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Dec 14, 2023 14:55:58   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
Milosia2 wrote:
They’re not Children till birth .
They’re fetuses until then .
California cannot kill children by abortion .


Ewe blew it again. The difference between a fetus and a baby is months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, well actually nothing. One is just a little younger then the other and under the protection of the mother. Slowly developing along the life cycle just like they will continue development after being born. Abortion is actually like being born with prejudice. Like ripped apart and beheaded before leaving the protection of the mother.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:09:12   #
American Vet
 
Milosia2 wrote:
They’re not Children till birth .
They’re fetuses until then .
California cannot kill children by abortion .


A fetus is simply one of the stages of human growth and development. They are humans/people.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:26:07   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
For all you right wing phonies, the embryo is not a child.. Long proven and accepted both Biblically and by US law.. in our country, if the embryo was really a child, support would be the order of the day and a mother could tax a tax credit when preggers..

So now drop the foolish back and forth...get back to guns so we can have a different focus on the silly questions..



Reply
 
 
Dec 14, 2023 15:31:33   #
American Vet
 
permafrost wrote:
For all you right wing phonies, the embryo is not a child.. Long proven and accepted both Biblically and by US law..


Provide evidence for your asinine comment. After all, you are a chronic liar and not to be trusted.



Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:33:37   #
XXX Loc: Somewhere north of the Mason-Dixon
 
permafrost wrote:
For all you right wing phonies, the embryo is not a child.. Long proven and accepted both Biblically and by US law.. in our country, if the embryo was really a child, support would be the order of the day and a mother could tax a tax credit when preggers..

So now drop the foolish back and forth...get back to guns so we can have a different focus on the silly questions..


It's this simple buy a weapon keep it on you and if someone kills you it's your fault. Especially when the democrats defund the police in your area.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:41:43   #
Liberty Tree
 
permafrost wrote:
For all you right wing phonies, the embryo is not a child.. Long proven and accepted both Biblically and by US law.. in our country, if the embryo was really a child, support would be the order of the day and a mother could tax a tax credit when preggers..

So now drop the foolish back and forth...get back to guns so we can have a different focus on the silly questions..


Not by the US Code and the laws in a number of states.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:44:43   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
American Vet wrote:
Provide evidence for your asinine comment. After all, you are a chronic liar and not to be trusted.


I need not prove anything.. simply look up our laws.. or get a jr high kid to do it for you. so difficult always telling you what to do and yet foot dragging and whining keep you so clueless..

Reply
 
 
Dec 14, 2023 15:45:55   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
Liberty Tree wrote:
Not by the US Code and the laws in a number of states.


OH>>>> are you telling me a woman you know got a tax credit for her pregnancy???? Oh darn but i do not believe you even for a moment..

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:49:18   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
XXX wrote:
It's this simple buy a weapon keep it on you and if someone kills you it's your fault. Especially when the democrats defund the police in your area.


FYI.. defunding the police was not/is not what you think it was about.. as for in this neck of the woods, never was done.. as for MPLS ... the reorganization, which is what it really was about did get done. but after the poorly named policy failed to be approved by a public ballot.. as for the rest of the twin cities.. I know not which ones did what or when..

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 15:52:25   #
Liberty Tree
 
permafrost wrote:
I need not prove anything.. simply look up our laws.. or get a jr high kid to do it for you. so difficult always telling you what to do and yet foot dragging and whining keep you so clueless..


18 USC 1841 You cannot prove anything you have said.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 16:01:10   #
EmilyD
 
Milosia2 wrote:
They’re not Children till birth .
They’re fetuses until then .
California cannot kill children by abortion .


This article was written in 2004...and updated in 2017...SIX years ago. So, as you can see, it is not a new perspective from the medical community. It is from the American College of Pediatricians: Doctors and researchers who study the birth and care of children. And as time passes, these things will become crystal clear with the advance of technology. They can already physically see with their own eyes an actual sperm meeting an egg. They are studying this action closer and closer and with more and more resolution (detail) from their electron microscopes.

https://acpeds.org/position-statements/when-human-life-begins

WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS

ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.

