Is Mary Mother of God: Is it Idolatry or simply a Biblical Notion ? . . . What Luther and Calvin Said !
Sep 16, 2018 00:51:17 #
09/15/2018 Mary Mother of God: Is it Idolatry or a Biblical Notion ?
Dave Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/10/mary-mother-of-god-idolatry-or-biblical.html
* * * * *
A few years back I ran across a woman online who used to be a Baptist and had become a Catholic.
She expressed perfectly how the term “Mother of God” is so vastly misunderstood by a good portion of Protestants, in describing how she used to think:
I felt that I was saying that a human being born at a certain time in history (a creature) had “created.”
Had given life to, God Himself, Who had not previously existed.
Such an outrageous, blasphemous thing was, of course, never the intent of the phrase or title (which goes back to the early Church fathers) In the first place.
Given these rather extraordinary misperceptions, it’s always good to clarify.
“Mary is the mother of God the Son.”
No Christian can argue with that.
If they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son), then they deny that Jesus is God, which they don’t want to do.
If, on the other hand, they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son).
Then they deny the virgin birth, and in effect, also the incarnation, which they don’t want to do, either.
This resolves the problem altogether.
The original Greek term Theotokos (literally, “God-bearer”) isn’t in Scripture, but it doesn’t have to be, since Scripture teaches that:
1. Jesus is God, many biblical proofs.
Jn 1:1; Col 2:9.
2. Mary is His true mother.
Is 7:14; Mt 1:16,18; 2:11, 13, 20; 12:46; Lk 1:31, 35, 43; Jn 1:15; 2:1; Gal 4:4.
Ergo, “Mary is the Mother of God” [the Son].
Another, less direct, but equally effective way of arguing the point is noting Elizabeth’s exclamation to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
“And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1:43
The Greek word for “Lord” here (as usually in the New Testament) is Kurios.
It’s widely applied both to God the Father and to Jesus.
Since they are both “Lord” and God” and equal as the Father and Son in the Holy Trinity.
In fact, in a single passage, both the Father and the Son are called “Lord” (Kurios):
Romans 10:9-13
Because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.
The same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
cf. also Mt 22:41-45; Mk 12:36-37; Lk 20:42-44; Acts 2:34
Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32:
“And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered”
Thus, the New Testament applies Old Testament passages about God directly to Jesus, since He is God, and He and His Father are one.
Jn 10:30
Therefore, in calling Mary “mother of my Lord,” Elizabeth is at the same time calling her the “mother of God.”
It takes a little digging into Scripture to discover that, but it’s plain and definite biblical teaching.
Part of the massive biblical evidence of the divinity or deity of Jesus Christ.
John Calvin, the most influential early Protestant leader after Martin Luther, wrote about this passage:
She [Elizabeth] calls Mary the mother of her Lord This denotes a unity of person in the two natures of Christ;
As if she had said, that he who was begotten a mortal man in the womb of Mary is, at the same time, the eternal God.
Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, comment under,
Luke 1:43
Martin Luther also made many affirming statements about Theotokos.
Here are two of the most striking ones:
a. We, too, know very well that Christ did not derive his deity from Mary; But it does not follow that it must, therefore, be false to say.
“God was born of Mary” and “God is Mary’s Son” and “Mary is God’s mother.”
b. Mary is the true, natural mother of the child called Jesus Christ, and the true-mother and bearer of God . . .
Mary suckled God, rocked God, made broth and soup for God.
For God and man are one Person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two persons . . .
Just as your son is not two sons . . .
Even though he has two natures, body and soul.
Body from you, soul from God alone.
On the Councils and the Church, 1539
On The Councils and The Church – Martin Luther – An Aussie Brekkie
www.anaussiebrekkie.com/resources/councils-church
Dave Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/10/mary-mother-of-god-idolatry-or-biblical.html
* * * * *
A few years back I ran across a woman online who used to be a Baptist and had become a Catholic.
She expressed perfectly how the term “Mother of God” is so vastly misunderstood by a good portion of Protestants, in describing how she used to think:
I felt that I was saying that a human being born at a certain time in history (a creature) had “created.”
Had given life to, God Himself, Who had not previously existed.
Such an outrageous, blasphemous thing was, of course, never the intent of the phrase or title (which goes back to the early Church fathers) In the first place.
Given these rather extraordinary misperceptions, it’s always good to clarify.
“Mary is the mother of God the Son.”
No Christian can argue with that.
If they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son), then they deny that Jesus is God, which they don’t want to do.
If, on the other hand, they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son).
Then they deny the virgin birth, and in effect, also the incarnation, which they don’t want to do, either.
This resolves the problem altogether.
The original Greek term Theotokos (literally, “God-bearer”) isn’t in Scripture, but it doesn’t have to be, since Scripture teaches that:
1. Jesus is God, many biblical proofs.
Jn 1:1; Col 2:9.
