just incredible and divinely spirited messages from ordinary men, for all the world to read and contemplate on ?

Some Biblical references and prophecy go back over a thousand years or more.


But for practical reasons, Jesus's teaching, it would be the oral traditional methods of Oral Memory, as practiced be the "Bardi" recorded in Greek and Roman periods of ancient literature.

Bards, are a European term, from Celtic history as recorded by Julius Cesar of the French-Gaul wars, Spanish Celtic cultures, Germanic tribes and Britannia Celtic tribes, but all these culture's had a oral recorded tradition.

Look at the American Native's. But you knew that right ?

An interesting article on Oral traditions. bard.ansteorra.org/bardcraft/whatisabard.doc



The other reason would be to record on papyrus or animal vellum, it would have been cost prohibitive. As well as a scribe's to record these oral traditions. And Jesus chose a life of humble poverty and let his followers record for Christian Jewish posterity.

Thus like John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, they both related to the common poor populous and contrasted from the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes's religious practices above the Dead sea and where the Dead Sea scrolls were buried in 200 bC.

The Dead Sea scrolls gives us great insight from the Jewish scrolls that Essenes's recorded, that were found and taught about their religious teachings and Jewish practices of that time period.

JFlorio, touched on some of the other political and other reasons.


I will have to continue this later this evening, my apologies, but you have put up much to discuss and I hope others share their opinions too but also in a peaceful and respectful manner.

Just look at the website, executive orders are just one thing. Open your eyes.

PSD and PPD's are something different. It's not how many EO's one passes, It's the one EO that allows for total control,

Obama made the Patriot Act permeant without a v**e from Congress in secret. Do you know know your personal American Rights and Freedoms are now ?

Where was the left when this happened under Obama, But under Bush they were screaming about their rights as Americans ?

Go figure ! Bunch of deniers !

Its called freewill, God allows

Are you crazy, It's all about their agendas, "Do-goderism" acting without thinking about the ramifications and end result. e.g.. ObamaCare the ACA, They did not get one GOP v**e or ask for a Bi-partizenship input to ObamaCare the ACA.

It was rammed down the American peoples. And the majority of Americans still do not want ObamaCare the ACA.


Democrats will not talk or listen, or even understand the ramifications to their "Do-goderism." How can you have a conversation with a person who not talk facts in a intellectual discussion.

No, once biten, twice shy. Since you stated it, its all yours, you go and hug a democrat today.

Until they stop their deviousness and d******eness and this national Alinsky rules for radicals brainwashing technique, It will be a cold day in Hell.

I agree with you, SCOTUS have violated the Constitution an legislating laws.

Obama has done the same thing, wWith his 68 and counting EO orders.

Start viewing actual wording of the of these secret laws being passed and bookmark this site.

a. Secret P**********l Executive Orders http://fas.org/irp/offdocs/ppd/index.html
b. Secret PPD P**********l Orders http://fas.org/irp/offdocs/psd/index.html
c. Secret PSD P**********l Orders http://fas.org/irp/offdocs/direct.htm

Did you get my answer your question ? I was hoping to here from you, re: my answers to your question. I would like to hear your thoughts ?

a. I don't recall him being stoned, as in the traditional way, unless it was included during his walk.

You make a valid point to where to go for recorded history.

b. Let me ask you, as I have asked here before,

Why do you believe Christ had never created a book of his own thought and teachings?

b. Quite honestly Artemis, I don't believe that I'm that presumptuous, that I could speak for Jesus Christ on this matter.

As to the reason why Jesus did-not record or write anything down. The only thing I can say was that he was focused on salvation and his teaching ministry.


Are you having second thoughts about your question ? I've noticed from past comment, that this is also a recurring theme of yours and has not been answered ? Am I correct ? Having any doubts about his 650 plus, biblical prophetic references: Christ's birth, life and death of the Messiah ?

As with marcus's, and his belief their is no prove-able reference to the authenticity of the historical Jesus Christ. Unfortunately we have had no factual or have a intellectual discussion input from marcus, so I guess he is out of the picture for now.



Jesus did have the twelve Apostles, and I'm sure that he found many character traits and abilities for his newly founded Christian Jewish ministry. Most probably Jesus instructed his Apostles as to the course of action they to have taken during and after his death.


Tell me why did Jesus's Christian Jewish ministry succeeded and flourished with the Jew's, Samaritans, the Roman's and the pagan world ?

