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Derailment, Toxic Spills and Trump Water
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Feb 27, 2023 20:58:54   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
straightUp wrote:
And? How is that irrational? Or even emotional? And pointless? The POINT is that there are lessons to learn. If you want me to spell it out for you... the disaster reminds us that trains carrying toxic materials can be very dangerous to the American public. They can derail, crash, go boom, and leak toxins all over the place. So when a president says, "let's make them safer", well THAT's a pretty good idea and when a president says well the railroad companies don't want to pay for it and I really want to get on their good side so I'm going to do them a favor and ditch the regulation, well... that's not such a good idea. At least not for the people.

Is any of that making sense to you or are you still seething because I'm still actually trashing Trump?
And? How is that irrational? Or even emotional? An... (show quote)

I live in a small town (1300 people) established in the 1800s as a water stop by the Union Pacific RR, it included a depot and an auxiliary rail yard primarily for track maintenance. The UP spur runs from LA thru Las Vegas and up to Salt Lake City.

For ten miles each direction out of town there is a double track switching system so trains can pass each other, either going different directions or the same direction. The tracks run thru the center of town and there is only one vehicle and pedestrian crossing with the appropriate signals.

Since I am a big fan of railroads, and particularly railroad art (graffiti), I pay attention to trains.

Back in 2019 BC (Before Covid) when the economy was booming, we were seeing a daily average of ten trains coming thru here. They were loaded, heavy trains, often with 8 engines - four up front, two in the middle and two pushing. It's a helluva climb up the canyon from Vegas, so the RR needed some power to pull those loads. It was not uncommon to see two trains rolling thru town. Product was movin', like gang busters.

Then, within 6 months of the election debacle that put a mentally dysfunctional feather merchant in the WH, who for some insane reason immediately lowered the boom on the transportation industry - the airlines, railroads, trucks, buses, oil production, pipelines, ships and maritime ports - we began to see a disturbing trend developing. Things were happening with the trains we had never before seen.

First thing we noticed was a significant decline in the number of trains per day. Sometimes not more than three or four.
Engines - maybe three at most - coming thru pulling long strings of flat cars and not a shipping container in sight.
Engines pulling empty box cars, their doors open or closed, or empty oar and tank cars, all rattling like tin cans in a high wind.
There were huge trains, partially loaded, some cars empty, some full, and flat cars with one or two containers.
The supplies were dwindling.

I was up the canyon, parked by the tracks, having lunch, and waiting for a train. Wanted to get some photos of the RR art. Saw an engine coming in my rear view mirror. Got out my android, fired up the camera, and watched rather astonished as one engine pulling 50 empty box cars rolled by.

But things got worse. Engines broke down. Never before had we seen, not one, but two diesel electric RR engines sitting in the rail yard siding waiting for parts.

One day a train came in from the north (I watched this happen), and as the train rounded the turn into town, the engineer slammed on the brakes. He managed to stop the train about 100 yds short of the RR crossing.
And, there it sat for five straight days, blocking one of the tracks and forcing UP to hustle their asses off to reschedule all trains on this spur.

One day a train came in from the north, and who could have imagined, an engine up front broke down after the train had closed the crossing. They had to decouple the cars blocking the crossing and pull the train apart.
And this one sat there for three days, waiting for parts. Again, UP had to scramble to reschedule the trains.

I talked with the engineer and conductor on one of those broke down trains.
You don't wanna know what they said.
But here's a hint, it was mostly about a freak called "Amtrak Joe".

There's more.

I talked to the gandy dancers, yard workers and track maintenance guys.
Houston, we have a problem!

And, it's gonna get worse.

Still waiting for a train.



Reply
Feb 27, 2023 21:09:03   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
son of witless wrote:
" . I mean, nice try but just because a wheel bearing overheated doesn't make it the direct cause of the accident, especially when that problem was discovered BEFORE they hit the brakes and THEN the train derailed. "

That my friend is an amazing statement. Every single news report I have read has said the over heated wheel bearing was THE cause. Most of those publications are liberal and if there was a snowflake's chance in hell to blame Donald J. Trump they would have done it, and yet none have. I think being THE cause of the derailment makes the hot wheel bearing " the direct cause of the accident. "

" But then again, I never actually said he did. If you look at the OP, I never actually claimed Trump was responsible. I wasn't sure, so I didn't say. "

That may be true, but the implication that Trump was responsible I would say was your main point.