It has been recognized for millennia that both a paternal (semen) and a maternal contribution are required for the formation of a new human life. The first recorded embryological reports are in the fifth century B.C. books of Hippocrates, who noted from the study of incubating chicken eggs that the nature of the bird can be likened to that of the man. A century later, Aristotle studied the chick and other embryos but incorrectly thought that they arose from a formless mass of semen combined with menstrual blood. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek observed spermatozoa under the microscope, but thought they contained miniature humans. Spallanzani demonstrated in 1775 that both oocyte and sperm were necessary. In 1827, von Baer observed oocytes in the ovarian follicle and in the Fallopian tube and blastocysts in the uterus of a dog.

Finally, it was with the advent of the cell theory developed by Schleiden and Schwann in 1839 that it was recognized that the embryo develops from the single-celled zygote. Directly based upon this observation and the knowledge that the single-celled zygote was alive and an independent being, in 1859 the American Medical Association published a statement strongly opposing abortion, particularly commenting on the independence of the zygote during the time between its formation and its implantation.

Although the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in 1965 attempted to redefine “conception” to mean implantation rather than fertilization, medical dictionaries and even English language dictionaries both before and after 1966 define “conception” as synonymous with fertilization (sometimes via the intermediary term of “fecundation”. Moore’s 1974 edition of a human embryology textbook states that development is a continuous process that begins when an ovum is fertilized by a sperm and ends at death. It is a process of change and growth that transforms the zygote, a single cell, into a multicellular adult human being. Moore’s 2008 edition emphasizes that development does not end at birth but extends into early adulthood. Professor Emeritus of Human Embryology of the University of Arizona School of Medicine, Dr. C. Ward Kischer, affirms that “Every human embryologist, worldwide, states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization (conception).” Even authors who philosophically lean towards not attributing the same value to human life at the one-cell stage as they do to later stages of development admit that “As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.” J.T. Eberl goes on to say – and this is really the debate:

“However, what is controversial is whether this genetically unique cell should be considered a human person.”

Nonetheless, one could sensibly make the case that “personhood” can only exist in a living human being and that the division of these two entities is arbitrary at best.

In the last century, and particularly in the last decades, much more detailed observation has been made of the first 24 hours of the life of a human being. During this time the cell membranes of a sperm and ovum fuse and the first cell division occurs. When during this 24 hours does, a new human life begin? Embryologists are less united on this question. This Statement aims to clarify this issue.

During the first 24 hours, once the sperm and egg bind to each other, the membranes of these two cells fuse, creating in less than a second a single hybrid cell: the zygote, or one-cell embryo. To protect his or her bodily integrity, within minutes the zygote initiates changes in its ionic composition, releasing zinc in a spark that induces “egg activation,” first modifying the surrounding zona pellucida blocking further sperm binding to the cell surface. Cooperation between sperm and egg components to achieve replication of DNA, cell division, and growth occurs as maternally and paternally derived factors in the zygote begin interacting with and chemically modifying each other to initiate the final round of meiotic division in the maternally derived nucleus to enable DNA replication.

Finally, the nuclear membranes of the pronuclei break down (called syngamy—technically, pronuclear membranes). No new nuclear membrane encompassing both pronuclei is formed; rather, mitosis occurs and two cells, each with its own identical nucleus encased in a nuclear membrane, are formed.

Furthermore, studies with mice embryos demonstrate that despite the plasticity of which allows disrupted blastomeres to form an entire organism, ordinarily the polarity of the embryo is determined by the site of sperm penetration. (Evidence from other mammalian species suggests that the same may be true in humans, but does not offer definitive proof).

Some embryologists consider fertilization a day-long process and regard the beginning of human life as occurring near the end of this process at syngamy, whereas others consider the time of cell membrane fusion when the embryo gives evidence of being a different kind of cell than either oocyte or sperm, to be the beginning of a new human life, since within minutes the new embryo acts to prevent the merger of another sperm with itself and starts the business of self-replication. The single-celled embryo is a very different kind of cell than that of sperm or oocyte, and contains a unique genome that will determine most future bodily features and functions of his or her lifetime.

