Praying for the Dead: A Solidarity of Hope
Nov 21, 2018 13:12:40 #
11/18/2018 Praying for the Dead: A Solidarity of Hope
https://catholicexchange.com/author/roman-catholic-spiritual-direction
https://catholicexchange.com/praying-for-the-dead-a-solidarity-of-hope
My heart goes to those whose loved ones have died in the recent fires in California, in their aftermath as well as in so many terrible acts of violence.
Clearly, those of us who are close to these awful events cannot be indifferent and we must find ways to relieve the suffering of the living.
But what about the plight of those who have died?
Does our faith in Christ allow us to offer them relief and aid in their final journey to the House of the Father?
If so, then we must pray for them, and for the friends and family that they have left behind.
We are implicated in each other’s mysterious journey to God, even after death.
We believe this because of the resurrection of the Lord from the dead and the reality of the Church in which Christ has established.
Christ’s own body and blood, soul and divinity are not remote from us, but given to us, even to the point that we nourish ourselves on Him and are made His members.
Hence, joined together in Him, in His Body, the Church, we go where the Risen Lord leads–and He always leads to a deeper solidarity, He in us and we in Him.
Having blazed the trail from the valley of death to the Father’s House, He is the Way from the depths of sin to the highest heavens.
He leads us from the visible to the invisible, from time to eternity, from what seems senseless to what is most meaningful.
No one can thwart His purpose.
As members of His Body, we trod this trail by a communion of prayers.
This solidarity of hope includes prayers of our own and also of those who pray for us, and every prayer echoes with the cry that lives in the Heart of Christ.
Whether we live or die, no power in heaven or on earth or beneath this world can break this communion of prayer.
Indeed, when we pray and when others pray for us–it is truly our Immortal Lord praying in us.
Wherever there is a reason for hope, no matter how difficult the journey, who will set limits on the desires of His Heart or circumscribe the love He bears for each soul, especially those whose last moments seem eclipsed by agony?
By a communion of prayer, we journey in Him with one another from the first moment of faith until we arrive at last in the light of glory.
By the simplest movement of the heart and even the faintest effort to cling to Him, a happy ending awaits us even if in death everything seems engulfed meaninglessness.
It is not a movement we ever make on our own, but it is our own decision nonetheless, even as myriads of hosts rush to protect it and help it realize its hope.
Thus, at death, when we are no longer able to journey on our own, His prayer through the Church carries us onward.
Love requires many difficult purifications and painful healings before we can stand before the face of the One who loved us to the end.
No unaided human effort can endure these trials of love.
Yet, we never face these alone, but always in the Church with Christ’s gentle presence and His mighty prayer.
Because He conquered death and because we are members of His Body, death cannot stand between us and the love of God.
If Christ’s prayer has triumphed over sin and death, then when Christ prays through us in His Church for our brothers and sisters who have died, whatever He asks for on their behalf is heard and granted by the Father.
By this exquisite solidarity of prayer, the Bride of Christ knows the way to the Bridegroom in both life and death.
She knows this path to love. She knows it by love and She knows it for love.
She knows even as it disappears from our sight at the last moments of this life.
Though we cannot see it, the Body of Christ knows the passage that crosses the very threshold of heaven.
Christ Himself bridges this abyss.
Therefore, the Bride of the Lamb dares to pray, even for those who have died, by prayer that participates in Christ’s own prayer.
With a newness that this dying world cannot know, we who are bound together in the Church traverse with each soul the wounds of sin, covered by the blood of the Lamb and His own unvanquished hope, to enter the healing heart of the Trinity.
https://catholicexchange.com/author/roman-catholic-spiritual-direction
https://catholicexchange.com/praying-for-the-dead-a-solidarity-of-hope
My heart goes to those whose loved ones have died in the recent fires in California, in their aftermath as well as in so many terrible acts of violence.
Clearly, those of us who are close to these awful events cannot be indifferent and we must find ways to relieve the suffering of the living.
But what about the plight of those who have died?
Does our faith in Christ allow us to offer them relief and aid in their final journey to the House of the Father?
If so, then we must pray for them, and for the friends and family that they have left behind.
We are implicated in each other’s mysterious journey to God, even after death.
We believe this because of the resurrection of the Lord from the dead and the reality of the Church in which Christ has established.
Christ’s own body and blood, soul and divinity are not remote from us, but given to us, even to the point that we nourish ourselves on Him and are made His members.
Hence, joined together in Him, in His Body, the Church, we go where the Risen Lord leads–and He always leads to a deeper solidarity, He in us and we in Him.
Having blazed the trail from the valley of death to the Father’s House, He is the Way from the depths of sin to the highest heavens.
He leads us from the visible to the invisible, from time to eternity, from what seems senseless to what is most meaningful.
No one can thwart His purpose.
As members of His Body, we trod this trail by a communion of prayers.
This solidarity of hope includes prayers of our own and also of those who pray for us, and every prayer echoes with the cry that lives in the Heart of Christ.
Whether we live or die, no power in heaven or on earth or beneath this world can break this communion of prayer.
Indeed, when we pray and when others pray for us–it is truly our Immortal Lord praying in us.
Wherever there is a reason for hope, no matter how difficult the journey, who will set limits on the desires of His Heart or circumscribe the love He bears for each soul, especially those whose last moments seem eclipsed by agony?
By a communion of prayer, we journey in Him with one another from the first moment of faith until we arrive at last in the light of glory.
By the simplest movement of the heart and even the faintest effort to cling to Him, a happy ending awaits us even if in death everything seems engulfed meaninglessness.
It is not a movement we ever make on our own, but it is our own decision nonetheless, even as myriads of hosts rush to protect it and help it realize its hope.
Thus, at death, when we are no longer able to journey on our own, His prayer through the Church carries us onward.
Love requires many difficult purifications and painful healings before we can stand before the face of the One who loved us to the end.
No unaided human effort can endure these trials of love.
Yet, we never face these alone, but always in the Church with Christ’s gentle presence and His mighty prayer.
Because He conquered death and because we are members of His Body, death cannot stand between us and the love of God.
If Christ’s prayer has triumphed over sin and death, then when Christ prays through us in His Church for our brothers and sisters who have died, whatever He asks for on their behalf is heard and granted by the Father.
By this exquisite solidarity of prayer, the Bride of Christ knows the way to the Bridegroom in both life and death.
She knows this path to love. She knows it by love and She knows it for love.
She knows even as it disappears from our sight at the last moments of this life.
Though we cannot see it, the Body of Christ knows the passage that crosses the very threshold of heaven.
Christ Himself bridges this abyss.
Therefore, the Bride of the Lamb dares to pray, even for those who have died, by prayer that participates in Christ’s own prayer.
With a newness that this dying world cannot know, we who are bound together in the Church traverse with each soul the wounds of sin, covered by the blood of the Lamb and His own unvanquished hope, to enter the healing heart of the Trinity.
Nov 21, 2018 14:18:32 #
Praying for the dead is not in the Bible and cannot be supported by scripture. It is idolatry.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
Nov 21, 2018 15:47:12 #
Rose42 wrote:
Praying for the dead is not in the Bible and cannot be supported by scripture. It is idolatry.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
====================
Luther's Sola Scriptura skipped the prayer for the dead when he copied the Scriptures.
The New Testament and early Christian writings offer some evidence for purgatory. In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died. The earliest mention of prayers for the dead in public Christian worship is by the writer Tertullian in 211 A.D.
The Catholic teaching on purgatory reflects its understanding of the communion of saints. We are connected to the saints in heaven, the saints-in-waiting in purgatory and other believers here on earth.