" In other words the bearing heated up but the train was still on the tracks and it wasn't until after they applied the brakes that it derailed. "

That is such a brilliantly wrong headed statement to make, you have rendered me utterly speechless. You are truly a genius in putting together the most ridiculous argument and making it sound plausible. Are you sure you haven't studied under Groucho Marx ? He is my hero for putting nonsense in dialogue and making it sound correct..

I just smacked the side of my head to collect my thoughts on how to proceed. How to answer your magnificent logic ? Well for your statement to have any validity, a hot wheel bearing on it's own should not normally cause a derailment. There are two arguments against this. First, procedure required the train crew to take emergency action once the bearing temperature reached a critical temperature. That would not be procedure if overheated wheel bearings were not extremely dangerous.

Second. https://econstructioncareers.com/news-insight/why-trains-derail

" Trains can derail themselves due mostly to broken axles and broken wheels. How do axles and wheels break? Heat.

If a rotating part gets stuck, or brushes against a part in a way it shouldn’t, it will get hot. As the rest of the heavy train forces this part along, it will get very hot. If it gets too hot it will break. A hot axle or hot wheel can break down, particularly if there are already cracks or other problems in the metal. Once that happens, the wheels can derail and take the train with it. "

Not bad considering I never worked for a railroad, but my grandfather was an engineer and drove a train. I think he would be proud of me right now.
" . I mean, nice try but just because a wheel... (show quote)
It doesn't take rocket science, does it?
During my career as a firefighter, I learned just how mean metals can be when they get hot.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 06:18:13   #
America 1 Loc: South Miami
 
straightUp wrote:
No, it encouraged me to vote for Biden.

Any more stupid questions?


No, you asked all of them.
SOP for you.

Reply
 
 
Feb 28, 2023 06:45:45   #
maureenthannon
 
It encouraged you to vote for Biden. So, you chose to inflict the whole country with a 600% increase in inflation. When Biden took office, inflation was 1.4%. While running for office,, Biden said that he was going to end fossil fuel in America. The first thing you learn in Economics 101 is the LAW OF SUPPLY & DEMAND! Reduce the supply, and the price rises. We all know that when you raise the price of fuel, the price of EVERYTHING goes up. And you voted for Biden to pull the troops out of Afghanistan BEFORE our citizens and before the Afghans who helped us. Biden's own Defense Department told him to take the citizens and the Afghans who helped us first. But Joe wouldn't do that because that's what Trump had planned to do. There may have been a time when Democrats cared about the people. But, since the DEMOCRATS have become the PARTY OF THE MILLIONAIRES & BILLIONAIRES, THAT'S NO LONGER TRUE!

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 06:49:07   #
JR-57 Loc: South Carolina
 
straightUp wrote:
As was typical for the Obama Administration, the concern for public safety led to a regulation that mandates upgraded braking systems on trains carrying toxic material. They basically said, "ya know... these trains currently rely on old-style braking systems that were designed in the 1860's and the problem is that they requires pneumatic pressure to be pushed all the way from the front to the back and that means the the cars in the front start braking before the cars in the rear. Since Obama got smart people to think about these things, it came up that these old braking systems are at risk of causing derailments.

They were also aware of a new, modern type of braking system called ECP (Electronically Controlled Pneumatic) brakes where electronic controls insure all cars a braking at the same time. They're expensive so they decided not to force railroad companies to upgrade ALL their trains but that they SHOULD upgrade the trains used for carrying toxic material, because a derailed train carrying toxic material could be a severe risk to public health and safety.

But then Trump came along and he had different ideas. Trump doesn't know anything about trains, and unlike Obama, he wasn't into having a bunch of experts looking out for problems. What Trump *did* know is that his base LOVES it when he rolls back regulations. Apparently, that's a thing. Just hating regulations, whether they make sense or not.

"Look Melania... Every time I get rid of a regulation, I get likes!"

So, Trump rolled back the mandate on ECP brakes to the cheers of the railroad companies that didn't want to spend the money and the MAGA folks who saw it as one more example of Trump undoing the evil of Obama.