2. Mary is His true mother.
Is 7:14; Mt 1:16,18; 2:11, 13, 20; 12:46; Lk 1:31, 35, 43; Jn 1:15; 2:1; Gal 4:4.
Ergo, “Mary is the Mother of God” [the Son].
Another, less direct, but equally effective way of arguing the point is noting Elizabeth’s exclamation to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
“And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1:43
The Greek word for “Lord” here (as usually in the New Testament) is Kurios.
It’s widely applied both to God the Father and to Jesus.
Since they are both “Lord” and God” and equal as the Father and Son in the Holy Trinity.
In fact, in a single passage, both the Father and the Son are called “Lord” (Kurios):
Romans 10:9-13
Because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.
The same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
cf. also Mt 22:41-45; Mk 12:36-37; Lk 20:42-44; Acts 2:34
Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32:
“And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered”
Thus, the New Testament applies Old Testament passages about God directly to Jesus, since He is God, and He and His Father are one.
Jn 10:30
Therefore, in calling Mary “mother of my Lord,” Elizabeth is at the same time calling her the “mother of God.”
It takes a little digging into Scripture to discover that, but it’s plain and definite biblical teaching.
Part of the massive biblical evidence of the divinity or deity of Jesus Christ.
John Calvin, the most influential early Protestant leader after Martin Luther, wrote about this passage:
She [Elizabeth] calls Mary the mother of her Lord This denotes a unity of person in the two natures of Christ;
As if she had said, that he who was begotten a mortal man in the womb of Mary is, at the same time, the eternal God.
Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, comment under,
Luke 1:43
Martin Luther also made many affirming statements about Theotokos.
Here are two of the most striking ones:
a. We, too, know very well that Christ did not derive his deity from Mary; But it does not follow that it must, therefore, be false to say.
“God was born of Mary” and “God is Mary’s Son” and “Mary is God’s mother.”
b. Mary is the true, natural mother of the child called Jesus Christ, and the true-mother and bearer of God . . .
Mary suckled God, rocked God, made broth and soup for God.
For God and man are one Person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two persons . . .
Just as your son is not two sons . . .
Even though he has two natures, body and soul.
Body from you, soul from God alone.
On the Councils and the Church, 1539
On The Councils and The Church – Martin Luther – An Aussie Brekkie
www.anaussiebrekkie.com/resources/councils-church
Nov 12, 2018 13:56:14 #
No Christian disputes that Mary was the mother of God. What IS in dispute is that she be worshiped. That is idolatry.
Deut. 5:7 "you shall have no other gods before me"
God is perfect. The only way to Him is through Christ - "No one can come to the Father except through me" John 14:6. That is crystal clear. To pray to anything except the Trinity is not Biblical. It is an invention of man.
Deut. 5:7 "you shall have no other gods before me"
God is perfect. The only way to Him is through Christ - "No one can come to the Father except through me" John 14:6. That is crystal clear. To pray to anything except the Trinity is not Biblical. It is an invention of man.
Nov 12, 2018 22:54:39 #
Rose45,
Try saving youreself, I’m already saved and have a personal relation with God and His Church.
Try getting in touch with you’re, mind, body and soul when loving God and not with your Non-Catholic intellectual thoughts.
Try learning prayerful thoughts, meditative thoughts on Our Lord Jesus Christ his life, death, resurrection and His Ascension to heaven.
First of all, I believe that you are religiously confused, or ignorantly stupid ? I’m not sure if it is both.
Did you know Catholics are Christians ! The First Christians ?
Get your religious Non-Catholic bigoted prejudicial facts and words correct !
#1. Firstly, Catholics only venerate Mary. The first saint which is Mary, the immaculate conception. The second saint is John the baptist, the third is saint Steven etc. . . .
#2. Secondly Catholics only worship, God the Father, God the Son-Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit. By the way we call this the Holy Trinity. FYI
#3. Thirdly do your even know what idolatry even is ?
Please, . . . you know nothing about Old Testament idolatry, and the significance of New Testament religious icons, paintings, stain glass and religious statues, etc.
They have been in use for over 1,987 years in Christianity, from the Apostles, to the early church fathers and the universal-Church teachingto this day.
They are used as expression of art work and also used for teaching methods. Since most people could not read or write in ancient times and even up to the 20th century.
How did you get so confused in Your Non-Catholic religious understanding, it is totally absolutely astounding. How, Can you be this religiously ignorant ! ! !
Rose45, Your religiously incomplete, and have a limited biblical self-interpreting lame-butt non-Catholic opinions. Who also thinks she is a religious knows it all.
Do you think this is the first time I’ve run into your kind ? Youre just a Non-anti-Catholic amoeba on the OPP religious forum. A Religious TROLL ! ! !
Trying to score Non-catholic religious points. Boring ! ! !
Next time try to get religiously creative in your next anti-Catholic attacks. You’re totally boring !
