The falling of our democracy (Page 9): you guys just can't wait to bring bad news when there is a little correction, but you fail to mention the over 100 times Trump and his economy...

fullspinzoo

Bad Bob wrote:

How's the trump record stock market Fullzoo?

you guys just can't wait to bring bad news when there is a little correction, but you fail to mention the over 100 times Trump and his economy broke new ground with records. Where were you and your bash Trump agenda all those days? You're a head case. So, today is a great day to start to think about buying. I worked for Thomson-McKinnon for years. The smart guys on Wall Street are buying today so STFU!!!!!

fullspinzoo

fullspinzoo wrote:

you guys just can't wait to bring bad news when there is a little correction, but you fail to mention the over 100 times Trump and his economy broke new ground with records. Where were you and your bash Trump agenda all those days? You're a head case. So, today is a great day to start to think about buying. I worked for Thomson-McKinnon for years. The smart guys on Wall Street are buying today so STFU!!!!!

Bad Bob Loc: Virginia

fullspinzoo wrote:

you guys just can't wait to bring bad news when there is a little correction, but you fail to mention the over 100 times Trump and his economy broke new ground with records. Where were you and your bash Trump agenda all those days? You're a head case. So, today is a great day to start to think about buying. I worked for Thomson-McKinnon for years. The smart guys on Wall Street are buying today so STFU!!!!!

How many did Obama have?

fullspinzoo

Bad Bob wrote:

How many did Obama have?

get douche, you can count to twenty can't you if you take your shoes off count em up? BTW, the market is STILL up over 32% since election day. You just pray every day for something you cah whine about, so I'm glad Trump gave you the opportunity. Trump has knocked it out of the park in so many areas. You ask just about anybody with a half a brain on the streets and they will tell you "the economy is BOOMING. You can spin it any way you want. Hey, Bad Bob one question for you, "What do you think about the fact that those five generals are back with the Taliban trying to kill Americans? Great idea of Obama's letting those guys out from GITMO, don't you think? Comments? Spin this?

zillaorange

To ALL the opp crew, here's hoping you all have a HAPPY, HEALTHY & SAFE THANKSGIVING !!!

Bad Bob Loc: Virginia

fullspinzoo wrote:

get douche, you can count to twenty can't you if y... (show quote)

Thank you Obama.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

The Critical Critic wrote:

And do you recall that he was lambasted for making such an ignorant statement? Apparently he never read anything about Ancient Greece.

Is the United States of America a republic or a democracy?

By Eugene Volokh , May 13, 2015

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.

Likewise, James Wilson, one of the main drafters of the Constitution and one of the first Supreme Court Justices, defended the Constitution in 1787 by speaking of the three forms of government being the “monarchical, aristocratical, and democratical,” and said that in a democracy the sovereign power is “inherent in the people, and is either exercised by themselves or by their representatives.” And Chief Justice John Marshall — who helped lead the fight in the 1788 Virginia Convention for ratifying the U.S. Constitution — likewise defended the Constitution in that convention by describing it as implementing “democracy” (as opposed to “despotism”), and without the need to even add the qualifier “representative.”

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.

Now one can certainly argue that some aspects of U.S. government should become less direct, and filtered through more layers of representation. One can argue, for instance, that the 17th Amendment should be repealed, and that U.S. senators should no longer be elected directly by the people, but should return to being elected by state legislators who are elected by the people. Or one can argue for repealing state- and local-level initiative and referendum schemes. Or one can argue for making the Electoral College into a deliberative body, in which the electors are supposed to discuss the candidates and make various political deals, rather than being elected solely to vote for particular candidates. And of course one can equally argue for making some aspects of U.S. government more direct, for instance by shifting to truly direct election of the president, or by institute a federal-level initiative and referendum.

But there is no basis for saying that the United States is somehow “not a democracy, but a republic.” “Democracy” and “republic” aren’t just words that a speaker can arbitrarily define to mean something (e.g., defining democracy as “a form of government in which all laws are made directly by the people”). They are terms that have been given meaning by English speakers more broadly. And both today and in the Framing era,
'democracy' has been generally understood to include representative democracy as well as direct democracy.

zillaorange

slatten49 wrote:

Is the United States of America a republic or a democracy?

By Eugene Volokh , May 13, 2015

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.

Likewise, James Wilson, one of the main drafters of the Constitution and one of the first Supreme Court Justices, defended the Constitution in 1787 by speaking of the three forms of government being the “monarchical, aristocratical, and democratical,” and said that in a democracy the sovereign power is “inherent in the people, and is either exercised by themselves or by their representatives.” And Chief Justice John Marshall — who helped lead the fight in the 1788 Virginia Convention for ratifying the U.S. Constitution — likewise defended the Constitution in that convention by describing it as implementing “democracy” (as opposed to “despotism”), and without the need to even add the qualifier “representative.”

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.