Fast forward to 2023 and sure enough, a train using the Civil War era brakes and carrying a LOT of toxic material derailed in East Palestine, OH. Toxic material ALL over the place! This was exactly what the Obama Administration was trying to avoid and now the toxic material is getting to the local water sources. Not sure if that makes much difference because Trump also rolled back all the clean water acts since the 70s',

But hey... Trump DID show up on the scene with pallets of his very own Trump Water. Or should I say, water from an existing supplier distributed in bottles with Trump labels on them. Nice one Donny.
As was typical for the Obama Administration, the c... (show quote)

“We decided to examine every possible regulatory change made under Trump that could be related to the accident and assess whether it could have made an impact. From our analysis, none of the regulatory changes made during the Trump administration at this point can be cited as contributing to the accident.” | Glenn Kessler, Washington Post, 27 February 2023

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 06:55:56   #
Snoopy
 
Liberty Tree wrote:
More leftist spin lies. The breaking system had nothing to do with the derailment.


An over-heated beating failed . . . True cause of the accident.

Sensors warned of situation but workers could not act in time.

Snoopy

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 06:56:28   #
Snoopy
 
Snoopy wrote:
An over-heated beating failed . . . True cause of the accident.

Sensors warned of situation but workers could not act in time.

Snoopy


Sorry: bearing

Reply
 
 
Feb 28, 2023 07:01:55   #
JR-57 Loc: South Carolina
 
straightUp wrote:
And? How is that irrational? Or even emotional? And pointless? The POINT is that there are lessons to learn. If you want me to spell it out for you... the disaster reminds us that trains carrying toxic materials can be very dangerous to the American public. They can derail, crash, go boom, and leak toxins all over the place. So when a president says, "let's make them safer", well THAT's a pretty good idea and when a president says well the railroad companies don't want to pay for it and I really want to get on their good side so I'm going to do them a favor and ditch the regulation, well... that's not such a good idea. At least not for the people.

Is any of that making sense to you or are you still seething because I'm still actually trashing Trump?
And? How is that irrational? Or even emotional? An... (show quote)

You’re the epitome of an antagonistic narcissist.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 07:04:23   #
America 1 Loc: South Miami
 
Snoopy wrote:
Sorry: bearing


The bearing failed, and straight takes a beating.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 07:05:17   #
JR-57 Loc: South Carolina
 
WEBCO wrote:
You're welcome. I assumed, because you implied it was Trumps fault. I call balls and strikes like I see them, and try to be cordial. I'm an independent who wants the smallest government possible.

I agree. Our federal government has grown far beyond the Founder's original intent. The monster that exists today is public enemy number one.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 07:46:46   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
straightUp wrote:
As was typical for the Obama Administration, the concern for public safety led to a regulation that mandates upgraded braking systems on trains carrying toxic material. They basically said, "ya know... these trains currently rely on old-style braking systems that were designed in the 1860's and the problem is that they requires pneumatic pressure to be pushed all the way from the front to the back and that means the the cars in the front start braking before the cars in the rear. Since Obama got smart people to think about these things, it came up that these old braking systems are at risk of causing derailments.

They were also aware of a new, modern type of braking system called ECP (Electronically Controlled Pneumatic) brakes where electronic controls insure all cars a braking at the same time. They're expensive so they decided not to force railroad companies to upgrade ALL their trains but that they SHOULD upgrade the trains used for carrying toxic material, because a derailed train carrying toxic material could be a severe risk to public health and safety.

But then Trump came along and he had different ideas. Trump doesn't know anything about trains, and unlike Obama, he wasn't into having a bunch of experts looking out for problems. What Trump *did* know is that his base LOVES it when he rolls back regulations. Apparently, that's a thing. Just hating regulations, whether they make sense or not.

"Look Melania... Every time I get rid of a regulation, I get likes!"

So, Trump rolled back the mandate on ECP brakes to the cheers of the railroad companies that didn't want to spend the money and the MAGA folks who saw it as one more example of Trump undoing the evil of Obama.

Fast forward to 2023 and sure enough, a train using the Civil War era brakes and carrying a LOT of toxic material derailed in East Palestine, OH. Toxic material ALL over the place! This was exactly what the Obama Administration was trying to avoid and now the toxic material is getting to the local water sources. Not sure if that makes much difference because Trump also rolled back all the clean water acts since the 70s',

But hey... Trump DID show up on the scene with pallets of his very own Trump Water. Or should I say, water from an existing supplier distributed in bottles with Trump labels on them. Nice one Donny.
As was typical for the Obama Administration, the c... (show quote)


I'm surprised at you. You usually do better research than that. The brakes had NOTHING to do with the train derailment, as per the Biden nominated and Democrat controlled Congress confirmed head of the NTSB.

https://reason.com/2023/02/24/new-ntsb-report-highlights-useless-premature-regulatory-push-after-east-palestine-derailment/

The latest report from safety officials investigating the freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, shows that the left and right's post-accident regulatory proposals likely would have done nothing to prevent the crash. A preliminary report issued by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) on Thursday suggests a mechanical issue with an overheated wheel bearing was to blame for the accident.