Ho-hum, you thought you could get a rise from me ?
You’re just ignorant and confused, Non-Catholic trying to argue and pick a fight because you heard and learned inaccurate facts, and you’re going to teach Catholics a lesson. How Nobel of you !
You Think you’re more holy and more knowledgeable than other people. Get a life will you ?
You are incapable of religious independent thinking for yourself, look up the words “Worship,” “Venerate, and Idolatry, learn their word context and word usage. Learn the true difference, definition between these three words.
You can’t be this religiously ignorant, biased, bigoted and personally Prejudicial, can you ?
I’m just laughing at your poor lack of Catholic understanding and negative Christian word clarity.
Did you learn this from Jack Chick ? or was this pass along from other hateful individuals as you’re self. ? Shameful !
You have to be sick in the head, get some religious counciling, better yet Take mass quantities of psychotropic drugs and then go back to childhood Sunday school.
And try to re-learn your religious history and what the context of religious words really mean.
Who made you the right hand of God ?
Who made you the grand Non-Catholic inquisitor on the OPP religious forum ?
You’re probably not even a Christian, you’re probably an atheist or agnostic non-religious individual.
Rose45, the only invention of man in the Bible is sola Scriptura.
Find sola Scriptura, in the Holy Bible.
You're so smart, prove it scripturally ?
Another one bites the dust.
Dic110
quote=Rose42]
No Christian disputes that Mary was the mother of God. What IS in dispute is that she be worshiped. That is idolatry.
Deut. 5:7 "you shall have no other gods before me"
God is perfect. The only way to Him is through Christ - "No one can come to the Father except through me" John 14:6. That is crystal clear. To pray to anything except the Trinity is not Biblical. It is an invention of man.[/quote]
Try saving youreself, I’m already saved and have a personal relation with God and His Church.
Try getting in touch with you’re, mind, body and soul when loving God and not with your Non-Catholic intellectual thoughts.
Try learning prayerful thoughts, meditative thoughts on Our Lord Jesus Christ his life, death, resurrection and His Ascension to heaven.
First of all, I believe that you are religiously confused, or ignorantly stupid ? I’m not sure if it is both.
Did you know Catholics are Christians ! The First Christians ?
Get your religious Non-Catholic bigoted prejudicial facts and words correct !
#1. Firstly, Catholics only venerate Mary. The first saint which is Mary, the immaculate conception. The second saint is John the baptist, the third is saint Steven etc. . . .
#2. Secondly Catholics only worship, God the Father, God the Son-Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit. By the way we call this the Holy Trinity. FYI
#3. Thirdly do your even know what idolatry even is ?
Please, . . . you know nothing about Old Testament idolatry, and the significance of New Testament religious icons, paintings, stain glass and religious statues, etc.
They have been in use for over 1,987 years in Christianity, from the Apostles, to the early church fathers and the universal-Church teachingto this day.
They are used as expression of art work and also used for teaching methods. Since most people could not read or write in ancient times and even up to the 20th century.
How did you get so confused in Your Non-Catholic religious understanding, it is totally absolutely astounding. How, Can you be this religiously ignorant ! ! !
Rose45, Your religiously incomplete, and have a limited biblical self-interpreting lame-butt non-Catholic opinions. Who also thinks she is a religious knows it all.
Do you think this is the first time I’ve run into your kind ? Youre just a Non-anti-Catholic amoeba on the OPP religious forum. A Religious TROLL ! ! !
Trying to score Non-catholic religious points. Boring ! ! !
Next time try to get religiously creative in your next anti-Catholic attacks. You’re totally boring !
Ho-hum, you thought you could get a rise from me ?
You’re just ignorant and confused, Non-Catholic trying to argue and pick a fight because you heard and learned inaccurate facts, and you’re going to teach Catholics a lesson. How Nobel of you !
You Think you’re more holy and more knowledgeable than other people. Get a life will you ?
You are incapable of religious independent thinking for yourself, look up the words “Worship,” “Venerate, and Idolatry, learn their word context and word usage. Learn the true difference, definition between these three words.
You can’t be this religiously ignorant, biased, bigoted and personally Prejudicial, can you ?
I’m just laughing at your poor lack of Catholic understanding and negative Christian word clarity.
Did you learn this from Jack Chick ? or was this pass along from other hateful individuals as you’re self. ? Shameful !
You have to be sick in the head, get some religious counciling, better yet Take mass quantities of psychotropic drugs and then go back to childhood Sunday school.
And try to re-learn your religious history and what the context of religious words really mean.
Who made you the right hand of God ?
Who made you the grand Non-Catholic inquisitor on the OPP religious forum ?
You’re probably not even a Christian, you’re probably an atheist or agnostic non-religious individual.
Rose45, the only invention of man in the Bible is sola Scriptura.
Find sola Scriptura, in the Holy Bible.
You're so smart, prove it scripturally ?
