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Can Americans Handle Democracy?
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Jan 24, 2024 02:09:24   #
nonalien1 Loc: Mojave Desert
 
America 1 wrote:
While today we marvel at the extraordinary accomplishment of our Founding Fathers, their own reaction to the US Constitution when it was presented to them for their signatures was considerably less enthusiastic.
Benjamin Franklin, ever the optimist even at the age of 81, gave what was for him a remarkably restrained assessment in his final speech before the Constitutional Convention: "…when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views."
He thought it impossible to expect a "perfect production" from such a gathering, but he believed that the Constitution they had just drafted, "with all its faults," was better than any alternative that was likely to emerge.
Nearly all of the delegates harbored objections, but persuaded by Franklin's logic, they put aside their misgivings and affixed their signatures to it. Their over-riding concern was the tendency in nearly all parts of the young country toward disorder and disintegration. Americans had used the doctrine of popular sovereignty--"democracy"--as the rationale for their successful rebellion against English authority in 1776. But they had not yet worked out fully the question that has plagued all nations aspiring to democratic government ever since: how to implement principles of popular majority rule while at the same time preserving stable governments that protect the rights and liberties of all citizens.

Few believed that a new federal constitution alone would be sufficient to create a unified nation out of a collection of independent republics spread out over a vast physical space, extraordinarily diverse in their economic interests, regional loyalties, and ethnic and religious attachments. And there would be new signs of disorder after 1787 that would remind Americans what an incomplete and unstable national structure they had created: settlers in western Pennsylvania rebelled in 1794 because of taxes on their locally distilled whiskey; in western North Carolina there were abortive attempts to create an independent republic of "Franklin" which would ally itself with Spain to insure its independence from the United States; there was continued conflict with Indians across the whole western frontier and increased fear of slave unrest, particularly when news of the slave-led revolution in Haiti reached American shores.

But as fragile as America's federal edifice was at the time of the founding, there was much in the culture and environment that contributed to a national consensus and cohesion: a common language; a solid belief in the principles of English common law and constitutionalism; a widespread commitment (albeit in diverse forms) to the Protestant religion; a shared revolutionary experience; and, perhaps most important, an economic environment which promised most free, white Americans if not great wealth, at least an independent sufficiency.

The American statesmen who succeeded those of the founding generation served their country with a self-conscious sense that the challenges of maintaining a democratic union were every bit as great after 1787 as they were before. Some aspects of their nation-building program--their continuing toleration of slavery and genocidal policies toward American Indians--are fit objects of national shame, not honor. But statesmen of succeeding generations--Lincoln foremost among them--would continue the quest for a "more perfect union."

Such has been our success in building a powerful and cohesive democratic nation-state in post-Civil War America that most Americans today assume that principles of democracy and national harmony somehow naturally go hand-in-hand. But as we look around the rest of the world in the post-Soviet era, we find ample evidence that democratic revolutions do not inevitably lead to national harmony or universal justice. We see that the expression of the "popular will" can create a cacophony of discordant voices, leaving many baffled about the true meaning of majority rule. In far too many places around the world today, the expression of the "popular will" is nothing more than the unleashing of primordial forces of tribal and religious identity which further confound the goal of building stable and consensual governments.

As we look at the state of our federal union 211 years after the Founders completed their work, there is cause for satisfaction that we have avoided many of the plagues afflicting so many other societies, but this is hardly cause for complacency. To be sure, the US Constitution itself has not only survived the crises confronting it in the past, but in so doing, it has in itself become our nation's most powerful symbol of unity--a far preferable alternative to a monarch or a national religion, the institutions on which most nations around the world have relied. Moreover, our Constitution is a stronger, better document than it was when it initially emerged from the Philadelphia Convention. Through the amendment process (in particular, through the 13th, 14th, 15th and 19th Amendments), it has become the protector of the rights of all the people, not just some of the people.

On the other hand, the challenges to national unity under our Constitution are, if anything, far greater than those confronting the infant nation in 1787. Although the new nation was a pluralistic one by the standards of the 18th century, the face of America in 1998 looks very different from the original: we are no longer a people united by a common language, religion or culture; and while our overall level of material prosperity is staggering by the standards of any age, the widening gulf between rich and poor is perhaps the most serious threat to a common definition of the "pursuit of happiness."

