alabuck Loc: Tennessee

Now, I realize that there are many out there in OPP-land that are just chomping at the bit to discuss theology and law. So, here's your opportunity!

With many of our conservative brethren declaring that we're a "Christian nation," and that our founding fathers were "Christians," and that our laws are based on "Judeo-Christian ethics," I ask: At what point do we toss out all of the law-books and simply use the laws and examples that are found in the Holy Bible to determine the guilt or innocence of those accused of a crime; the fair and impartial way to settle property disputes; or even, what determines/defines a criminal and/or illegal act and its associated punishment?

As a final piece for you to chew on, I ask you to express your theological and/or litigatory view of the following; President John Adams, signed the Treaty of Tripoli, that was ratified by the United States Senate, without debate, unanimously in 1797.

Article 11, of the treaty states: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Given the pronouncement in this piece of legislation, begun by President George Washington, passed by Congress and signed by the President Adams, only a decade after the Constitution took effect, how can this treaty be accurate in its declaration that the United States IS NOT a Christian nation?

Chameleon12

It is accurate. This nation was not founded as a Christian nation although several of our founders were Christian. Many of the most important ones we recognize today however were Deists or Theology- rationalists It would be more accurate to say this nation was founded as a theological nation.

Chameleon12

Take that, you agnostic heathens, you Godless infidels!!!

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

...no it would be accurate to say that we were founded as a constitutional republic...what the heck is a theological nation mean?

rebob14

Founded on Christian principals, not as a theocracy. Lincoln: "as god gives us to see the light".

Brucey Loc: USA

:thumbup: :thumbup: We were a nation of Christian principles, not so much today. Today we have a dictator.
Mr. Obama makes anything he wants a law.
If congress rules against him, he simply through his minions has their law unconstitutional. We are no longer a nation of the people, by the people and for the people, we are a nation one man, by himself, for himself, period.
Mr. Obama is not a Christian , never was a Christian , he is a Muslim from birth and always will be a Muslim.
If the people of this nation want a real change, they will need to go to the polls and make that change happen.

jelun

Maybe attitudes like this are why Christians no longer see Christianity as important in the US.
Did Jesus of Nazareth preach judgement and disdain?

jelun

Christians seem to have trouble with that concept. Their loss.
It is no wonder they can't get their Rapture, they will never be ready at this rate. There won't be anyone to raise up.

amvaap

It's very interesting that words can have a theme or spirit of their own that when taken in historical context transcends the printed page. The US was attempting to protect its merchant navy half a world away in a part of the world who's seas were primarily controlled by the less than friendly British navy and in addition they were coming under attack by Muslim Pirates that made war not only for monetary gain, but for Jihad. If you notice from earlier articles to the treaty, we had to also pay a tax or tribute to the Bey as is a customary form of surrender to the will of the Bey. In article 11 of the treaty, the US was trying to assure the Bey that America, unlike the Barbary Coast, was not a Theocracy and there in lies the difference. America was founded on Christian principles by people who mostly observed those principles when designing America, but those same people were attempting to avoid forming a Theocracy or maintaining a State Church. That in NO WAY changes the fact that the concept of America, The decleration and the Constitution are based on the Christian ethic.

Now, I realize that there are many out there in OPP-land that are just chomping at the bit to discuss theology and law. So, here's your opportunity!

With many of our conservative brethren declaring that we're a "Christian nation," and that our founding fathers were "Christians," and that our laws are based on "Judeo-Christian ethics," I ask: At what point do we toss out all of the law-books and simply use the laws and examples that are found in the Holy Bible to determine the guilt or innocence of those accused of a crime; the fair and impartial way to settle property disputes; or even, what determines/defines a criminal and/or illegal act and its associated punishment?

As a final piece for you to chew on, I ask you to express your theological and/or litigatory view of the following; President John Adams, signed the Treaty of Tripoli, that was ratified by the United States Senate, without debate, unanimously in 1797.