Nov 21, 2018 15:59:19 #
Radiance3 wrote:
====================
Luther's Sola Scriptura skipped the prayer for the dead when he copied the Scriptures.
Luther's Sola Scriptura skipped the prayer for the dead when he copied the Scriptures.
Luther didn't copy the Catholic version of the Bible. He translated from Hebrew and Greek texts which made no mention of a prayer for the dead because that is a fabrication.
And again, Sola Scriptura isn't a Bible. You should at least understand the term you keep using for you keep using it wrong.
Nov 21, 2018 16:09:44 #
Rose42,
I could be wrong, . . . but There is Biblical scriptural evidence, Church Doctrine and Ecumenical Councils that have further defined Purgatory and praying for the living, Saints and the dead.
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Purgatory
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead
Your knee-Jerk religious idolatry reaction is purely from an emotional motive and not Religiously factual correspondence reply.
Rose42, Remember "Your words are not God's Words." Your Thoughts are not God's Thoughts.
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
James 1:22
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
Saint Peter says,
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
2 Peter 3:15-18
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:19
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:6
And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
Acts 9:40
Scripture says "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.
(2 Mach. xii. 46)
Peter seems to be praying for the dead
Samuel 21, I think David did pray on the behalf of the dead
A three-year famine was inflicted at Israel and by the Lord’s message the reason for it is Saul’s actions to the Gibeonites, whom he sought to exterminate. They had still nurtured grudges to the fallen King.
The Gibeonites demanded seven men from Saul’s kinsmen to be killed to pay as retribution. David spared the son of Jonathan by an oath they mutually made when Jonathan was still alive.
That time the bones of Saul and Jonathan were displaced. David took them and buried them together with Saul’s father Kish’s bones and the bones of the seven men who were killed by the Gibeonites. At that time prayers rose and God restored the Land
(cf. 2 Samuel 21:1-14)
“A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.”
(Sirach 7:33)
In this tradition the importance of proper burial and burial rites strengthened among the Jews.
I think why the Jews are terrified by unburial is that they’re afraid that their past actions will linger on and no one will pray on behalf of them.
As for the Good Thief - learn some theology. Heaven was NOT opened until Christ rose from the dead.
The Good Thief went to “paradise” which is NOT the same thing as heaven.
It is a placed called “the bosom of Abraham” where those who died before Christ went to wait for Christ to open heaven to them.
Re-read your scripture and see that Christ taught those in Sheol for 3 days. The Good Thief went to Sheol and was probably admitted to heaven after Christ rose again (3 days) - NOT THE SAME DAY.
This place was probably closed after Christ rose and in its place was opened Purgatory - a place of Divine Mercy for those who failed to complete their sanctification while on earth.
It too will be emptied and closed at the end of time when Christ comes again.
Rose42, Would you please in the future, not respond from a religious emotional personal appeal.
Also would you kindly take the time, to research your opinions, Biblically, doctrinally and provide scripturally verses, in your personal responses to me.
In essence, prove your objections and religious doctrinal argumentative point.
1. Catholic Doctrine:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare," to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence
(Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031),
And in the decree of the Council of Trent
(Sess. XXV) d
Which Defined:
"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this ecumenical synod
(Sess. VI, cap. xxx; Sess. XXII, cap. ii, iii)
That there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar;
The Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful."
(Denzinger, "Enchiridion", 983)
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen, must be consulted to explain the teaching of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.
A. Old Testament:
(Note) The King James Bible, under Martin Luther, removed 7 books, Chapters and verses. II Maccabees, which you Rose42 have no knowledge of . . .
The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Machabees.
Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead).
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness had great grace laid up for them.
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
(II Machabees 12:43-46)
At the time of the Machabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead.
In order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.
Rose42,
Compare the Biblical scriptural passages. And then take a look at what the Early Fathers of the Church had to say.
New Testament:
There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death.
Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32)
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."
Mark 3: 29, May sins be forgiven in the world to come?
Pauls Second Epistle to 1 Timothy 16-18 4:19)
St. Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in a way that seems obviously to imply that the latter was already dead:
"The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus "— as to a family in need of consolation. Then, after mention of loyal services rendered by him to the imprisoned Apostle at Rome, comes the prayer for Onesiphorus himself, "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day" (the day of judgment); finally, in the salutation, "the household of Onesiphorus" is mentioned once more, without mention of the man himself.
The question is, what had become of him? Was he dead, as one would naturally infer from what St. Paul writes?
Or had he for any other cause become separated permanently from his family, so that prayer for them should take account of present needs while prayers for him looked forward to the day of judgment?
Or could it be that he was still at Rome when the Apostle wrote, or gone elsewhere for a prolonged absence from home?
The first is by far the easiest and most natural hypothesis; and if it be admitted, we have here an instance of prayer by the Apostle for the soul of a deceased benefactor.
Arguments from Tradition.
The traditional evidence in favor of prayers for the dead, which has been preserved (a) in monumental inscriptions (especially those of the catacombs), (b) in the ancient liturgies, and (c) in Christian literature generally, is so abundant that we cannot do more in this article than touch very briefly on a few of the more important testimonies.
According to St. Isidore of Seville, "These words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire".
(De ord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6)
St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come"
(De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv).
The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers
(cf. Hurter, "Theol. Dog. Compend.", tract. X).
A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-15:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.
Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire;
And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss;
But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.
This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians;
And he cites to this effect St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii), St. Jerome (Comm. in Amos, c. iv), St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii), St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and Origen (Horn. vi in Exod.). See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes", IV, 91.
For a discussion of the exegetical problem.
(See Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.)
There is the same continuity from Jesus, the Apostles, The Early Church fathers, the Ecumenical Councils and to this present time and day.
I could be wrong, . . . but There is Biblical scriptural evidence, Church Doctrine and Ecumenical Councils that have further defined Purgatory and praying for the living, Saints and the dead.
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Purgatory
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead
Your knee-Jerk religious idolatry reaction is purely from an emotional motive and not Religiously factual correspondence reply.
Rose42, Remember "Your words are not God's Words." Your Thoughts are not God's Thoughts.
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
James 1:22
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
Saint Peter says,
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
2 Peter 3:15-18
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:19
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:6
And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
Acts 9:40
Scripture says "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.
(2 Mach. xii. 46)
Peter seems to be praying for the dead
Samuel 21, I think David did pray on the behalf of the dead
A three-year famine was inflicted at Israel and by the Lord’s message the reason for it is Saul’s actions to the Gibeonites, whom he sought to exterminate. They had still nurtured grudges to the fallen King.
The Gibeonites demanded seven men from Saul’s kinsmen to be killed to pay as retribution. David spared the son of Jonathan by an oath they mutually made when Jonathan was still alive.
That time the bones of Saul and Jonathan were displaced. David took them and buried them together with Saul’s father Kish’s bones and the bones of the seven men who were killed by the Gibeonites. At that time prayers rose and God restored the Land
(cf. 2 Samuel 21:1-14)
“A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.”
(Sirach 7:33)
In this tradition the importance of proper burial and burial rites strengthened among the Jews.
I think why the Jews are terrified by unburial is that they’re afraid that their past actions will linger on and no one will pray on behalf of them.
As for the Good Thief - learn some theology. Heaven was NOT opened until Christ rose from the dead.
The Good Thief went to “paradise” which is NOT the same thing as heaven.
It is a placed called “the bosom of Abraham” where those who died before Christ went to wait for Christ to open heaven to them.
Re-read your scripture and see that Christ taught those in Sheol for 3 days. The Good Thief went to Sheol and was probably admitted to heaven after Christ rose again (3 days) - NOT THE SAME DAY.