The conditions that threaten to undermine our sense of nationhood, bound up in the debate over slavery and manifested in intense sectional conflict during the pre-Civil War era, are today both more complex and diffuse. Some of today's conditions are part of the tragic legacy of slavery--a racial climate marked too often by mutual mistrust and misunderstanding and a condition of desperate poverty within our inner cities that has left many young people so alienated that any standard definition of citizenship becomes meaningless.
More commonly, but in the long run perhaps just as alarming, tens of millions of Americans have been turned off by the corrupting effects of money on the political system.
Bombarded with negative advertising about their candidates, they express their feelings of alienation by staying home on election day.
If there is a lesson in all of this it is that our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self-correcting document. It requires the constant attention and devotion of all citizens.

There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created.

His answer was: "A republic if you can keep it."

The brevity of that response should not cause us to undervalue its essential meaning: democratic republics are not merely founded upon the consent of the people, they are also absolutely dependent upon the active and informed involvement of the people for their continued good health.
https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-library/classroom/perspectives-on-the-constitution-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it#:~:text=His%20answer%20was%3A%20%22A%20republic,of%20the%20people%20for%20their
While today we marvel at the extraordinary accompl... (show quote)


Upon the active and informed involvement of the people for their continued good health
The people in power now don't want us informed. Obama's presidency was the least transparent of modern day presidents. Biden learned from him. Or is it really Obama's third term? The people tried to be active and got thrown in jail as insurrectionists. The whole administration should be thrown out for not following the constitution. But instead are finding support among people some consider patriots. Ignoring bidens lack of coherency and blatant refusal to close the border

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Jan 24, 2024 06:38:42   #
pescado rojo
 
straightUp wrote:
Ah, well there we go... It seems you never actually learn what these concepts are, you just respond to what other people say about them. Blade did the same thing... He must have found the same website you did and he just copied all these quotes. I already responded to them and pointed out the lack of context. What you are doing is the same thing people do when they write E=mc2 and think that makes them smart because they're quoting Einstein, even though they have no clue what the equation actually means.
Ah, well there we go... It seems you never actuall... (show quote)


Speaking of an understanding of the English language, you capitalize a noun that is being used in the context of a proper noun. I understand Progressives have problems with this sort of thing.
As for your definition of a democracy, ( notice by use of "a" I demoted it from proper noun) you forgot to mention the rest of the definition that seemingly does not fit your agenda.
b(1)
: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.
Merriam--Webster, same place you got yours.
Now for your own history lesson, a republic (notice that pesky "a" again? Now, had I said The Republic, that would have been a proper noun) is a democratic form of government in which the citizens of said political entity elect representatives, mouthpieces, if you will, to represent their interests withing the confines of a constitution or set of rules of some sort. In a direct type of a democracy, we would have to be our own representatives.
I hope I didn't use too many big words.

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Jan 24, 2024 07:00:58   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
fuckedUp wrote:
I didn't say WHO elects the president. I just said the president is elected and that makes us a democracy. If we elected the president directly, that would be direct democracy but as you said, the president is elected by electors who in turn represent us. THAT makes it a representative DEMOCRACY. Either way its still a democracy. BTW, we actually do elect our representatives directly.

Having a constitution, which almost every country in the world has now, simply means there is a set of laws limiting what the government can do.

Britain, Norway and Denmark for instance are constitutional monarchies because they have monarchs not presidents but they also have constitutions AND parliaments that are themselves representative democracies led by prime ministers as determined by the majority party. Our equivalent being the Speaker of the House.

Is this too complicated for you? Is it just easier to recite the simple but erroneous mantra that representatives turn a democracy into a republic?
I didn't say WHO elects the president. I just said... (show quote)

No matter how you twist yourself like a pretzel with your word salad doesn't change the fact that we are a republic
and not a democracy.

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Jan 24, 2024 07:01:55   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
fuckedUp wrote:
Did I say that?