Another one bites the dust.
Dic110
quote=Rose42]
No Christian disputes that Mary was the mother of God. What IS in dispute is that she be worshiped. That is idolatry.
Deut. 5:7 "you shall have no other gods before me"
God is perfect. The only way to Him is through Christ - "No one can come to the Father except through me" John 14:6. That is crystal clear. To pray to anything except the Trinity is not Biblical. It is an invention of man.[/quote]
Nov 13, 2018 09:38:36 #
Doc110 wrote:
Rose45, Your religiously incomplete, and have a limited biblical self-interpreting lame-butt non-Catholic opinions. Who also thinks she is a religious knows it all.
Do you think this is the first time I’ve run into your kind ? Youre just a Non-anti-Catholic amoeba on the OPP religious forum. A Religious TROLL ! ! !
Rose45, Your religiously incomplete, and have a limited biblical self-interpreting lame-butt non-Catholic opinions. Who also thinks she is a religious knows it all.
Do you think this is the first time I’ve run into your kind ? Youre just a Non-anti-Catholic amoeba on the OPP religious forum. A Religious TROLL ! ! !
Matthew 12:4 "...for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". - This is also in the Catholic version of the Bible.
I am far from knowing it all but what I do know is the Bible is perfect and man can only take away from that perfection.
There is no Biblical basis for Mary being free from sin. There is no Biblical basis for praying to her or making any other mortal man an idol.
There are multiple verses in the Bible that attest to it's perfection and sufficiency. Psalm 19 is a wonderful example.
Catholic doctrine places the words of man above the word of God.
Nov 13, 2018 22:25:46 #
Rose42,
You’re absolutely wrong once again you don’t know what you’re talking about all your produce is BS compost.
Try thinking for once in your life about the Bible scripture and in context of what it actually says.
How many more times do I have to prove you wrong you really should leave this thread because you’re making it butt-head out of yourself.
Re-read The Gospel of Luke.
When the Archangel Gabriel in the visitation discourse, speaks to Mary and says “Hail, full of Grace.”
There is no one else in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that has been given the gift of grace, yes Mary is without sin and his sinless and is full of Grace . . .
God the father God the Holy Spirit would never allow, his only begotten son Jesus to be placed in a womb of a sinful woman or to have a sinful woman to raise God his son Jesus.
Rose42, Your way, and you’re thinking is not of God’s way. And is not as it has been recorded in the Bible.
Why are you shaming God, in his infinite mercy his love and why are you saying that Jesus’s mother Mary was sinful, you can’t prove this biblically or scripturally.
Your information is just a lie end it is not biblical. It is your non-Catholic self interpretation church theology.
Do you even have the ability to even fathom what it could be like to be full of grace, that God bestowed upon Mary the Mother of God.
Great, rose now you have to throw out the Idol word once again.
I thought we cleared up the words Worship, veneration and idolatry.
It’s jest your lame-butt reaction when you don’t have anything else to say and then you go negative to Catholics.
You really are a piece of work, vile and full of Non-Catholic hatred, religious bigotry and personal prejudices.
You shine like the ugly religious beacon that you are.
Strike Three your outa here.
Doc110
quote=Rose42]
Matthew 12:4 "...for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". - This is also in the Catholic version of the Bible.
I am far from knowing it all but what I do know is the Bible is perfect and man can only take away from that perfection.
There is no Biblical basis for Mary being free from sin. There is no Biblical basis for praying to her or making any other mortal man an idol.
There are multiple verses in the Bible that attest to it's perfection and sufficiency. Psalm 19 is a wonderful example.
Catholic doctrine places the words of man above the word of God.[/quote]
You’re absolutely wrong once again you don’t know what you’re talking about all your produce is BS compost.
Try thinking for once in your life about the Bible scripture and in context of what it actually says.
How many more times do I have to prove you wrong you really should leave this thread because you’re making it butt-head out of yourself.
Re-read The Gospel of Luke.
When the Archangel Gabriel in the visitation discourse, speaks to Mary and says “Hail, full of Grace.”
There is no one else in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that has been given the gift of grace, yes Mary is without sin and his sinless and is full of Grace . . .
God the father God the Holy Spirit would never allow, his only begotten son Jesus to be placed in a womb of a sinful woman or to have a sinful woman to raise God his son Jesus.
Rose42, Your way, and you’re thinking is not of God’s way. And is not as it has been recorded in the Bible.
Why are you shaming God, in his infinite mercy his love and why are you saying that Jesus’s mother Mary was sinful, you can’t prove this biblically or scripturally.
Your information is just a lie end it is not biblical. It is your non-Catholic self interpretation church theology.
Do you even have the ability to even fathom what it could be like to be full of grace, that God bestowed upon Mary the Mother of God.
Great, rose now you have to throw out the Idol word once again.
I thought we cleared up the words Worship, veneration and idolatry.