Why did Jesus Christ ministry succeed with-out the written words of Jesus Christ on velum or papyrus. I can't answer that question.

We see in Paul of Tarsus's letters to the 7 churches in Anatolia as to His success and in Acts' of the Apostles their success with-out the writings of Jesus Christ. Or did he have copies of them ? Or references to them.


The message and teaching by the Apostles must have been profound and compelling.


Was it his Jewish understanding of the old Testament Torah, his teaching abilities, his oration abilities, or was it, Jesus Christ's abilities to perform miracles; e.g., healing of the sick, casting out demons, feeding the masses, and raising of the dead ect. ?

What was Jesus's relationship with the people and how he related to the common folk and was beloved by the masses ?

Jesus also had another side, an adversarial condemnation of the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes ?


Or was this the the Christ, the Messiah fulfilled ? In fulfillment of Biblical prophesy's ?



I'll let you make up your own mind ?



Artemis, Just look at the oral recordings of the Old Testament teaching and oral histories, do you think they had practiced be the "Bardi" of Middle-eastern oral traditions, found commonly though all cultures ?

People were not stupid or ignorant, they just didn't have computers, recording devices or pen and paper. Their brain capacity was no different from you or I. Those people had the same intellectual capabilities that you or I have.

Oral traditions of the "Bardi" was the easiest method used by many cultures to record history and traditions, even to this present day in some cultures practice this oral method, is still being practiced around earth.

I'm sure that these twelve Apostles were not stupid people or ignorant either. Judas Iscar**t had been a trained by several Jewish rabbinical schools as was Paul of Tarsus and Luke the physician.

And what was the end results of the Apostles, by these untrained unorthodox people and scholars, look what they accomplished with God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Greatest beautiful biblical book ever written and references the world has ever seen, the Gospels and letters of the New Testament.

The incredible Christian writers and their inter-weaving of biblical passages and references, prophecy of the Old and New Testament into and referenced bible. It's just incredible and divinely spirited messages from ordinary men, for all the world to read and contemplate on ?

Some Biblical references and prophecy go back over a thousand years or more.


But for practical reasons, Jesus's teaching, it would be the oral traditional methods of Oral Memory, as practiced be the "Bardi" recorded in Greek and Roman periods of ancient literature.

Bards, are a European term, from Celtic history as recorded by Julius Cesar of the French-Gaul wars, Spanish Celtic cultures, Germanic tribes and Britannia Celtic tribes, but all these culture's had a oral recorded tradition.

Look at the American Native's. But you knew that right ?

An interesting article on Oral traditions. bard.ansteorra.org/bardcraft/whatisabard.doc



The other reason would be to record on papyrus or animal vellum, it would have been cost prohibitive. As well as a scribe's to record these oral traditions. And Jesus chose a life of humble poverty and let his followers record for Christian Jewish posterity.

Thus like John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, they both related to the common poor populous and contrasted from the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes's religious practices above the Dead sea and where the Dead Sea scrolls were buried in 200 bC.

The Dead Sea scrolls gives us great insight from the Jewish scrolls that Essenes's recorded, that were found and taught about their religious teachings and Jewish practices of that time period.

JFlorio, touched on some of the other political and other reasons.

Artemis, The funny thing about history is, just when you think you know everything, history and religion, throw's you a curve ball. Then you need to rethink, your perspective of the historical accounts of Jesus Christ.

By the way I'm not Jewish, I just know my history and my Christian background and am constantly learning new things and about the Hebrew and Greek meaning of words using lexicon, concordance, dictionary's, Morphological Analysis Codes and combined biblical software, which is incredible for learning and teaching.

But sadly, this is a repeating and continual practice of ney-sayers, who repeat the same one-liner responses, to the historical validity of Jesus Christ.

Atheist, can-not even prove or rely on Darwinism, due to the scientific knowledge and scientific discoveries: from DNA examinations, Microscopy, archeology and forensic sciences ect. which has all disproven Darwinism's theory of evolution, with the use of science and scientific experimentation . . .

Just maybe, what you thought you know, about Jesus Christ, and your Christian beliefs change. And for some people their pagan beliefs, they don't change.

Just maybe, some individuals have to re-examined, and or re-evaluate the validity and authenticity of the historical Jesus Christ, being presented by various atheistic and agnostic groups out there?