This place was probably closed after Christ rose and in its place was opened Purgatory - a place of Divine Mercy for those who failed to complete their sanctification while on earth.
It too will be emptied and closed at the end of time when Christ comes again.
Rose42, Would you please in the future, not respond from a religious emotional personal appeal.
Also would you kindly take the time, to research your opinions, Biblically, doctrinally and provide scripturally verses, in your personal responses to me.
In essence, prove your objections and religious doctrinal argumentative point.
1. Catholic Doctrine:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare," to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence
(Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031),
And in the decree of the Council of Trent
(Sess. XXV) d
Which Defined:
"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this ecumenical synod
(Sess. VI, cap. xxx; Sess. XXII, cap. ii, iii)
That there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar;
The Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful."
(Denzinger, "Enchiridion", 983)
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen, must be consulted to explain the teaching of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.
A. Old Testament:
(Note) The King James Bible, under Martin Luther, removed 7 books, Chapters and verses. II Maccabees, which you Rose42 have no knowledge of . . .
The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Machabees.
Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead).
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness had great grace laid up for them.
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
(II Machabees 12:43-46)
At the time of the Machabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead.
In order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.
Rose42,
Compare the Biblical scriptural passages. And then take a look at what the Early Fathers of the Church had to say.
New Testament:
There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death.
Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32)
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."
Mark 3: 29, May sins be forgiven in the world to come?
Pauls Second Epistle to 1 Timothy 16-18 4:19)
St. Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in a way that seems obviously to imply that the latter was already dead:
"The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus "— as to a family in need of consolation. Then, after mention of loyal services rendered by him to the imprisoned Apostle at Rome, comes the prayer for Onesiphorus himself, "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day" (the day of judgment); finally, in the salutation, "the household of Onesiphorus" is mentioned once more, without mention of the man himself.
The question is, what had become of him? Was he dead, as one would naturally infer from what St. Paul writes?
Or had he for any other cause become separated permanently from his family, so that prayer for them should take account of present needs while prayers for him looked forward to the day of judgment?
Or could it be that he was still at Rome when the Apostle wrote, or gone elsewhere for a prolonged absence from home?
The first is by far the easiest and most natural hypothesis; and if it be admitted, we have here an instance of prayer by the Apostle for the soul of a deceased benefactor.
Arguments from Tradition.
The traditional evidence in favor of prayers for the dead, which has been preserved (a) in monumental inscriptions (especially those of the catacombs), (b) in the ancient liturgies, and (c) in Christian literature generally, is so abundant that we cannot do more in this article than touch very briefly on a few of the more important testimonies.
According to St. Isidore of Seville, "These words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire".
(De ord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6)
St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come"
(De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv).
The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers
(cf. Hurter, "Theol. Dog. Compend.", tract. X).
A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-15:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.
Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire;
And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss;
But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.
This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians;
And he cites to this effect St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii), St. Jerome (Comm. in Amos, c. iv), St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii), St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and Origen (Horn. vi in Exod.). See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes", IV, 91.
For a discussion of the exegetical problem.
(See Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.)
There is the same continuity from Jesus, the Apostles, The Early Church fathers, the Ecumenical Councils and to this present time and day.
Nov 21, 2018 18:25:59 #
Rose42 wrote:
Luther didn't copy the Catholic version of the Bible. He translated from Hebrew and Greek texts which made no mention of a prayer for the dead because that is a fabrication.
And again, Sola Scriptura isn't a Bible. You should at least understand the term you keep using for you keep using it wrong.
And again, Sola Scriptura isn't a Bible. You should at least understand the term you keep using for you keep using it wrong.
===============
The Catholic Bible is the Bible created by Christ thru Saint Peter. The Bible was not created in English. Are you that really dumb? Of course it was written with the language used when created. Either Hebrew, Greek, or what ever language was used 2000 years ago.
The sources of your 500 year-old Solas was the original Catholic Gospel created by Saint Peter from Christ. Yours, was only revised, doctored, and man-made during 1517.
Nov 21, 2018 18:40:38 #
Doc,
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
The death of Jesus Christ provided the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Christ's death was God's perfect plan for the eternal redemption of His own.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said (Hebrews 10:1-18):
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
For the Catholic, salvation does not come through personally receiving Christ as Savior, but is a lengthy process that begins with baptism, and thereafter depends upon one's continued relationship to the Church.
Salvation comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, and suffering for one's sins....
The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great that millions of Protestants died as martyrs rather than compromise with them, and the Catholic executioners were equally convinced of the importance of such differences.
These differences have not been dissolved. Today's leading evangelicals who have declared Catholicism's heretical unchanged gospel to be now acceptable are no longer biblical, (a gospel which the Reformers denounced as heretical, and for which they died by Catholicism's hands in the millions), have themselves become heretical. That gospel hasn't changed. Their conviction has been compromised to create a huge coalition among conservatives for social and political action.
Purgatory: The Great Money Maker for the Roman Church
Peter DeRosa, who was once a Jesuit professor at the prestigious Gregorian University in Rome, wrote in his history of the papacy called, Vicars of Christ:
"In the fifteenth century, there was not one voice raised in defence of the papacy. With men like Francesco de la Rovere on the throne it is not hard to see why."
Francesco became Sixtus IV in 1471. He had several sons, called according to the custom of the day 'the pope's nephews'. Sixtus gave three nephews and six other relatives the red hat (making them Cardinals). Among the beneficiaries was Giuliano de la Rovere, the future Julius II.
Sixtus' favourite was Pietro Riario, whom the historian Theodore Griesinger believed was his son by his own sister. Certainly, the new pope had an alarming fondness for the boy. He made him Bishop of Treviso, Cardinal Archbishop of Seville, Patriarch of Constantinople, Archbishop of Valencia and Archbishop of Florence. . .
Sixtus IV built the (Sistine) chapel named after himself and in which all popes are now elected. It has seen pomp and ignominy. . .(There's no question that the Sistine Chapel is an incomparable priceless masterpiece of art. But, how should it's theological and/or ethical value be appraised?
Do any Catholic clergy who profess to believe that the Bible represents the Word of God ever "put two (2) and two (2) together" so to speak, and ask "How has our church been able to claim with one breath that the Bible is "God's Word" when the second of its most famous commandments forbids the artistic representation of God (Exodus, 20:4) and to promote in the next breath this fabulous painting of God creating man?")
(They did it by eliminating the 2nd commandment - took it right out of the Bible in all Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Sixtus was the first pope to license the brothels of Rome; they brought him in thirty thousand ducats a year. He also gained considerably from a tax imposed on priests who kept a mistress. Another source of income was granting privileges to rich men `to enable them to solace certain matrons in the absence of their husbands'.
It was in the area of indulgences that Sixtus showed a touch of genius. He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead. Even he was overwhelmed by their popularity. Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not dreamed of. It was breathtaking in its implications: the pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead.
Souls in torment for their misdemeanors could be released by his word, provided their pious relatives dipped into their pockets. And which of them wouldn't if they had a spark of Christian decency?
Widows and widowers, bereaved parents spent their all trying to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, painted in ever more lurid colours.
Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them another. Simple folk were led to believe that the pope, or those who came to their village and sold the pope's pardon, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven on the wings of indulgences. The potential for abuse was considerable. The sale of relics from the tenth century had been bad enough. . . Martyr's bones, like oil, were not a renewable commodity, but indulgences were limitless and could be priced to suit every pocket. Nothing was required of the donor or recipient, not love or compassion or prayer or repentance - only money. No practice was ever more irreligious than this. The pope grew rich in the measure that the poor were duped.