I wasn't talking to you oh narcissistic one.

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Jan 24, 2024 07:17:48   #
microphor Loc: Home is TN
 
facts matter wrote:
Unfortunately, democracy is truly challenged when "compromise" becomes a bad word.


Some things should not be "compromised". Say, flooding our country with illegal immigrants from all over the world "the law we have in place doesn't support that". Or, forgiving student loans after Supreme court rules it unconstitutional. Selective prosecution seems to be the new democrat way (who was prosecuted for attack on guards and property at White House in 2020?). Just a few examples.

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Jan 24, 2024 07:26:53   #
microphor Loc: Home is TN
 
nonalien1 wrote:
You think Biden is keeping Americans safe by letting anyone and their terrorist uncle cross our borders at will? I thought a safe and secure border was part of his oath of office, a promise to the people of America.
For that matter don't sanctuary cities break federal law by allowing illegal invaders aid and comfort? How does Biden get a pass Biden is not executing the laws as written he is writing his own. With 5 million invaders sneaking around my back yard somehow I don't feel as safe as I once did ,before Biden swore an oath to we the people. FJB
I won't even start on him giving away my tax dollars to the most corrupt country on the continent Not even our continent mind you . Not even part of NATO. Again FJB.
You think Biden is keeping Americans safe by letti... (show quote)


I hear you and agree with your sentiment.

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Jan 24, 2024 09:18:29   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
nonalien1 wrote:
You think Biden is keeping Americans safe by letting anyone and their terrorist uncle cross our borders at will?

I don't think Biden is letting anyone and their terrorist uncle cross our borders at will. I see no evidence to suggest this is actually happening. What I see is a lot of right-wing commentators just SAYING it's happening.

As an immigrant myself I have taken a special interest in this area. For the past 15 years especially, I've been paying very close attention. I refer to the official reports, I fact check the claims and I've even been to the border several times. My bet is you do none of these things. You just listen to commentators and get all worked up over nothing.

What I can tell you is that there has been a huge increase in the number of migrants coming to the border and with that increase in numbers you are bound to get more slipping in, but the border isn't "wide-open" That's just dramatic BS being fed to a population of chicken-shits that pee their pants when think about immigrants.

nonalien1 wrote:

I thought a safe and secure border was part of his oath of office, a promise to the people of America.

Well, I guess you thought wrong. Here's the president's oath...

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Where do you see anything about a safe and secure border? The entire concern is for the preservation and protection of the Constitution.

nonalien1 wrote:

For that matter don't sanctuary cities break federal law by allowing illegal invaders aid and comfort?

No they don't. There is no such federal law. Trump tried to pressure cities into denying these people aid and comfort but the president doesn't have the power to legislate. All the president can do is dictate orders to his administration but city governments are outside that jurisdiction.

City governments can literally tell the president to f**k off and there's nothing he can do about it. That's essentially what they did to Trump and it drove his supporters nuts. I was laughing my ass off. If Trump wasn't such a dumbshit he would have known the rules better and avoided the embarrassment.

nonalien1 wrote:

How does Biden get a pass Biden is not executing the laws as written he is writing his own.

Show me the federal laws that you think Biden is breaking with his immigration policy. As far as I can see, there ARE none. The president DOES however have a right to dictate the policies of his own administration (as long as they don't violate the Constitution or a federal law)

nonalien1 wrote:

With 5 million invaders sneaking around my back yard somehow I don't feel as safe as I once did ,before Biden swore an oath to we the people. FJB

Man up dude... A free country is no place for paranoid chicken-shits.

nonalien1 wrote:

I won't even start on him giving away my tax dollars to the most corrupt country on the continent Not even our continent mind you . Not even part of NATO. Again FJB.

If you're talking about Israel, I would agree. If there is one problem I have with the Biden administration, it's the unwavering support for the Zionist government in Israel.

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Jan 24, 2024 09:39:08   #
microphor Loc: Home is TN
 
straightUp wrote:
If you're talking about Israel, I would agree. If there is one problem I have with the Biden administration, it's the unwavering support for the Zionist government in Israel.