It’s jest your lame-butt reaction when you don’t have anything else to say and then you go negative to Catholics.
You really are a piece of work, vile and full of Non-Catholic hatred, religious bigotry and personal prejudices.
You shine like the ugly religious beacon that you are.
Strike Three your outa here.
Doc110
quote=Rose42]
Matthew 12:4 "...for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". - This is also in the Catholic version of the Bible.
I am far from knowing it all but what I do know is the Bible is perfect and man can only take away from that perfection.
There is no Biblical basis for Mary being free from sin. There is no Biblical basis for praying to her or making any other mortal man an idol.
There are multiple verses in the Bible that attest to it's perfection and sufficiency. Psalm 19 is a wonderful example.
Catholic doctrine places the words of man above the word of God.[/quote]
Nov 19, 2018 11:37:49 #
Doc110 wrote:
Rose42,
When the Archangel Gabriel in the visitation discourse, speaks to Mary and says “Hail, full of Grace.”
There is no one else in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that has been given the gift of grace, yes Mary is without sin and his sinless and is full of Grace . . .
When the Archangel Gabriel in the visitation discourse, speaks to Mary and says “Hail, full of Grace.”
There is no one else in the Bible Old Testament or New Testament that has been given the gift of grace, yes Mary is without sin and his sinless and is full of Grace . . .
You sure about that? How do you explain these two verses? There are many more. Is the word of God then flawed by saying we receive grace?
2 Cor 12:8-9 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Quote:
God the father God the Holy Spirit would never allow, his only begotten son Jesus to be placed in a womb of a sinful woman or to have a sinful woman to raise God his son Jesus.
He wouldn't? But he did. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary was without sin. Nowhere. That is man's invention.
Quote:
Why are you shaming God, in his infinite mercy his love and why are you saying that Jesus’s mother Mary was sinful, you can’t prove this biblically or scripturally.
Yet you fail to prove she was without sin. By Catholic reasoning since she received grace then since we do too when we are saved (according to God's word) then we must be sinless too. Which of course isn't true.
Since no sinless person needs a savior why then did Mary say this after Gabriel visited her?
Luke 1:46-47 "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Nov 19, 2018 19:10:53 #
Rose42,
Are you mentally unstable ?
These passages are addressed to Saint Paul.
And are not addressed to Mary the Mother of God. She has revived all the grace from God. Hail Full of Grace.
You are being manipulative in you’re bible verse selection.
And then are trying to synthesize to two texts to Paul and then try the same logic to Mary the Mother of God.
Why are you this foolish and evil at the same time.
You’re a Protestant paradox.
That’s why I asked you the question are you mentally unstable. ?
Are you mentally unstable ?
These passages are addressed to Saint Paul.
And are not addressed to Mary the Mother of God. She has revived all the grace from God. Hail Full of Grace.
You are being manipulative in you’re bible verse selection.
And then are trying to synthesize to two texts to Paul and then try the same logic to Mary the Mother of God.
Why are you this foolish and evil at the same time.
You’re a Protestant paradox.
That’s why I asked you the question are you mentally unstable. ?
Rose42 wrote:
Yet you fail to prove she was without sin. By Catholic reasoning since she received grace then since we do too when we are saved (according to God's word) then we must be sinless too. Which of course isn't true.
Since no sinless person needs a savior why then did Mary say this after Gabriel visited her?
Luke 1:46-47 "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Since no sinless person needs a savior why then did Mary say this after Gabriel visited her?
Luke 1:46-47 "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Nov 19, 2018 19:32:46 #
Doc110 wrote:
Rose42,
Are you mentally unstable ?
Are you mentally unstable ?
I have never personally attacked you yet you continually personally attack me. Why is that?
Quote:
These passages are addressed to Saint Paul.
No, only ONE is. The other is this -
Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Quote:
And are not addressed to Mary the Mother of God. She has revived all the grace from God. Hail Full of Grace.
ALL who are saved are justified by God's grace. Including Mary. Are you saying He only gives partial grace to the rest of us? If so, that's not Biblical either. How can God give partial grace?
Quote:
You are being manipulative in you’re bible verse selection.
Not at all. You are twisting Mary into something she never was. Someone who is sinless has no need of a savior. Mary said "my spirit rejoices in God my Savior".
You either trust and believe God's word or you don't. That's what it boils down to.
Quote:
And then are trying to synthesize to two texts to Paul and then try the same logic to Mary the Mother of God.
Here is the verse again. It is quite clearly not to Paul -
Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Nov 19, 2018 20:24:56 #
Rose42
Why are you so dam argumentative?
I speak like a man, not with your touchy-feelings of a woman.
I’m direct and to the point, like a nazarene with no guile within me.
I asked if you were mentally unstable?
It’s a simple question, answer it.
Yes or No ?
Stop reading into words and meaning like women always try and do. Like TexaCan does.