Article 11, of the treaty states: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Given the pronouncement in this piece of legislation, begun by President George Washington, passed by Congress and signed by the President Adams, only a decade after the Constitution took effect, how can this treaty be accurate in its declaration that the United States IS NOT a Christian nation?[/quote]

Kachina

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I do believe this country was designed with a Religious ideology. The constitution speaks of this country and its people have the freedom to practice their religion whatever that may be. I don't think the constitution says anything about Christian beliefs. One thing I do believe is that this country has lost any godly ideology and that is why this country is such a mess. I am not sure when it happened, but somehow God became an enemy to this country and we cannot speak His name or display anything that pays tribute to him without condemnation or even breaking some law. Without God in our country we become a nation of disorder, corruption and lawlessness. I do believe there is evil in the world and unfortunately a lot of it is right here.

Kachina

[/quote]

I do believe this country was designed with a Religious ideology. The constitution speaks of this country and its people have the freedom to practice their religion whatever that may be. I don't think the constitution says anything about Christian beliefs. One thing I do believe is that this country has lost any godly ideology and that is why this country is such a mess. I am not sure when it happened, but somehow God became an enemy to this country and we cannot speak His name or display anything that pays tribute to him without condemnation or even breaking some law. Without God in our country we become a nation of disorder, corruption and lawlessness. I do believe there is evil in the world and unfortunately a lot of it is right here.

Brucey Loc: USA

[/quote]


You are right when you say our forefathers did not want to creat a theocracy; however it was built on Christian principles not Muslim principles. A majority of the people who were here as our nation struggled to exist were Christians. God was the driving force to this countries growth, but unfortunately the Christian principles shortly turned to greed increased sinfulness. We turned away from him, we put our faith in the almighty dollar. Don't try to put yourself above others by talking about something you know not about.
The rapture will come, but not in our timing, in God's time and his time only. If you have been saved by his Grace, welcome.

jelun

Could you give just three (3) examples of not being able to speak of God, of an inability to display anything that pays tribute to a God?
One rule only, the public school prohibition of staff not leading prayers is out. That old, tired, lie has been debunked too often to spend time on, I hope you will agree.
BTW, I thought that the word was that we had too many laws.

Loki Loc: Georgia

There were 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. Out of those 55, 49 listed themselves as "Protestant," and 3 as "Roman Catholic." Thomas Jefferson and George Washington have been described as Deists. This is incorrect. They were what was known as "anti-clerical Christians." They believed that the practice of Christianity did not require an "organized religion," or a clergy. This was a fairly common practice in the 18th century, a reaction to the blatant political activism of both the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church, particularly in it's French and Spanish incarnations. What you called "Theology Rationalism" is properly called "Theistic Rationalism," and it does seem likely that some of the Founders subscribed to this belief system, which is still, at it's core, based on the Judeo-Christian ethos. There does not seem to be much difference between Theistic Rationalism and anti-clerical Christianity.
At the time the First Amendment was ratified, belief in God was nearly universal, and Christianity was by far the dominant religion, to the point where it is doubtful that any of the Founders, brilliant as many of them were, could have envisioned anything but Christianity in some form as the dominant religion in this country. Banning Nativity scenes and such from government property on First Amendment grounds is, I believe, completely against the intentions of the Founders, as long as there are not provisions prohibiting displays of other faiths. The First Amendment not only says "Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of religion," it also says "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." How this can be interpreted as banning religion is beyond me, when the clear meaning appears to be the prevention of bias for or against any one religion. My personal belief is that given the unlikelihood that the Founders envisioned anything other than a form of Christianity as the dominant religion, as I said, they were wishful of preventing a State-approved and dominated Church, such as wielded such political influence in European countries.

jelun

The means for determining laws and their basis has NOTHING to do with whether the founders envisioned anything other than Christianity as the dominant religion. What they did was try to ensure that people would continue to realize that freedom to exercise choice in religion without the government's interference would continue.
It is too bad that so many Christians are so afraid they can no longer respect that.