The report says that track sensors detected a wheel bearing on the Norfolk Southern train was heating up rapidly as it traveled through eastern Ohio. When a sensor alerted the crew that the bearing's temperature hit 253 degrees above the ambient temperature, they brought the train to a halt to inspect the problem.

During their braking procedure, the train's automatic brakes were triggered—which likely meant the train had already derailed by the time the crew was bringing it to a stop.

This is just a preliminary report. It doesn't identify what caused the train's wheel bearing to overheat in the first place. But it does suggest that most of the post-accident commentary has been disconnected from the actual causes of the accident.

Prior to the release of the NTSB report, the White House and the media have been eager to pin the cause of the disaster on various deregulatory moves made by the Trump administration.

In particular, they've pointed to the Trump administration's revocation of an Obama-era rule that would have required Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes on all trains carrying exclusively high-flammable cargo.

The revocation of that rule wasn't just an initiative of the Trump administration, however. The 2015 FAST Act required the administration to perform a cost-benefit analysis of requiring ECP brakes, and not go forward with the mandate if it didn't pass that cost-benefit analysis. A congressional watchdog report in 2016 found that the Obama administration had implemented its ECP mandate without doing a thorough enough analysis of the technology's costs and performance.

That's all kind of beside the point, however. Even if the ECP rule had been in place, it wouldn't have applied to the train that derailed in East Palestine. That train was carrying mixed cargo without enough high-flammable cargo-containing cars to trigger the old ECP rule.

On February 16, NTSB director Jennifer Homendy said people blaming the accident on the repeal of the ECP rule were spreading "misinformation."


Nice one, Donny? How about you screwed the Pooch, StraightUp?

Reply
 
 
Feb 28, 2023 07:51:28   #
JR-57 Loc: South Carolina
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
I'm surprised at you. You usually do better research than that. The brakes had NOTHING to do with the train derailment, as per the Biden nominated and Democrat controlled Congress confirmed head of the NTSB.

https://reason.com/2023/02/24/new-ntsb-report-highlights-useless-premature-regulatory-push-after-east-palestine-derailment/

The latest report from safety officials investigating the freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, shows that the left and right's post-accident regulatory proposals likely would have done nothing to prevent the crash. A preliminary report issued by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) on Thursday suggests a mechanical issue with an overheated wheel bearing was to blame for the accident.

The report says that track sensors detected a wheel bearing on the Norfolk Southern train was heating up rapidly as it traveled through eastern Ohio. When a sensor alerted the crew that the bearing's temperature hit 253 degrees above the ambient temperature, they brought the train to a halt to inspect the problem.

During their braking procedure, the train's automatic brakes were triggered—which likely meant the train had already derailed by the time the crew was bringing it to a stop.

This is just a preliminary report. It doesn't identify what caused the train's wheel bearing to overheat in the first place. But it does suggest that most of the post-accident commentary has been disconnected from the actual causes of the accident.

Prior to the release of the NTSB report, the White House and the media have been eager to pin the cause of the disaster on various deregulatory moves made by the Trump administration.

In particular, they've pointed to the Trump administration's revocation of an Obama-era rule that would have required Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes on all trains carrying exclusively high-flammable cargo.

The revocation of that rule wasn't just an initiative of the Trump administration, however. The 2015 FAST Act required the administration to perform a cost-benefit analysis of requiring ECP brakes, and not go forward with the mandate if it didn't pass that cost-benefit analysis. A congressional watchdog report in 2016 found that the Obama administration had implemented its ECP mandate without doing a thorough enough analysis of the technology's costs and performance.

That's all kind of beside the point, however. Even if the ECP rule had been in place, it wouldn't have applied to the train that derailed in East Palestine. That train was carrying mixed cargo without enough high-flammable cargo-containing cars to trigger the old ECP rule.

On February 16, NTSB director Jennifer Homendy said people blaming the accident on the repeal of the ECP rule were spreading "misinformation."