I don’t play that kind of woman’s Game here on the OPP religious forum.
You stand and die by you’re facts. Got it ?
These passages are addressed are to Saint Paul.
And are not addressed to Mary the Mother of God. She has revived all the grace from God.
Hail Full of Grace, Mary was sinless, why would God put his Son in a sinful body and womb, and be raised by sinful parents ?
Do you think God did a little searching for the right couple, it’s kinda like Holy Adoption.
But Mary said Yes to God.
You are being manipulative in you’re bible verse selection.
And then are trying to synthesize to two texts to Paul and then try the same logic to Mary the Mother of God.
Why are you this foolish and evil at the same time.
You’re a parodox ?
As Paul is asking this question, who is he asking this question to.
Clearly it is not Mary the Mother of God, who is full of Gods graces.
Do you she why I’m going in another direction and why I reject you assumption and that Mary does applies to this passage.
Think about rose, we earn grace a. Little bit at a time, we try and achieve complete grace as Mary was given Full of Grace.
Now that’s a Challenge . . . for all man and womankind.
I fully believe and trust in the word of God.
I just donte believe in your dishonesty and your line of questions and personal attacks on my Catholic beliefs.
I’ve read now a little bit of you’re church doctrines and issues. The people you aspoused to have descended from have all fallen away to the dust of time.
This was only reciently revived in the early AD 1860s. So what your church has about 160 years in existence.
Big deal.
My True Church founded by Jesus Christ has 1,987 years of Christian fullness, that you’re simplistic Church doesn’t have.
And once again I decline your interpretation of holy scripture and how you apply this bible passage to Mary the Mother of God.
I will always give her praise and complete honor and venerate her.
She is the first saint the theotokos who was assumed body and soul to heaven.
As I said Mary the first saints is a hard act to follow and we can only ask her help as Jesus’s can also help us on our journey through life and our resurrection to be with our Lord and Savior. Amen.
And that’s why I asked you if your mentally unstable. ?
[quote=Rose42]
Here is the verse again.
It is quite clearly not to Paul -
Romans 3:23-24
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Why are you so dam argumentative?
I speak like a man, not with your touchy-feelings of a woman.
I’m direct and to the point, like a nazarene with no guile within me.
I asked if you were mentally unstable?
It’s a simple question, answer it.
Yes or No ?
Stop reading into words and meaning like women always try and do. Like TexaCan does.
I don’t play that kind of woman’s Game here on the OPP religious forum.
You stand and die by you’re facts. Got it ?
These passages are addressed are to Saint Paul.
And are not addressed to Mary the Mother of God. She has revived all the grace from God.
Hail Full of Grace, Mary was sinless, why would God put his Son in a sinful body and womb, and be raised by sinful parents ?
Do you think God did a little searching for the right couple, it’s kinda like Holy Adoption.
But Mary said Yes to God.
You are being manipulative in you’re bible verse selection.
And then are trying to synthesize to two texts to Paul and then try the same logic to Mary the Mother of God.
Why are you this foolish and evil at the same time.
You’re a parodox ?
As Paul is asking this question, who is he asking this question to.
Clearly it is not Mary the Mother of God, who is full of Gods graces.
Do you she why I’m going in another direction and why I reject you assumption and that Mary does applies to this passage.
Think about rose, we earn grace a. Little bit at a time, we try and achieve complete grace as Mary was given Full of Grace.
Now that’s a Challenge . . . for all man and womankind.
I fully believe and trust in the word of God.
I just donte believe in your dishonesty and your line of questions and personal attacks on my Catholic beliefs.
I’ve read now a little bit of you’re church doctrines and issues. The people you aspoused to have descended from have all fallen away to the dust of time.
This was only reciently revived in the early AD 1860s. So what your church has about 160 years in existence.
Big deal.
My True Church founded by Jesus Christ has 1,987 years of Christian fullness, that you’re simplistic Church doesn’t have.
And once again I decline your interpretation of holy scripture and how you apply this bible passage to Mary the Mother of God.
I will always give her praise and complete honor and venerate her.
She is the first saint the theotokos who was assumed body and soul to heaven.
As I said Mary the first saints is a hard act to follow and we can only ask her help as Jesus’s can also help us on our journey through life and our resurrection to be with our Lord and Savior. Amen.
And that’s why I asked you if your mentally unstable. ?
[quote=Rose42]
Here is the verse again.
It is quite clearly not to Paul -
Romans 3:23-24
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Nov 20, 2018 10:36:38 #
Doc110 wrote:
These passages are addressed are to Saint Paul.
These passages are addressed are to Saint Paul.
The one in Romans clearly is not addressed to Paul as it was written BY Paul. Are you aware that Paul wrote Romans?
Quote:
I will always give her praise and complete honor and venerate her.
That is idol worship.
Quote:
She is the first saint the theotokos who was assumed body and soul to heaven.
That never took place and is not in the Bible.