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole, and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”

It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being.

The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that corroborates that a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created.

As physicians dedicated both to scientific truth and to the Hippocratic tradition, the College values all human lives equally from the moment of conception (fertilization) until natural death. Consistent with its mission to “enable all children to reach their optimal physical and emotional health and well-being,” the College, therefore, opposes active measures that would prematurely end the life of any child at any stage of development from conception to natural death.

Original author: Fred de Miranda, MD, March 2004
Updated: Dr. Patricia Lee June, MD, March 2017

Reply
 
 
Dec 14, 2023 16:11:46   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
EmilyD wrote:
This article was written in 2004...and updated in 2017...SIX years ago. So, as you can see, it is not a new perspective from the medical community. It is from the American College of Pediatricians: Doctors and researchers who study the birth and care of children. And as time passes, these things will become crystal clear with the advance of technology. They can already physically see with their own eyes an actual sperm meeting an egg. They are studying this action closer and closer and with more and more resolution (detail) from their electron microscopes.

https://acpeds.org/position-statements/when-human-life-begins

WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS

ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.

It has been recognized for millennia that both a paternal (semen) and a maternal contribution are required for the formation of a new human life. The first recorded embryological reports are in the fifth century B.C. books of Hippocrates, who noted from the study of incubating chicken eggs that the nature of the bird can be likened to that of the man. A century later, Aristotle studied the chick and other embryos but incorrectly thought that they arose from a formless mass of semen combined with menstrual blood. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek observed spermatozoa under the microscope, but thought they contained miniature humans. Spallanzani demonstrated in 1775 that both oocyte and sperm were necessary. In 1827, von Baer observed oocytes in the ovarian follicle and in the Fallopian tube and blastocysts in the uterus of a dog.

Finally, it was with the advent of the cell theory developed by Schleiden and Schwann in 1839 that it was recognized that the embryo develops from the single-celled zygote.1 Directly based upon this observation and the knowledge that the single-celled zygote was alive and an independent being, in 1859 the American Medical Association published a statement strongly opposing abortion, particularly commenting on the independence of the zygote during the time between its formation and its implantation.

Although the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in 1965 attempted to redefine “conception” to mean implantation rather than fertilization, medical dictionaries and even English language dictionaries both before and after 1966 define “conception” as synonymous with fertilization (sometimes via the intermediary term of “fecundation”. Moore’s 1974 edition of a human embryology textbook states that development is a continuous process that begins when an ovum is fertilized by a sperm and ends at death. It is a process of change and growth that transforms the zygote, a single cell, into a multicellular adult human being. Moore’s 2008 edition emphasizes that development does not end at birth but extends into early adulthood.1 Professor Emeritus of Human Embryology of the University of Arizona School of Medicine, Dr. C. Ward Kischer, affirms that “Every human embryologist, worldwide, states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization (conception).” Even authors who philosophically lean towards not attributing the same value to human life at the one-cell stage as they do to later stages of development admit that “As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.” J.T. Eberl goes on to say – and this is really the debate:

“However, what is controversial is whether this genetically unique cell should be considered a human person.”

Nonetheless, one could sensibly make the case that “personhood” can only exist in a living human being and that the division of these two entities is arbitrary at best.

In the last century, and particularly in the last decades, much more detailed observation has been made of the first 24 hours of the life of a human being. During this time the cell membranes of a sperm and ovum fuse and the first cell division occurs. When during this 24 hours does, a new human life begin? Embryologists are less united on this question. This Statement aims to clarify this issue.

During the first 24 hours, once the sperm and egg bind to each other, the membranes of these two cells fuse, creating in less than a second a single hybrid cell: the zygote, or one-cell embryo. To protect his or her bodily integrity, within minutes the zygote initiates changes in its ionic composition, releasing zinc in a spark that induces “egg activation,” first modifying the surrounding zona pellucida blocking further sperm binding to the cell surface. Cooperation between sperm and egg components to achieve replication of DNA, cell division, and growth occurs as maternally and paternally derived factors in the zygote begin interacting with and chemically modifying each other to initiate the final round of meiotic division in the maternally derived nucleus to enable DNA replication.