Purgatory had no justification, whether in Scripture or in logic. Its real basis was papal avarice (greed). An Englishman, Simon Fish, in A Supplication for the Beggars, written in the year 1529, was to point that out irrefutably:
'There is not one word spoken of it in all holy Scripture, and also if the Pope with his pardons may for money deliver one soul hence, he may deliver him as well without money: if he may deliver one, he may deliver a thousand: if he may deliver a thousand, he may deliver them all; and so destroy purgatory: and then he is a cruel tyrant, without all charity, if he keep them there in prison and in pain, till men will give him money.'
In 1478, Sixtus published a Bull that did even more harm to the church. He sanctioned the Inquisition in Castile. It spread, literally, like fire. In 1482 two thousand "heretics" were burned in Andalusia alone.
Of Sixtus it was said that he `embodied the utmost possible concentration of human wickedness'. In Bishop Creighton's words, `he lowered the moral tone of (all of) Europe'. " (pp. 100-102)
Sixtus IV was but one of a great many evil men whom the Church insists the divine "Holy Spirit" chose to be the "Vicar of Christ" during their terms of office. See http://PopesvsChrist.html
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
The death of Jesus Christ provided the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Christ's death was God's perfect plan for the eternal redemption of His own.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said (Hebrews 10:1-18):
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
For the Catholic, salvation does not come through personally receiving Christ as Savior, but is a lengthy process that begins with baptism, and thereafter depends upon one's continued relationship to the Church.
Salvation comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, and suffering for one's sins....
The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great that millions of Protestants died as martyrs rather than compromise with them, and the Catholic executioners were equally convinced of the importance of such differences.
These differences have not been dissolved. Today's leading evangelicals who have declared Catholicism's heretical unchanged gospel to be now acceptable are no longer biblical, (a gospel which the Reformers denounced as heretical, and for which they died by Catholicism's hands in the millions), have themselves become heretical. That gospel hasn't changed. Their conviction has been compromised to create a huge coalition among conservatives for social and political action.
Purgatory: The Great Money Maker for the Roman Church
Peter DeRosa, who was once a Jesuit professor at the prestigious Gregorian University in Rome, wrote in his history of the papacy called, Vicars of Christ:
"In the fifteenth century, there was not one voice raised in defence of the papacy. With men like Francesco de la Rovere on the throne it is not hard to see why."
Francesco became Sixtus IV in 1471. He had several sons, called according to the custom of the day 'the pope's nephews'. Sixtus gave three nephews and six other relatives the red hat (making them Cardinals). Among the beneficiaries was Giuliano de la Rovere, the future Julius II.
Sixtus' favourite was Pietro Riario, whom the historian Theodore Griesinger believed was his son by his own sister. Certainly, the new pope had an alarming fondness for the boy. He made him Bishop of Treviso, Cardinal Archbishop of Seville, Patriarch of Constantinople, Archbishop of Valencia and Archbishop of Florence. . .
Sixtus IV built the (Sistine) chapel named after himself and in which all popes are now elected. It has seen pomp and ignominy. . .(There's no question that the Sistine Chapel is an incomparable priceless masterpiece of art. But, how should it's theological and/or ethical value be appraised?
Do any Catholic clergy who profess to believe that the Bible represents the Word of God ever "put two (2) and two (2) together" so to speak, and ask "How has our church been able to claim with one breath that the Bible is "God's Word" when the second of its most famous commandments forbids the artistic representation of God (Exodus, 20:4) and to promote in the next breath this fabulous painting of God creating man?")
(They did it by eliminating the 2nd commandment - took it right out of the Bible in all Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Sixtus was the first pope to license the brothels of Rome; they brought him in thirty thousand ducats a year. He also gained considerably from a tax imposed on priests who kept a mistress. Another source of income was granting privileges to rich men `to enable them to solace certain matrons in the absence of their husbands'.
It was in the area of indulgences that Sixtus showed a touch of genius. He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead. Even he was overwhelmed by their popularity. Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not dreamed of. It was breathtaking in its implications: the pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead.
Souls in torment for their misdemeanors could be released by his word, provided their pious relatives dipped into their pockets. And which of them wouldn't if they had a spark of Christian decency?
Widows and widowers, bereaved parents spent their all trying to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, painted in ever more lurid colours.
Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them another. Simple folk were led to believe that the pope, or those who came to their village and sold the pope's pardon, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven on the wings of indulgences. The potential for abuse was considerable. The sale of relics from the tenth century had been bad enough. . . Martyr's bones, like oil, were not a renewable commodity, but indulgences were limitless and could be priced to suit every pocket. Nothing was required of the donor or recipient, not love or compassion or prayer or repentance - only money. No practice was ever more irreligious than this. The pope grew rich in the measure that the poor were duped.
Purgatory had no justification, whether in Scripture or in logic. Its real basis was papal avarice (greed). An Englishman, Simon Fish, in A Supplication for the Beggars, written in the year 1529, was to point that out irrefutably:
'There is not one word spoken of it in all holy Scripture, and also if the Pope with his pardons may for money deliver one soul hence, he may deliver him as well without money: if he may deliver one, he may deliver a thousand: if he may deliver a thousand, he may deliver them all; and so destroy purgatory: and then he is a cruel tyrant, without all charity, if he keep them there in prison and in pain, till men will give him money.'
In 1478, Sixtus published a Bull that did even more harm to the church. He sanctioned the Inquisition in Castile. It spread, literally, like fire. In 1482 two thousand "heretics" were burned in Andalusia alone.
Of Sixtus it was said that he `embodied the utmost possible concentration of human wickedness'. In Bishop Creighton's words, `he lowered the moral tone of (all of) Europe'. " (pp. 100-102)
Sixtus IV was but one of a great many evil men whom the Church insists the divine "Holy Spirit" chose to be the "Vicar of Christ" during their terms of office. See http://PopesvsChrist.html
Doc110 wrote:
Rose42,
I could be wrong, . . . but There is Biblical scriptural evidence, Church Doctrine and Ecumenical Councils that have further defined Purgatory and praying for the living, Saints and the dead.
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Purgatory
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead
-clipped for space-
There is the same continuity from Jesus, the Apostles, The Early Church fathers, the Ecumenical Councils and to this present time and day.
I could be wrong, . . . but There is Biblical scriptural evidence, Church Doctrine and Ecumenical Councils that have further defined Purgatory and praying for the living, Saints and the dead.
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Purgatory
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead
-clipped for space-
There is the same continuity from Jesus, the Apostles, The Early Church fathers, the Ecumenical Councils and to this present time and day.
Nov 21, 2018 18:53:09 #
Radiance3 wrote:
===============
The Catholic Bible is the Bible created by Christ thru Saint Peter. The Bible was not created in English. Are you that really dumb? Of course it was written with the language used when created. Either Hebrew, Greek, or what ever language was used 2000 years ago.
The sources of your 500 year-old Solas was the original Catholic Gospel created by Saint Peter from Christ. Yours, was only revised, doctored, and man-made during 1517.
The Catholic Bible is the Bible created by Christ thru Saint Peter. The Bible was not created in English. Are you that really dumb? Of course it was written with the language used when created. Either Hebrew, Greek, or what ever language was used 2000 years ago.
The sources of your 500 year-old Solas was the original Catholic Gospel created by Saint Peter from Christ. Yours, was only revised, doctored, and man-made during 1517.
Wrong Radiance. William Tyndale didn't use the Catholic version of the Bible which of course was NOT created by Peter. He wrote 1 Peter and 2 Peter as directed by the Holy Spirit.