Quote:
As I said Mary the first saints is a hard act to follow and we can only ask her help as Jesus’s can also help us on our journey through life and our resurrection to be with our Lord and Savior. Amen.
Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. That's in the Catholic version of the Bible as well. If one could get to the Father through Mary it would say so but it doesn't.
In this case Catholic doctrine again places man's opinion over the word of God.
Nov 22, 2018 20:40:17 #
Rose42 wrote:
Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. That's in the Catholic version of the Bible as well. If one could get to the Father through Mary it would say so but it doesn't.
In this case Catholic doctrine again places man's opinion over the word of God.
In this case Catholic doctrine again places man's opinion over the word of God.
==============
Rose42, I think you are confused.
Every answer you brought here are all based from your Sola Scriptura. I've stated many times that Sola Fide is not the true Gospel of Christ. Although it was copied electively from the Catholic Bible, it is incomplete, with commissions, revisions, and omissions with lack of 1500 year history of the Bible.
The only authorized to teach, proclaim, carry, protect, interpret the Bible is the Catholic Universal Church.
When Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli copied that 500 years ago, it did not carry the complete doctrine. They selectively copied those that fit the ideology of their belief. That Sola Scriptura as far as accuracy and validity is concerned, it is NOT valid.
God is the beginning. But God also has sent His son in human form to the world to show His people the way how to live, and to take away our sins.
This involved the Mother of Jesus who without sin carried on and obeyed God's plan. Without Mary there will be no Jesus in human form. Mary carried on Jesus as her son in obedience to the Father.
Here is the truth about the Mother Mary, Mother of Jesus.
Mary, the mother of the Incarnate Word, is essential to God’s plan of salvation because Jesus is the culmination of salvation history.
The Church Fathers found many foreshadowing or prefigurements of Mary in the Old Testament. They saw her as the woman at enmity with the serpent (Gn 3:15); the “New Eve” who will be “the mother of all the living” (Gn 3:20); “the daughter Zion” (Zec 2:14), and “the Ark of the Covenant” (Ex 40; cf. Rv 11:19). In 2 Samuel 6:9, David says: “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” In a very similar way in Luke 1:43, Elizabeth exclaims: “And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” David dances with joy before the ark of the Lord (2 Sm 6:14-15) just as John the Baptist leaps for joy in the womb of St. Elizabeth when Mary, carrying the child Jesus in her womb, approaches (Lk 1:41). Mary is also foreshadowed as the king’s mother in 1 Kings 2:19; as the “closed gate” of perpetual virginity in Ezekiel 44:1-2; and as the Virgin Mother of Emmanuel in Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Mt 1:23).
In the New Testament, Mary plays a central role because she is the mother of Christ, the redeemer. St. Paul alludes to Mary in Galatians 4:4-5, and all four Gospels speak of her.
Mary is shown as the Virgin Mother of Emmanuel (Mt 1:22–23) who flees to Egypt with Jesus and Joseph (Mt 2:13-21).
In the Gospel of Luke, Mary is prominent at the Annunciation (1:26-38) and the Visitation (1:39-45). Also, in Luke, she prays the Magnificat (1:46-56), gives birth to Jesus (2:1-7), presents him in the Temple (2:22-38) and later finds him in the Temple preaching among the teachers of the law (2:41-52). In John’s Gospel, Mary appeals to Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana to perform his first miracle (2:1-12);
She’s also present at the foot of the cross where Our Lord gives her as mother to John and (by extension) to all Christians (19:25-27).
Mary is present with the apostles in the upper room praying for the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 1:14). In Revelation 12, Mary is seen as the woman clothed with the sun, about to give birth. She is opposed by the dragon who wishes to devour her son.
Mary is the Mother of God. Thus we love, honor, and adore her also. There have been several miracles concerning the Virgin Mary, the mother of God.
Nov 23, 2018 09:25:04 #
Radiance3 wrote:
==============
Rose42, I think you are confused.
Every answer you brought here are all based from your Sola Scriptura. I've stated many times that Sola Fide is not the true Gospel of Christ. Although it was copied electively from the Catholic Bible, it is incomplete, with commissions, revisions, and omissions with lack of 1500 year history of the Bible.
Rose42, I think you are confused.
Every answer you brought here are all based from your Sola Scriptura. I've stated many times that Sola Fide is not the true Gospel of Christ. Although it was copied electively from the Catholic Bible, it is incomplete, with commissions, revisions, and omissions with lack of 1500 year history of the Bible.
Radiance you've been told MANY times what sola scriptura means. It's not a Bible. And again you are wrong. Nothing was copied from the Catholic version. Historical fact proves you to be wrong but you continue to doggedly repeat falsehoods.
Quote:
The only authorized to teach, proclaim, carry, protect, interpret the Bible is the Catholic Universal Church.
For Catholics, yes. For Christians, no.