Finally, the nuclear membranes of the pronuclei break down (called syngamy—technically, pronuclear membranes). No new nuclear membrane encompassing both pronuclei is formed; rather, mitosis occurs and two cells, each with its own identical nucleus encased in a nuclear membrane, are formed.

Furthermore, studies with mice embryos demonstrate that despite the plasticity of which allows disrupted blastomeres to form an entire organism, ordinarily the polarity of the embryo is determined by the site of sperm penetration. (Evidence from other mammalian species suggests that the same may be true in humans, but does not offer definitive proof).

Some embryologists consider fertilization a day-long process and regard the beginning of human life as occurring near the end of this process at syngamy, whereas others consider the time of cell membrane fusion when the embryo gives evidence of being a different kind of cell than either oocyte or sperm, to be the beginning of a new human life, since within minutes the new embryo acts to prevent the merger of another sperm with itself and starts the business of self-replication. The single-celled embryo is a very different kind of cell than that of sperm or oocyte, and contains a unique genome that will determine most future bodily features and functions of his or her lifetime.

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole, and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”

It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being.

The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that corroborates that a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created.

As physicians dedicated both to scientific truth and to the Hippocratic tradition, the College values all human lives equally from the moment of conception (fertilization) until natural death. Consistent with its mission to “enable all children to reach their optimal physical and emotional health and well-being,” the College, therefore, opposes active measures that would prematurely end the life of any child at any stage of development from conception to natural death.

Original author: Fred de Miranda, MD, March 2004
Updated: Dr. Patricia Lee June, MD, March 2017
This article was written in 2004...and updated in ... (show quote)


The american collage of pediatrics has long been a thorn in the side of real medical experts.. It was dismissed and yet we see various individuals seeking the jaded information given by the coven of lost individuals who long for the dreams of their night to be real..

You should seek help..

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 16:14:07   #
American Vet
 
permafrost wrote:
I need not prove anything.. simply look up our laws.. or get a jr high kid to do it for you. so difficult always telling you what to do and yet foot dragging and whining keep you so clueless..


You cannot prove what you say.

Ergo - you must be telling a lie.

Put up or shut up, Corn Pop.

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 16:14:31   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
EmilyD wrote:
This article was written in 2004...and updated in 2017...SIX years ago. So, as you can see, it is not a new perspective from the medical community. It is from the American College of Pediatricians: Doctors and researchers who study the birth and care of children. And as time passes, these things will become crystal clear with the advance of technology. They can already physically see with their own eyes an actual sperm meeting an egg. They are studying this action closer and closer and with more and more resolution (detail) from their electron microscopes.

https://acpeds.org/position-statements/when-human-life-begins

WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS

ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.

It has been recognized for millennia that both a paternal (semen) and a maternal contribution are required for the formation of a new human life. The first recorded embryological reports are in the fifth century B.C. books of Hippocrates, who noted from the study of incubating chicken eggs that the nature of the bird can be likened to that of the man. A century later, Aristotle studied the chick and other embryos but incorrectly thought that they arose from a formless mass of semen combined with menstrual blood. In 1677, Hamm and Leeuwenhoek observed spermatozoa under the microscope, but thought they contained miniature humans. Spallanzani demonstrated in 1775 that both oocyte and sperm were necessary. In 1827, von Baer observed oocytes in the ovarian follicle and in the Fallopian tube and blastocysts in the uterus of a dog.

Finally, it was with the advent of the cell theory developed by Schleiden and Schwann in 1839 that it was recognized that the embryo develops from the single-celled zygote. Directly based upon this observation and the knowledge that the single-celled zygote was alive and an independent being, in 1859 the American Medical Association published a statement strongly opposing abortion, particularly commenting on the independence of the zygote during the time between its formation and its implantation.