Nov 21, 2018 21:27:48 #
Rose42,
Where do you think the Bible came from ? Yes It's the Word of God . . .
Hello, The Catholic Church . . .
1. There is the Greek Septuagint (the 72 Jewish Scholars) BC 250, The Old Testament Hebrew Bible, finished translating and copying the Hebrew Text.
2. Historical sources show that the New Testament Bible (73 Books) in Greek, 4 Gospels, and Acts of the Apostles, (Matthew's Gospel was written in Aramaic first.)
The Letters of Paul, the Epistles of James, Jude, Peter and John, and lastly John's Revelation-Apocalypse all were written in Greek.
The New Testament bible was then translated from the Greek to the Hebrew.
Got it Rose42 ?
The Catholic Church is the depositor of faith and Church teaching from the oral and written tradition and originator of the Catholic Cannon of Faith e.g.
The codified New Testament Bible (73 Books) became codified in AD 397 Council of Nicaea.
So Martin Luther got the New Testament Bible from the Greek Primary source, and then translated the Hebrew New Testament Bible as a secondary translation source.
Got it Rose42 ?
Are you confusing your self ? And you have you're eyes wide open, maybe your fingertips on the keyboard are playing tricks on you ? . . . I
Sola Scriptura Rose42.
IS A "MAN--MADE" INDEPENDENT PROTESTANT THEOLOGY DOCTRINE, A NEW RELIGIOUS PROTESTANT PHILOSOPHY . . . THAT IS NOT FOUND IN THE . . . BIBLE.
A BIBLICAL REVISIONIST THEORY, AND A RELIGIOUS MODERN DAY RELATIVISM, THAT REMOVED 7 BOOKS FROM THE BIBLE, AND CHAPTERS AND VERSES FROM OTHER BOOKS.
A BIBLICAL SELF-INTERPRETATION, DEVELOPED AND WRITTEN BY. e.g. MARTIN LUTHER, JOHN CALVIN AND OTHER REFORMERS, TO JUSTIFY "SOLA SCRIPTURA."
Do you get it now ? ? ?
OR are you Still confused ? ? ?
Where do you think the Bible came from ? Yes It's the Word of God . . .
Hello, The Catholic Church . . .
1. There is the Greek Septuagint (the 72 Jewish Scholars) BC 250, The Old Testament Hebrew Bible, finished translating and copying the Hebrew Text.
2. Historical sources show that the New Testament Bible (73 Books) in Greek, 4 Gospels, and Acts of the Apostles, (Matthew's Gospel was written in Aramaic first.)
The Letters of Paul, the Epistles of James, Jude, Peter and John, and lastly John's Revelation-Apocalypse all were written in Greek.
The New Testament bible was then translated from the Greek to the Hebrew.
Got it Rose42 ?
The Catholic Church is the depositor of faith and Church teaching from the oral and written tradition and originator of the Catholic Cannon of Faith e.g.
The codified New Testament Bible (73 Books) became codified in AD 397 Council of Nicaea.
So Martin Luther got the New Testament Bible from the Greek Primary source, and then translated the Hebrew New Testament Bible as a secondary translation source.
Got it Rose42 ?
Are you confusing your self ? And you have you're eyes wide open, maybe your fingertips on the keyboard are playing tricks on you ? . . . I
Sola Scriptura Rose42.
IS A "MAN--MADE" INDEPENDENT PROTESTANT THEOLOGY DOCTRINE, A NEW RELIGIOUS PROTESTANT PHILOSOPHY . . . THAT IS NOT FOUND IN THE . . . BIBLE.
A BIBLICAL REVISIONIST THEORY, AND A RELIGIOUS MODERN DAY RELATIVISM, THAT REMOVED 7 BOOKS FROM THE BIBLE, AND CHAPTERS AND VERSES FROM OTHER BOOKS.
A BIBLICAL SELF-INTERPRETATION, DEVELOPED AND WRITTEN BY. e.g. MARTIN LUTHER, JOHN CALVIN AND OTHER REFORMERS, TO JUSTIFY "SOLA SCRIPTURA."
Do you get it now ? ? ?
OR are you Still confused ? ? ?
Rose42 wrote:
Luther didn't copy the Catholic version of the Bible.
He translated from Hebrew and Greek texts which made no mention of a prayer for the dead because that is a fabrication.
And again, Sola Scriptura isn't a Bible. You should at least understand the term you keep using for you keep using it wrong.
Luther didn't copy the Catholic version of the Bible.
He translated from Hebrew and Greek texts which made no mention of a prayer for the dead because that is a fabrication.
And again, Sola Scriptura isn't a Bible. You should at least understand the term you keep using for you keep using it wrong.
Nov 21, 2018 22:52:08 #
"There is no concrete evidence at all that Onesiphorus was dead. The arguments for his demise are all based upon inferences, none of which are “necessary.”
That his actions are spoken of in the past tense is perfectly understandable since he was no longer in Rome.
The fact that Paul did not mention him in 2nd Timothy 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, is not troubling — if Onesiphorus himself was somewhere other than in Ephesus.
The fact that Paul prayed for this brother is proof within itself that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the New Testament that prayers for the dead are acceptable.
If the brother was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? (Note: While some deny that this was a “prayer,” most scholars affirm that it is.)
Jesus, the Apostles, and all the writers of the New Testament did not consider the apocryphal books as inspired and authoritative. Though they had access to them (since they were “bound up” with the Greek Old Testament), they never quoted from them; this is powerful evidence that they did not view them as in the same class with the Old Testament documents.
If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, had died, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already, and would be present with the Lord.
In 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves.
To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.
If the brother died as an apostate (of which there is no evidence), Paul’s prayer for “mercy” would be worthless inasmuch as mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10).
Moreover, the wicked dead cannot leave their place of torment (Luke 16:26), and their punishment is “eternal” in duration (Matthew 25:46).
Accordingly, these texts in Paul’s second epistle to Timothy do not come remotely close to providing the coveted evidence for the validity of prayers for the dead.
That his actions are spoken of in the past tense is perfectly understandable since he was no longer in Rome.
The fact that Paul did not mention him in 2nd Timothy 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, is not troubling — if Onesiphorus himself was somewhere other than in Ephesus.
The fact that Paul prayed for this brother is proof within itself that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the New Testament that prayers for the dead are acceptable.
If the brother was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? (Note: While some deny that this was a “prayer,” most scholars affirm that it is.)
Jesus, the Apostles, and all the writers of the New Testament did not consider the apocryphal books as inspired and authoritative. Though they had access to them (since they were “bound up” with the Greek Old Testament), they never quoted from them; this is powerful evidence that they did not view them as in the same class with the Old Testament documents.
If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, had died, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already, and would be present with the Lord.
In 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves.
To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.
If the brother died as an apostate (of which there is no evidence), Paul’s prayer for “mercy” would be worthless inasmuch as mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10).
Moreover, the wicked dead cannot leave their place of torment (Luke 16:26), and their punishment is “eternal” in duration (Matthew 25:46).
Accordingly, these texts in Paul’s second epistle to Timothy do not come remotely close to providing the coveted evidence for the validity of prayers for the dead.
Doc110 wrote:
Rose42, br br I could be wrong, . . . but There... (show quote)
Nov 22, 2018 00:59:28 #
Zemirah,
Regardless of what you say.
You are so narrow-minded in the Bible narratives, with the typical Protestant over-reaction and over-whelming evidence, to the contrary of man-made Protestant reformist and Biblical revisionists.
Either is he alive, or he is dead.
Paul still prays for Onesiphorus.
That is more then enough evidence that Christians and Jews Pray for the sick, and the dead.
And why wouldn't people pray for the sick and the dead.