And come to the conclusion and say they don't know everything ?





The knowledge of the Christians, Romans and the Jewish people religious culture and authenticity has been well recorded and vetted. And yet we still question, what has been recorded and still deny the authenticity of these written sources.

Why is that ? Are we that distrusting about the word of God ?


Religious Faith: a metaphor, is a mustard seed. Yet, it can't be proven to some, and it can't be disproven to others. A conundrum don't you think ?


a. Historically, when the Jewish religious authorities signed the documented treaties with Rome. The Jewish people gave up all authority of capital punishment, to the Roman authorities. This is why Pontius Pilate Livius, was ultimately responsible for the execution and crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

The scourging of Jesus is a different topic from Jewish and Roman terms. The Jewish scourging was 39 stroke's with a lash or reed. The Roman scourging of Jesus, was with whips and barbs, Jesus was so unrecognizable after his scourging. This has also has been authenticated by history.

This is why Jesus was hanged on the cross. And the reason for Roman crucifixion on a tree was used for a capital offense and punishment. Romans would not have used stoning, as the practice of the Jewish authority and religious tradition.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshua [the Nazarene] was hanged.

For forty days before the execution took place a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

Now I ask you to consider this historical passage ? What was the Jewish practiced capital offense and punishment. It was stoning ! There were two references in the gospels of John, that the people and the Sanhedrin tried to stone him.

Why do you think the herald's went out and gave this message to the people. Intimidation and nothing less. Why the persecution of the early christians and Apostles. Intimidation and nothing less.

Remember that this was a Jewish political theocracy State, working with a co-Roman military occupation in Palestine, as the Roman's called the geographical area.

What was the usual practice religious heresy, apostasy and sorcery and other political and religious crimes by the jewish authorities ?

Stoning, as in the case of the Jewish woman fornicator, Stoning. In this biblical reference in John. This was a trap by the Sanhedrin, during Jesus's ministry and what was Jesus Christ's response ? "He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Very tactful of him, don't you think.

Incidentally, this was the first time that was recorded, that Jesus Christ wrote hebrew and anything down, even if it was in sand or earth. We know that Jesus Christ could read, write and speak several languages.

Jesus Christ was recorded in the gospels to have read several passages from the Jewish Hebrew Torah at the synagog in Nazareth.

Jesus Christ knew Aramaic, Egyptian, and Hebrew at age of twelve, when speaking in the Jerusalem at the Temple with Jewish scholars.

And most probably knew Greek and Roman when talking, to Pontius Pilate Livius, Roman governor of Judaea, from 26 CE to 36 CE, and was ultimately responsible for the execution and crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth. http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate01.htm

Read her true official biography, it will totally astound as to: who and what groups she is affiliated with.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=18

Oh yah, well your b***h candidate Hillary is going down on January 20, 2016,
when she gets to sing like a canary. Know your facts little boy ,and be prepared to have some ammunition when you come to play..

Federal Racketeering (RICO) charges and corruption charges, hopefully she will be pacing a 4 x 6 bared cell wall. Or at least end her political career once and for all.

Plaintiff sues the defendant “here’s the Case 9:15-cv-80388-XXXX Document 1 Entered on FLSD Docket, 03/24/2015, Page 1 of 59 http://www.freedomwatchusa.org/pdf/150324-filed%20Clinton%20RICO%20complaint.pdf

As individuals operating a criminal enterprise, for violating plaintiff’s statutory rights to obtain documents under the Freedom of Information Act … for violating plaintiff’s due process rights, vested property rights, constitutional rights, and for misappropriating property,” the filing says.

Finally she is getting her's, you're "HO" has no family value, except greed, power and corruption.

Cant hide from those 60,000 deleted private emails and the FIOA laws that she violated. Private Server, Hillary is not above the LAW, jackass.

By the way look up the latest poll on Hillary's untrustworthiness by the American people. On whether Clinton “is honest and trustworthy,” CNN found just 42 percent of people say she is; 57 percent say she is not. In March, 50 percent said she was honest and trustworthy and 49 percent said she was not.
 
In the Post/ABC poll, just 41 percent of those surveyed nationally say she’s honest and trustworthy, compared with 52 percent who say she’s not. That’s a 22-point change just within the last year, the Post notes.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-03/hillary-clintons-poll-numbers-plunge-worst-2001

She is an American not a islamic terrorist.

3jack