If he doesn't close border and allows anyone to cross into the US without proper vetting, yes he is knowingly allowing terrorist to cross into the US.

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Jan 24, 2024 09:56:36   #
MatthewlovesAyn Loc: Ohio
 
Milosia2 wrote:
Nailed it !
Democracy is the absolute worst form of government,
Except for all the rest !!!


Is that quote so iconic that you didn't feel the need to cite?
Churchill told that as a joke. We all (except you) know that our Constitutional Republic is far superior to the monarchy driven democracy of the UK. We achieved more under our capitalistic system in 200 years than the rest of humanity in 2 million.

I'll have the good grace to cite.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin

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Jan 24, 2024 10:44:07   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
microphor wrote:
If he doesn't close border and allows anyone to cross into the US without proper vetting, yes he is knowingly allowing terrorist to cross into the US.

I agree with your statement based on your scenario. But your scenario just isn't reality. The border is restricted... It allows legal immigration and is resistant to illegal immigration, just like it has been since we started to limit immigration back in 1910. Immigrants are processed and vetted, the exceptions being the few that sneak in but they usually wind up getting picked up and deported. Law enforcement is never 100%.

Closing the border means not letting ANYONE in period. I know Trump and his supporters would like to close the border, that's always been a theme among fascist movements but I think its a stupid idea founded on fear and loathing.

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Jan 24, 2024 11:49:30   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
MatthewlovesAyn wrote:
Is that quote so iconic that you didn't feel the need to cite?
Churchill told that as a joke.

Well, it was a humorous way of telling the truth in typical English fashion.

MatthewlovesAyn wrote:

We all (except you) know that our Constitutional Republic is far superior to the monarchy driven democracy of the UK.

You can make that assumption if it makes you feel better but the fact is there is very little difference between the two forms. Our legislative bodies are almost exactly the same... both are representative democracies. It's the executive branch that differs. One led by a "rightful" monarch and one lead by an elected president. In both cases there is a constitution limiting their power.

I've actually lived, worked and voted in both countries. I gotta say with my experience in the U.S. mostly being in California, I like the climate better. But as I get older, I'm realizing the U.K. has better services.

MatthewlovesAyn wrote:

We achieved more under our capitalistic system in 200 years than the rest of humanity in 2 million.

LOL - This is one of the reasons why the Brits think Americans are so funny. We are so full of ourselves and so unaware of anything else.

MatthewlovesAyn wrote:

I'll have the good grace to cite.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin

Franklin was referring to direct democracy, which is not the form of democracy that most countries use today. It's a cute quote and it's fun to watch people taking it so seriously.

Obviously the answer is to have a law that says wolves can't eat lambs for dinner. Pretty simple. This is exactly why we have a constitution. A majority can vote to silence the opposition for instance but the Constitution says the opposition has a right to free speech, so the vote becomes symbolic at best.

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Jan 24, 2024 11:52:44   #
Radar OReilly
 
sail375 wrote:
Democracy is a form of Government. However, America is a Constitutional Republic, which is a different form of Government.

Many in America have rejected their American Citizenship, their allegiances to this Constitutional Republic, and their respect for those who protect and defend America. That is all admitted Behavior in a number of Polls and Surveys of those many People. It can also be seen every day in the Behaviors of the many people.

The two principal Political Parties have become the most corrupt organizations in America as they follow and practice their religions of Power and Greed. Their Voters think nothing of steadfastly supporting and electing the Corruption that is the Culture of the two Parties and their Partisan Unity.

60 years ago this Nation began its Cultural change to Division, Anger, and Hatred that came out of the Viet Nam War Era. That was when America began to blame its own Military, rather than its Political Leaders for the war. It was also the Culture of cowardly Draft Dodging, and the forgiveness of those who committed the Crime of Draft Dodging. Then came the failure of our own elected Senate who failed to ratify the Paris Peace Accords, thus nullifying all the Military sacrifices the American Military suffered in the war.

One can not appreciate this continuing Ungrateful Nation's Cultural change unless one lived the growth and expansion in the ramifications of this Cultural Change all these decades since.