Nice one, Donny? How about you screwed the Pooch, StraightUp?
I'm surprised at you. You usually do better resear... (show quote)

The antagonistic narcissist will never admit it. He’ll simply spin a response to remind us what a genius he is. Deep down he knows it. His writing style always leaves an out.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 07:54:53   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
straightUp wrote:
More spin from the rabid right. ;)

There is a hopeful theory that the ECP brakes would not have made a difference. That's what you desperate MAGA muffins are clinging to. But there is no way to prove that. Likewise, there is no way to prove that they WOULD have made a difference, but the point is Obama decreased the risk of disaster by mandating better brakes and Trump increased it by being an idiot and rolling back the regulation.

Very similar situation to when Trump defunded and dismantled Obama's safeguards against future pandemics and then a pandemic DID hit us and a million Americans died from it. We don't know exactly what the impact Obama's safeguards against pandemics would have had but we DO know that Obama was ahead of the game and Trump was... well, reckless to say the least.
More spin from the rabid right. ;) br br There is... (show quote)


"More spin?" I don't see any cites or sources for your own left wing opinions.
I just refuted your post, using a verbatim statement, with cite, from the head of the NTSB. Is it your contention that your half-baked, unsupported opinion is more valid than that of the person who heads up the NTSB? Oh, and by the way, your boy Obama was SUCH an environmentalist, which explains how the Animas River spill, headed up by the Obama EPA, was such a resounding success, with tens of thousands of square miles of aquifer poisoned. I'm interested to see how you try and blame Trump for that one.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 08:00:21   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
straightUp wrote:
So then you're back to poisoning the water then? Nice to know all you care about is your own property rights and that you don't care if your killing people.


The regulation would not have applied to that train whether or not it was rolled back, because of the cargo the train was carrying. The original regulation, untouched by your favorite woolly boogerman, Trump, would not have made One. Fucking. Bit. Of. Difference. For someone as smart as you think you are, you can be incredibly obtuse when your parochial little worldview is threatened by reality.

Reply
Feb 28, 2023 08:00:50   #
EmilyD
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
I'm surprised at you. You usually do better research than that. The brakes had NOTHING to do with the train derailment, as per the Biden nominated and Democrat controlled Congress confirmed head of the NTSB.

https://reason.com/2023/02/24/new-ntsb-report-highlights-useless-premature-regulatory-push-after-east-palestine-derailment/

The latest report from safety officials investigating the freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, shows that the left and right's post-accident regulatory proposals likely would have done nothing to prevent the crash. A preliminary report issued by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) on Thursday suggests a mechanical issue with an overheated wheel bearing was to blame for the accident.

The report says that track sensors detected a wheel bearing on the Norfolk Southern train was heating up rapidly as it traveled through eastern Ohio. When a sensor alerted the crew that the bearing's temperature hit 253 degrees above the ambient temperature, they brought the train to a halt to inspect the problem.

During their braking procedure, the train's automatic brakes were triggered—which likely meant the train had already derailed by the time the crew was bringing it to a stop.

This is just a preliminary report. It doesn't identify what caused the train's wheel bearing to overheat in the first place. But it does suggest that most of the post-accident commentary has been disconnected from the actual causes of the accident.

Prior to the release of the NTSB report, the White House and the media have been eager to pin the cause of the disaster on various deregulatory moves made by the Trump administration.

In particular, they've pointed to the Trump administration's revocation of an Obama-era rule that would have required Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes on all trains carrying exclusively high-flammable cargo.

The revocation of that rule wasn't just an initiative of the Trump administration, however. The 2015 FAST Act required the administration to perform a cost-benefit analysis of requiring ECP brakes, and not go forward with the mandate if it didn't pass that cost-benefit analysis. A congressional watchdog report in 2016 found that the Obama administration had implemented its ECP mandate without doing a thorough enough analysis of the technology's costs and performance.

That's all kind of beside the point, however. Even if the ECP rule had been in place, it wouldn't have applied to the train that derailed in East Palestine. That train was carrying mixed cargo without enough high-flammable cargo-containing cars to trigger the old ECP rule.

On February 16, NTSB director Jennifer Homendy said people blaming the accident on the repeal of the ECP rule were spreading "misinformation."


Nice one, Donny? How about you screwed the Pooch, StraightUp?
I'm surprised at you. You usually do better resear... (show quote)

StraightUp was finally forced to admit this after several people proved to her she was wrong.

Watch her crow about how wonderful she was to do that......(when she had no choice)!

Reply
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