Look I just lost my twin sister, did I pray for her when she was sick. YES.
Did I pray for her for the repose of her soul, that Our Lord take her soul to heaven. YES.
Did I pray for my Brothers repose soul who died, my 3 sisters repose souls who died, and both my parents repose souls who died.
I don't know where you and protestants come up with this religious nonsense that the Early Christians and the Jews didn't pray for the sick and the dead souls.
This is unconscionable for you even to suggest this, do you not have compassion and integrity to think otherwise.
Do you not hear on the radio, television, the newspapers and over the internet the overwhelming facts and evidence in the news media that they pray for the victims and the lost souls who have died.
Do you not think of the tragedies that have occurred within this year that we do not pray for the sick, injured and the dying.
Where is your heartless, Protestant soul, Zemirah ?
Obviously, It's not here on the OPP religious Forum, Zemirah ?
Zemriah, yeah of little biblical faith . . . always ready to condemn, with overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.
It's always a pleasure to prove you wrong once again, especially when it's Our Lords Jesus's specific words and Biblical narration account.
Did not Jesus pray for Lazarus ?
A Prayer of Gratitude through Sorrow and Grief:
Jesus heard his friend had become sick. He loved this man. The situation for Lazarus looked bleak, but Jesus showed confidence in God’s plan by saying, “Lazarus’s sickness will not end in death.
No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this.”
(John 11:4)
By the time Jesus arrived to see him, Lazarus had been dead four days.
When Jesus saw Mary crying, He was “deeply moved.”
(John 11:33).
Then He cried too.
Jesus grieved over the loss of His friend, but He was also responding to Mary’s deep anguish.
As any true friend would, Jesus offered His own tears, mourning right along with her.
Jesus followed the crowd to the tomb and asked them to roll away the stone.
Then He prayed a passionate prayer of thanksgiving. “Father, thank you for hearing me.”
(John 11:41).
He didn’t pray for Lazarus to wake up.
He didn’t pray for God to perform a miracle.
He thanked His Father for always being available in times of need, for always hearing.
He prayed so others would see Him and believe.
(John 11:41)
“This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.”
"Through sorrow He chose submission.
Through anguish He chose obedience, regardless of the outcome.
Hebrews 4:15
Jesus understood the Truth of God’s Word which would one day be recorded.
Romans 3:23,
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.
Yet He chose to be a living example of the power of forgiveness. He went through torture to show us its potential.
He also offered it to each of us without condition.
Jesus’ passionate prayers all share one purpose – to glorify our Heavenly Father.
“We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ”
(2 Thessalonians 1:12)
Prior to AD 1,617 the King James Bible, the 7 books, chapters of books and bible verses of the Catholic bible were removed, by what ecumenical council over ruling the AD 397 Nicene council.
It was a Man-Made decision, and a false protestant reformations and revisionist, to vision to remove the 7 books, chapters of books and bible verses.
I reject your religious and historical reference and objections zemriah.
Know your church history. . .
To be deep in History is to cease to be protestant,
Cardinal Henry Newman, Former Anglican bishop.
Doc110
Regardless of what you say.
You are so narrow-minded in the Bible narratives, with the typical Protestant over-reaction and over-whelming evidence, to the contrary of man-made Protestant reformist and Biblical revisionists.
Either is he alive, or he is dead.
Paul still prays for Onesiphorus.
That is more then enough evidence that Christians and Jews Pray for the sick, and the dead.
And why wouldn't people pray for the sick and the dead.
Look I just lost my twin sister, did I pray for her when she was sick. YES.
Did I pray for her for the repose of her soul, that Our Lord take her soul to heaven. YES.
Did I pray for my Brothers repose soul who died, my 3 sisters repose souls who died, and both my parents repose souls who died.
I don't know where you and protestants come up with this religious nonsense that the Early Christians and the Jews didn't pray for the sick and the dead souls.
This is unconscionable for you even to suggest this, do you not have compassion and integrity to think otherwise.
Do you not hear on the radio, television, the newspapers and over the internet the overwhelming facts and evidence in the news media that they pray for the victims and the lost souls who have died.
Do you not think of the tragedies that have occurred within this year that we do not pray for the sick, injured and the dying.
Where is your heartless, Protestant soul, Zemirah ?
Obviously, It's not here on the OPP religious Forum, Zemirah ?
Zemriah, yeah of little biblical faith . . . always ready to condemn, with overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.
It's always a pleasure to prove you wrong once again, especially when it's Our Lords Jesus's specific words and Biblical narration account.
Did not Jesus pray for Lazarus ?
A Prayer of Gratitude through Sorrow and Grief:
Jesus heard his friend had become sick. He loved this man. The situation for Lazarus looked bleak, but Jesus showed confidence in God’s plan by saying, “Lazarus’s sickness will not end in death.
No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this.”
(John 11:4)
By the time Jesus arrived to see him, Lazarus had been dead four days.
When Jesus saw Mary crying, He was “deeply moved.”
(John 11:33).
Then He cried too.
Jesus grieved over the loss of His friend, but He was also responding to Mary’s deep anguish.
As any true friend would, Jesus offered His own tears, mourning right along with her.
Jesus followed the crowd to the tomb and asked them to roll away the stone.
Then He prayed a passionate prayer of thanksgiving. “Father, thank you for hearing me.”
(John 11:41).
He didn’t pray for Lazarus to wake up.
He didn’t pray for God to perform a miracle.
He thanked His Father for always being available in times of need, for always hearing.
He prayed so others would see Him and believe.
(John 11:41)
“This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.”
"Through sorrow He chose submission.
Through anguish He chose obedience, regardless of the outcome.
Hebrews 4:15
Jesus understood the Truth of God’s Word which would one day be recorded.
Romans 3:23,
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.
Yet He chose to be a living example of the power of forgiveness. He went through torture to show us its potential.
He also offered it to each of us without condition.
Jesus’ passionate prayers all share one purpose – to glorify our Heavenly Father.
“We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ”
(2 Thessalonians 1:12)
Prior to AD 1,617 the King James Bible, the 7 books, chapters of books and bible verses of the Catholic bible were removed, by what ecumenical council over ruling the AD 397 Nicene council.
It was a Man-Made decision, and a false protestant reformations and revisionist, to vision to remove the 7 books, chapters of books and bible verses.
I reject your religious and historical reference and objections zemriah.
Know your church history. . .
To be deep in History is to cease to be protestant,
Cardinal Henry Newman, Former Anglican bishop.
Doc110
Zemirah wrote:
br br "There is no concrete evidence at all... (show quote)
Nov 22, 2018 01:13:36 #
Rose42,
Double wrong, . . . Prove it rose,
I will guarantee 100% that Tyndale either copied it from the Catholic Bible, The Greek Catholic Bible, or from the Hebrew Catholic revision from the Greek Catholic Bible.
for over 1,100 everything was from the Catholic cannon, e.g. the Bible.
What you just presented is called word called "Hagiography" It's a word embellishment, that is fabricated or is a man-made exaggeration of history and or people.
As you have just done, and said in this comment. Look up the word . . . biography that idealizes its subject.
Shame on you rose 42 for lying.
Now apologize to Radiance3.
Doc110
Double wrong, . . . Prove it rose,
I will guarantee 100% that Tyndale either copied it from the Catholic Bible, The Greek Catholic Bible, or from the Hebrew Catholic revision from the Greek Catholic Bible.
for over 1,100 everything was from the Catholic cannon, e.g. the Bible.
What you just presented is called word called "Hagiography" It's a word embellishment, that is fabricated or is a man-made exaggeration of history and or people.