Quote:
That Sola Scriptura as far as accuracy and validity is concerned, it is NOT valid.
The Catholic version of the Bible has Psalm 19. That is only one place where God's word states scripture is sufficient. Do you deny God's word?
Quote:
This involved the Mother of Jesus who without sin carried on and obeyed God's plan. Without Mary there will be no Jesus in human form. Mary carried on Jesus as her son in obedience to the Father.
I challenge you to show in the Bible where it states Mary was without sin.
Quote:
The Church Fathers found many foreshadowing or pre... (show quote)
If Mary were to be revered don't you think the apostles would have? None of them treated her above anyone else. How do you explain that?
Quote:
In the New Testament, Mary plays a central role because she is the mother of Christ, the redeemer. St. Paul alludes to Mary in Galatians 4:4-5, and all four Gospels speak of her.
They do but none say to venerate her.
Quote:
In the Gospel of Luke, Mary is prominent at the Annunciation (1:26-38) and the Visitation (1:39-45). Also, in Luke, she prays the Magnificat (1:46-56), gives birth to Jesus (2:1-7), presents him in the Temple (2:22-38) and later finds him in the Temple preaching among the teachers of the law (2:41-52). In John’s Gospel, Mary appeals to Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana to perform his first miracle (2:1-12);
Yes and NOWHERE does it say she was sinless or to be prayed to. NOWHERE. Why would God's word omit something so important?
Quote:
Mary is the Mother of God.
The Bible says Mary gave birth to the Son of God. She's not the mother of God - he already existed. God's word doesn't call her the mother of God. If she were to be prayed to and venerated then Jesus would have instructed us to do so but He didn't.
Nov 23, 2018 10:14:14 #
Rose42 wrote:
The Bible says Mary gave birth to the Son of God. She's not the mother of God - he already existed. God's word doesn't call her the mother of God. If she were to be prayed to and venerated then Jesus would have instructed us to do so but He didn't.
=================
You don't tell me. Are you kidding?
Now I tell you again that Sola Scriptura is NOT a valid Gospel.
During 1517, 500 years ago today, Luther, or Calvin, Swingli copied fraudulently from the Holy Bible of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church owns the Holy Scriptures because Jesus asked Peter that the Church keep, share, spread, create, and proclaim to the children of God and to the world. That was the Catholic Church. Sources of your Solas came from nowhere else except the owner of the Gospel the Catholic Universal Church. Don't you understand that it was only 500 years ago that you Sola Scriptura was man-made, revised, with so many omissions during the 1500 years of lost history.
All your answers now, are proven by your fake Sola doctrine. That is why they are all wrong, wrong, wrong! Your Sola Scriptura tells you those answers.
But since your Sola Scriptura is invalid, fake, man-made, incomplete, and revised, I don't take any of your answers at face value.
What I've written earlier about the true history of Mary, mother of God. They are all in the true Bible of Christ, and nothing could change that. It is based from the authentic sources and history.
The Virgin Mother of God, is loved, honored, and venerated because of who she is. She is the mother of Jesus who came to the world, to show us the way how to live, and to wash away our sins.
Without the Virgin Mary, there is no Jesus in human form.
Nov 23, 2018 10:26:41 #
Radiance3 wrote:
=================
All your answers now, are proven by your fake Sola doctrine. That is why they are all wrong, wrong, wrong! Your Sola Scriptura tells you those answers.
But since your Sola Scriptura is invalid, fake, man-made, incomplete, and revised, I don't take any of your answers at face value.
All your answers now, are proven by your fake Sola doctrine. That is why they are all wrong, wrong, wrong! Your Sola Scriptura tells you those answers.
But since your Sola Scriptura is invalid, fake, man-made, incomplete, and revised, I don't take any of your answers at face value.
Read the Catholic Psalm 19. It is very clear. Do you believe God's word is true or not?
Quote:
The Virgin Mother of God, is loved, honored, and venerated because of who she is. She is the mother of Jesus who came to the world, to show us the way how to live, and to wash away our sins.
Without the Virgin Mary, there is no Jesus in human form.
Without the Virgin Mary, there is no Jesus in human form.
Then if that is what should be done why didn't Jesus elevate her above others? Why didn't any of the apostles either? You still haven't shown anywhere in the Bible where we are told to pray to her.
Nov 23, 2018 10:40:28 #
Rose42 wrote:
Then if that is what should be done why didn't Jesus elevate her above others? Why didn't any of the apostles either? You still haven't shown anywhere in the Bible where we are told to pray to her.
====================
I have given you full history about the Mother Mary. Here are some more.
Luke 11:27-28 - And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (Read More...)
Luke 8:21 - And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Luke 2:19 - But Mary kept all these things, and pondered [them] in her heart.
Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
John 19:26-27 - When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! (Read More...)
Luke 1:30 - And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Proverbs 31:30 - Favour [is] deceitful, and beauty [is] vain: [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
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