This Ungrateful Nation and its Culture of Division, Anger, and Hatred has continued to this day. Many Americans are being tagged as American Terrorists just because of who and what we are. We did not surrender to the Evil of today's Unified Partisan Political Culture.

This is a Cultural now that is quickly traveling down the Road to Self Destruction. Many People have total allegiance to the Partisan Politics that is leading this destructive parade. The two major Political Parties have joined forces to make this self destruction happen. Each is Divided, Angry, and Hateful towards the other, in blind obedience to their chosen Partisan Masters.

Many Citizens don't even know they are self destructing. They have surrendered their Souls to the Ugly Evil of Combative Partisan Politics. Thus rejecting their own Free Will.

How does one protect and defend this Republic from that kind of Evil? Why should that Culture be protected and defended? Those loyal to the destructive Partisan Politics Culture really have no right to be protected and defended by Patriots allgiant to this Constitutional Republic.

There is no Freedom or Peace being offered by this Partisan Political Destructive Culture. It demands absolute Allegiance and Servitude to the Partisan Masters. Or else!

This Republic still exits, and still has allegiant American Citizens who have left the destructive Culture of Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats and Republicans will probably continue and escalate their War with each other. They have clearly rejected their desire and capacity to be American Citizens of this American Constitutional Republic.

The rest of us in America, who still believe in America, only need to confine the carnage and destruction by Democrats and Republicans, and defend our Republic until the two Partisan Armies finally destroy each other. Which they will do.

We still have our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Freedom. All of which is worth protecting and defending from those seek to destroy them.

There are 335 million People in this Nation. Each of those People still has time to decide who and what they want to be. Will they choose Democrat, Republican, or American? The three are no longer interchangeable, are they?
Democracy is a form of Government. However, Americ... (show quote)


Thanks for posting a great article. Very thought provoking.

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Jan 24, 2024 11:56:40   #
microphor Loc: Home is TN
 
straightUp wrote:
I agree with your statement based on your scenario. But your scenario just isn't reality. The border is restricted... It allows legal immigration and is resistant to illegal immigration, just like it has been since we started to limit immigration back in 1910. Immigrants are processed and vetted, the exceptions being the few that sneak in but they usually wind up getting picked up and deported. Law enforcement is never 100%.

Closing the border means not letting ANYONE in period. I know Trump and his supporters would like to close the border, that's always been a theme among fascist movements but I think its a stupid idea founded on fear and loathing.
I agree with your statement based on your scenario... (show quote)


That is absolutely not true. People are being allowed into this country with no proof of who they are, no picture ID. Some may have papers but that doesn't mean the papers are real or even belong to the person carrying them. These people are boarding our planes without proper ID, but I can't, my child can't. Do you not know these things. Look them up, that's one of the reasons ICE wants to issue these special ID's as CNN reported "ICE is developing new ID card for migrants amid growing arrivals at the border". Even if they did all have ID's, how could you process thousands of arrivals a day and verify thier identity?

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Jan 24, 2024 11:58:15   #
Radar OReilly
 
federally indicted mattoid wrote:
Correct.

Repeal Citizens United.


Correct and agree Citizen's United needs repealed...Corporations ARE NOT People/voters

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Jan 24, 2024 12:11:28   #
facts matter
 
nonalien1 wrote:
You think Biden is keeping Americans safe by letting anyone and their terrorist uncle cross our borders at will? I thought a safe and secure border was part of his oath of office, a promise to the people of America.
For that matter don't sanctuary cities break federal law by allowing illegal invaders aid and comfort? How does Biden get a pass Biden is not executing the laws as written he is writing his own. With 5 million invaders sneaking around my back yard somehow I don't feel as safe as I once did ,before Biden swore an oath to we the people. FJB
I won't even start on him giving away my tax dollars to the most corrupt country on the continent Not even our continent mind you . Not even part of NATO. Again FJB.
You think Biden is keeping Americans safe by letti... (show quote)


So, do you think trump and maga will be keeping us safe by backing away from helping Ukraine fight Russian aggression or cozying up to despots or saying the US will not come to Europe's aid if Russia invades, or protect Taiwan from China?

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