As you have just done, and said in this comment. Look up the word . . . biography that idealizes its subject.
Shame on you rose 42 for lying.
Now apologize to Radiance3.
Doc110
Rose42 wrote:
Wrong Radiance.
William Tyndale didn't use the Catholic version of the Bible which of course was NOT created by Peter.
He wrote 1 Peter and 2 Peter as directed by the Holy Spirit.
Wrong Radiance.
William Tyndale didn't use the Catholic version of the Bible which of course was NOT created by Peter.
He wrote 1 Peter and 2 Peter as directed by the Holy Spirit.
Nov 22, 2018 03:04:50 #
Zemirah,
First of all I call you, and Jack Protestant "Sandbaggers" and what a bunch of horse compost that you cut and paste to the False Protestant anti-Catholic disingenuous tirade. . .
Secondly, If you don't put the URL web address to coberate the compost that you Post.
The Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches covenant Jesus's Paschal Passover Mass sacrifice is doctrine.
They Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches are in direct conflict with, reformations Protestant doctrine.
So your Protestant beliefs and doctrines have no effect or sway of Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches covenant doctrines and beliefs.
We Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches believe that the Jesus body-bloody sacrifice is only once.
Jesus's death the Jewish-Israel passover sacrifice covenant, Jesus'a good supper paschal death only happens once, and is held forever to to receive by Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches.
In the Israelite passover meal when the Angel of death, passed over the Israelite homes that were blood-sprinkled over the door lintel.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/realpres/a12.html
Eucharist and Christ's Real Presence
The simplest way to express what Christ asks us to believe about the Real Presence is that the Eucharist is really He.
The Real Presence is the real Jesus. We are to believe that the Eucharist began in the womb of the Virgin Mary;
that the flesh which the Son of God received from His Mother at the Incarnation is the same flesh into which He changed bread at the Last Supper;
that the blood He received from His Mother is the same blood into which He changed wine at the Last Supper.
Had she not given Him His flesh and blood there could not be a Eucharist.
We are to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ - simply, without qualification.
It is God become man in the fullness of His divine nature, in the fullness of His human nature, in the fullness of His body and soul, in the fullness of everything that makes Jesus Jesus.
He is in the Eucharist with His human mind and will united with the Divinity, with His hands and feet, His face and features, with His eyes and lips and ears and nostrils,
with His affections and emotions and, with emphasis, with His living, pulsating, physical Sacred Heart.
That is what our Catholic Faith demands of us that we believe. If we believe this, we are Catholic.
If we do not, we are not, no matter what people may think we are.
Father John A. Hardon S.J.
[quote=Zemirah]
Doc,
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
The death of Jesus Christ provided the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.
Christ's death was God's perfect plan for the eternal redemption of His own.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said
(Hebrews 10:1-18):
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
7
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.
9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16
“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.[/b]
For the Catholic, salvation does not come through personally receiving Christ as Savior, but is a lengthy process that begins with baptism, and thereafter depends upon one's continued relationship to the Church.
Salvation comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, and suffering for one's sins....
The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great that millions of Protestants died as martyrs rather than compromise with them, and the Catholic executioners were equally convinced of the importance of such differences.
These differences have not been dissolved.
Today's leading evangelicals who have declared Catholicism's heretical unchanged gospel to be now acceptable are no longer biblical,
(a gospel which the Reformers denounced as heretical, and for which they died by Catholicism's hands in the millions),
have themselves become heretical. That gospel hasn't changed.
Their conviction has been compromised to create a huge coalition among conservatives for social and political action.
Purgatory: The Great Money Maker for the Roman Church.
Peter DeRosa, who was once a Jesuit professor at the prestigious Gregorian University in Rome, wrote in his history of the papacy called, Vicars of Christ:
"In the fifteenth century, there was not one voice raised in defence of the papacy.
With men like Francesco de la Rovere on the throne it is not hard to see why."
Francesco became Sixtus IV in 1471.
He had several sons, called according to the custom of the day 'the pope's nephews'.
Sixtus gave three nephews and six other relatives the red hat (making them Cardinals).
Among the beneficiaries was Giuliano de la Rovere, the future Julius II.
Sixtus' favourite was Pietro Riario, whom the historian Theodore Griesinger believed was his son by his own sister.
Certainly, the new pope had an alarming fondness for the boy.
He made him Bishop of Treviso, Cardinal Archbishop of Seville, Patriarch of Constantinople, Archbishop of Valencia and Archbishop of Florence. . .
Sixtus IV built the (Sistine) chapel named after himself and in which all popes are now elected.
It has seen pomp and ignominy. . .
(There's no question that the Sistine Chapel is an incomparable priceless masterpiece of art.
But, how should it's theological and/or ethical value be appraised?
Do any Catholic clergy who profess to believe that the Bible represents the Word of God ever "put two (2) and two (2) together" so to speak, and ask "How has our church been able to claim with one breath that the Bible is "God's Word"
When the second of its most famous commandments forbids the artistic representation of God (Exodus, 20:4) and to promote in the next breath this fabulous painting of God creating man?")[/b]
(They did it by eliminating the 2nd commandment - took it right out of the Bible in all Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Sixtus was the first pope to license the brothels of Rome; they brought him in thirty thousand ducats a year.
He also gained considerably from a tax imposed on priests who kept a mistress.
Another source of income was granting privileges to rich men `to enable them to solace certain matrons in the absence of their husbands'.
[b]It was in the area of indulgences that Sixtus showed a touch of genius.
He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead.
Even he was overwhelmed by their popularity.
Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not dreamed of.
It was breathtaking in its implications: the pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead.
Souls in torment for their misdemeanors could be released by his word, provided their pious relatives dipped into their pockets.
And which of them wouldn't if they had a spark of Christian decency?
Widows and widowers, bereaved parents spent their all trying to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, painted in ever more lurid colours.
Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them another.
Simple folk were led to believe that the pope, or those who came to their village and sold the pope's pardon, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven on the wings of indulgences.
The potential for abuse was considerable.
The sale of relics from the tenth century had been bad enough. . .
Martyr's bones, like oil, were not a renewable commodity, but indulgences were limitless and could be priced to suit every pocket.
Nothing was required of the donor or recipient, not love or compassion or prayer or repentance - only money.
No practice was ever more irreligious than this.
The pope grew rich in the measure that the poor were duped.
Purgatory had no justification, whether in Scripture or in logic.
Its real basis was papal avarice (greed).
An Englishman, Simon Fish, in A Supplication for the Beggars, written in the year 1529, was to point that out irrefutably:
'There is not one word spoken of it in all holy Scripture, and also if the Pope with his pardons may for money deliver one soul hence, he may deliver him as well without money:
if he may deliver one, he may deliver a thousand: if he may deliver a thousand, he may deliver them all; and so destroy purgatory:
and then he is a cruel tyrant, without all charity, if he keep them there in prison and in pain, till men will give him money.'
In 1478, Sixtus published a Bull that did even more harm to the church. He sanctioned the Inquisition in Castile. It spread, literally, like fire.
In 1482 two thousand "heretics" were burned in Andalusia alone.
Of Sixtus it was said that he `embodied the utmost possible concentration of human wickedness'.
In Bishop Creighton's words, `he lowered the moral tone of (all of) Europe'. "
(pp. 100-102)
Sixtus IV was but one of a great many evil men whom the Church insists the divine "Holy Spirit" chose to be the "Vicar of Christ" during their terms of office.
See http://PopesvsChrist.html[/quote]
First of all I call you, and Jack Protestant "Sandbaggers" and what a bunch of horse compost that you cut and paste to the False Protestant anti-Catholic disingenuous tirade. . .