Although the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in 1965 attempted to redefine “conception” to mean implantation rather than fertilization, medical dictionaries and even English language dictionaries both before and after 1966 define “conception” as synonymous with fertilization (sometimes via the intermediary term of “fecundation”. Moore’s 1974 edition of a human embryology textbook states that development is a continuous process that begins when an ovum is fertilized by a sperm and ends at death. It is a process of change and growth that transforms the zygote, a single cell, into a multicellular adult human being. Moore’s 2008 edition emphasizes that development does not end at birth but extends into early adulthood. Professor Emeritus of Human Embryology of the University of Arizona School of Medicine, Dr. C. Ward Kischer, affirms that “Every human embryologist, worldwide, states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization (conception).” Even authors who philosophically lean towards not attributing the same value to human life at the one-cell stage as they do to later stages of development admit that “As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.” J.T. Eberl goes on to say – and this is really the debate:

“However, what is controversial is whether this genetically unique cell should be considered a human person.”

Nonetheless, one could sensibly make the case that “personhood” can only exist in a living human being and that the division of these two entities is arbitrary at best.

In the last century, and particularly in the last decades, much more detailed observation has been made of the first 24 hours of the life of a human being. During this time the cell membranes of a sperm and ovum fuse and the first cell division occurs. When during this 24 hours does, a new human life begin? Embryologists are less united on this question. This Statement aims to clarify this issue.

During the first 24 hours, once the sperm and egg bind to each other, the membranes of these two cells fuse, creating in less than a second a single hybrid cell: the zygote, or one-cell embryo. To protect his or her bodily integrity, within minutes the zygote initiates changes in its ionic composition, releasing zinc in a spark that induces “egg activation,” first modifying the surrounding zona pellucida blocking further sperm binding to the cell surface. Cooperation between sperm and egg components to achieve replication of DNA, cell division, and growth occurs as maternally and paternally derived factors in the zygote begin interacting with and chemically modifying each other to initiate the final round of meiotic division in the maternally derived nucleus to enable DNA replication.

Finally, the nuclear membranes of the pronuclei break down (called syngamy—technically, pronuclear membranes). No new nuclear membrane encompassing both pronuclei is formed; rather, mitosis occurs and two cells, each with its own identical nucleus encased in a nuclear membrane, are formed.

Furthermore, studies with mice embryos demonstrate that despite the plasticity of which allows disrupted blastomeres to form an entire organism, ordinarily the polarity of the embryo is determined by the site of sperm penetration. (Evidence from other mammalian species suggests that the same may be true in humans, but does not offer definitive proof).

Some embryologists consider fertilization a day-long process and regard the beginning of human life as occurring near the end of this process at syngamy, whereas others consider the time of cell membrane fusion when the embryo gives evidence of being a different kind of cell than either oocyte or sperm, to be the beginning of a new human life, since within minutes the new embryo acts to prevent the merger of another sperm with itself and starts the business of self-replication. The single-celled embryo is a very different kind of cell than that of sperm or oocyte, and contains a unique genome that will determine most future bodily features and functions of his or her lifetime.

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole, and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”

It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being.

The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that corroborates that a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created.

As physicians dedicated both to scientific truth and to the Hippocratic tradition, the College values all human lives equally from the moment of conception (fertilization) until natural death. Consistent with its mission to “enable all children to reach their optimal physical and emotional health and well-being,” the College, therefore, opposes active measures that would prematurely end the life of any child at any stage of development from conception to natural death.

Original author: Fred de Miranda, MD, March 2004
Updated: Dr. Patricia Lee June, MD, March 2017
This article was written in 2004...and updated in ... (show quote)


If I may.. I have a real bit of info rather than the sarcastic earlier post..

the idea that life starts with sex is not any sort of medical conclusion. it is nothing other than a political opinion , no matter who speaks the words..

Reply
Dec 14, 2023 16:15:33   #
American Vet
 
permafrost wrote:
The american collage of pediatrics has long been a thorn in the side of real medical experts.. It was dismissed and yet we see various individuals seeking the jaded information given by the coven of lost individuals who long for the dreams of their night to be real..

You should seek help..


ROTFLMAO

So pediatricians are not 'experts'.......

Reply
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