Secondly, If you don't put the URL web address to coberate the compost that you Post.
The Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches covenant Jesus's Paschal Passover Mass sacrifice is doctrine.
They Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches are in direct conflict with, reformations Protestant doctrine.
So your Protestant beliefs and doctrines have no effect or sway of Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches covenant doctrines and beliefs.
We Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches believe that the Jesus body-bloody sacrifice is only once.
Jesus's death the Jewish-Israel passover sacrifice covenant, Jesus'a good supper paschal death only happens once, and is held forever to to receive by Catholics and Orthodoxy Eastern Churches.
In the Israelite passover meal when the Angel of death, passed over the Israelite homes that were blood-sprinkled over the door lintel.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/realpres/a12.html
Eucharist and Christ's Real Presence
The simplest way to express what Christ asks us to believe about the Real Presence is that the Eucharist is really He.
The Real Presence is the real Jesus. We are to believe that the Eucharist began in the womb of the Virgin Mary;
that the flesh which the Son of God received from His Mother at the Incarnation is the same flesh into which He changed bread at the Last Supper;
that the blood He received from His Mother is the same blood into which He changed wine at the Last Supper.
Had she not given Him His flesh and blood there could not be a Eucharist.
We are to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ - simply, without qualification.
It is God become man in the fullness of His divine nature, in the fullness of His human nature, in the fullness of His body and soul, in the fullness of everything that makes Jesus Jesus.
He is in the Eucharist with His human mind and will united with the Divinity, with His hands and feet, His face and features, with His eyes and lips and ears and nostrils,
with His affections and emotions and, with emphasis, with His living, pulsating, physical Sacred Heart.
That is what our Catholic Faith demands of us that we believe. If we believe this, we are Catholic.
If we do not, we are not, no matter what people may think we are.
Father John A. Hardon S.J.
[quote=Zemirah]
Doc,
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
The death of Jesus Christ provided the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.
Christ's death was God's perfect plan for the eternal redemption of His own.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said
(Hebrews 10:1-18):
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
7
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.
9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16
“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.[/b]
For the Catholic, salvation does not come through personally receiving Christ as Savior, but is a lengthy process that begins with baptism, and thereafter depends upon one's continued relationship to the Church.
Salvation comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, and suffering for one's sins....
The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great that millions of Protestants died as martyrs rather than compromise with them, and the Catholic executioners were equally convinced of the importance of such differences.
These differences have not been dissolved.
Today's leading evangelicals who have declared Catholicism's heretical unchanged gospel to be now acceptable are no longer biblical,
(a gospel which the Reformers denounced as heretical, and for which they died by Catholicism's hands in the millions),
have themselves become heretical. That gospel hasn't changed.
Their conviction has been compromised to create a huge coalition among conservatives for social and political action.
Purgatory: The Great Money Maker for the Roman Church.
Peter DeRosa, who was once a Jesuit professor at the prestigious Gregorian University in Rome, wrote in his history of the papacy called, Vicars of Christ:
"In the fifteenth century, there was not one voice raised in defence of the papacy.
With men like Francesco de la Rovere on the throne it is not hard to see why."
Francesco became Sixtus IV in 1471.
He had several sons, called according to the custom of the day 'the pope's nephews'.
Sixtus gave three nephews and six other relatives the red hat (making them Cardinals).
Among the beneficiaries was Giuliano de la Rovere, the future Julius II.
Sixtus' favourite was Pietro Riario, whom the historian Theodore Griesinger believed was his son by his own sister.
Certainly, the new pope had an alarming fondness for the boy.
He made him Bishop of Treviso, Cardinal Archbishop of Seville, Patriarch of Constantinople, Archbishop of Valencia and Archbishop of Florence. . .
Sixtus IV built the (Sistine) chapel named after himself and in which all popes are now elected.
It has seen pomp and ignominy. . .
(There's no question that the Sistine Chapel is an incomparable priceless masterpiece of art.
But, how should it's theological and/or ethical value be appraised?
Do any Catholic clergy who profess to believe that the Bible represents the Word of God ever "put two (2) and two (2) together" so to speak, and ask "How has our church been able to claim with one breath that the Bible is "God's Word"
When the second of its most famous commandments forbids the artistic representation of God (Exodus, 20:4) and to promote in the next breath this fabulous painting of God creating man?")[/b]
(They did it by eliminating the 2nd commandment - took it right out of the Bible in all Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Sixtus was the first pope to license the brothels of Rome; they brought him in thirty thousand ducats a year.
He also gained considerably from a tax imposed on priests who kept a mistress.
Another source of income was granting privileges to rich men `to enable them to solace certain matrons in the absence of their husbands'.
[b]It was in the area of indulgences that Sixtus showed a touch of genius.
He was the first pontiff to decide that they could be applied to the dead.
Even he was overwhelmed by their popularity.
Here was an infinite source of revenue that even his greediest predecessors had not dreamed of.
It was breathtaking in its implications: the pope, creature of flesh and blood, had power over the regions of the dead.
Souls in torment for their misdemeanors could be released by his word, provided their pious relatives dipped into their pockets.
And which of them wouldn't if they had a spark of Christian decency?
Widows and widowers, bereaved parents spent their all trying to get their loved ones out of Purgatory, painted in ever more lurid colours.
Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them another.
Simple folk were led to believe that the pope, or those who came to their village and sold the pope's pardon, guaranteed their dead would go to heaven on the wings of indulgences.
The potential for abuse was considerable.
The sale of relics from the tenth century had been bad enough. . .
Martyr's bones, like oil, were not a renewable commodity, but indulgences were limitless and could be priced to suit every pocket.
Nothing was required of the donor or recipient, not love or compassion or prayer or repentance - only money.
No practice was ever more irreligious than this.
The pope grew rich in the measure that the poor were duped.
Purgatory had no justification, whether in Scripture or in logic.
Its real basis was papal avarice (greed).
An Englishman, Simon Fish, in A Supplication for the Beggars, written in the year 1529, was to point that out irrefutably:
'There is not one word spoken of it in all holy Scripture, and also if the Pope with his pardons may for money deliver one soul hence, he may deliver him as well without money:
if he may deliver one, he may deliver a thousand: if he may deliver a thousand, he may deliver them all; and so destroy purgatory:
and then he is a cruel tyrant, without all charity, if he keep them there in prison and in pain, till men will give him money.'
In 1478, Sixtus published a Bull that did even more harm to the church. He sanctioned the Inquisition in Castile. It spread, literally, like fire.
In 1482 two thousand "heretics" were burned in Andalusia alone.
Of Sixtus it was said that he `embodied the utmost possible concentration of human wickedness'.
In Bishop Creighton's words, `he lowered the moral tone of (all of) Europe'. "
(pp. 100-102)
Sixtus IV was but one of a great many evil men whom the Church insists the divine "Holy Spirit" chose to be the "Vicar of Christ" during their terms of office.
See http://PopesvsChrist.html[/quote]
Nov 22, 2018 10:25:13 #
Rose42 wrote:
Praying for the dead is not in the Bible and cannot be supported by scripture. It is idolatry.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
If God had wanted us to do this He would have told us explicitly in His word.
You are spot on Rose42 thanks for that.
Nov 22, 2018 13:12:03 #
Gave you both biblical proof.
Yes and Jesus mourned, for Lazarus.
Who was dead for four days.
Jesus prayed for the dead, Also . . .
Happy Eucharist day, Greek for
Thanksgiving.
Yes and Jesus mourned, for Lazarus.
Who was dead for four days.
Jesus prayed for the dead, Also . . .
Happy Eucharist day, Greek for
Thanksgiving.
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