Now one can certainly argue that some aspects of U.S. government should become less direct, and filtered through more layers of representation. One can argue, for instance, that the 17th Amendment should be repealed, and that U.S. senators should no longer be elected directly by the people, but should return to being elected by state legislators who are elected by the people. Or one can argue for repealing state- and local-level initiative and referendum schemes. Or one can argue for making the Electoral College into a deliberative body, in which the electors are supposed to discuss the candidates and make various political deals, rather than being elected solely to vote for particular candidates. And of course one can equally argue for making some aspects of U.S. government more direct, for instance by shifting to truly direct election of the president, or by institute a federal-level initiative and referendum.

But there is no basis for saying that the United States is somehow “not a democracy, but a republic.” “Democracy” and “republic” aren’t just words that a speaker can arbitrarily define to mean something (e.g., defining democracy as “a form of government in which all laws are made directly by the people”). They are terms that have been given meaning by English speakers more broadly. And both today and in the Framing era,
'democracy' has been generally understood to include representative democracy as well as direct democracy.

Is the United States of America a republic or a de... (show quote)

Simply stated the founders created a REPUBLIC ! They knew a democracy would fail !!! The revisionist 7 socialit/ dems are doing their damndest to create a democracy ! They will FAIL ! Too many of us swore to uphold & defend the Constitution, the revisionist WILL FAIL !!!

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

zillaorange wrote:

To ALL the opp crew, here's hoping you all have a HAPPY, HEALTHY & SAFE THANKSGIVING !!!

Back at ya', 'Zilla...HAPPY THANKSGIVING

mactheknife

What a load of nonsense. After having studied this "Russia Probe" exhaustively and based upon an objective analysis of the evidence, here is my take on the major (bad) players in decreasing order of importance: DNC/Clinton campaign, UK Intelligence, Ukrainian Intelligence, Russia-Australia. This was mostly a case of the DNC interfering in fair elections in the US with some help from outside actors. I rate UK Intelligence to be a more serious threat than the Russians and the Brits are supposed to be our "friends" from who we are "separated by only a common language". No wonder they object to President Trump's threat to declassify documents.

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

slatten49 wrote:

Is the United States of America a republic or a democracy?

By Eugene Volokh , May 13, 2015

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.

Likewise, James Wilson, one of the main drafters of the Constitution and one of the first Supreme Court Justices, defended the Constitution in 1787 by speaking of the three forms of government being the “monarchical, aristocratical, and democratical,” and said that in a democracy the sovereign power is “inherent in the people, and is either exercised by themselves or by their representatives.” And Chief Justice John Marshall — who helped lead the fight in the 1788 Virginia Convention for ratifying the U.S. Constitution — likewise defended the Constitution in that convention by describing it as implementing “democracy” (as opposed to “despotism”), and without the need to even add the qualifier “representative.”

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.

Now one can certainly argue that some aspects of U.S. government should become less direct, and filtered through more layers of representation. One can argue, for instance, that the 17th Amendment should be repealed, and that U.S. senators should no longer be elected directly by the people, but should return to being elected by state legislators who are elected by the people. Or one can argue for repealing state- and local-level initiative and referendum schemes. Or one can argue for making the Electoral College into a deliberative body, in which the electors are supposed to discuss the candidates and make various political deals, rather than being elected solely to vote for particular candidates. And of course one can equally argue for making some aspects of U.S. government more direct, for instance by shifting to truly direct election of the president, or by institute a federal-level initiative and referendum.

But there is no basis for saying that the United States is somehow “not a democracy, but a republic.” “Democracy” and “republic” aren’t just words that a speaker can arbitrarily define to mean something (e.g., defining democracy as “a form of government in which all laws are made directly by the people”). They are terms that have been given meaning by English speakers more broadly. And both today and in the Framing era,
'democracy' has been generally understood to include representative democracy as well as direct democracy.

Is the United States of America a republic or a de... (show quote)

Great explanation, slatts... thank you..and again, have a great thanksgiving..

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

permafrost wrote:

Great explanation, slatts... thank you..and again, have a great thanksgiving..

There is a difference between a Democracy and a Republic.
Our Republic protects the minority, by placing restrictions on the "majority".
Basic "rights" are protected for all.
It protects against a lot of theft. Property rights.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

eagleye13 wrote:

There is a difference between a Democracy and a Republic.
Our Republic protects the minority, by placing restrictions on the "majority".
Basic "rights" are protected for all.
It protects against a lot of theft. Property rights.

No argument there, Eagleye.

From my post above to which you responded:

"The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy."

working class stiff Loc: N. Carolina

zillaorange wrote:

Simply stated the founders created a REPUBLIC ! They knew a democracy would fail !!! The revisionist 7 socialit/ dems are doing their damndest to create a democracy ! They will FAIL ! Too many of us swore to uphold & defend the Constitution, the revisionist WILL FAIL !!!

It's never as simple as folks make out. The Founders created a hybrid.

https://mises.org/wire/stop-saying-were-republic-not-democracy

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

working class stiff wrote:

It's never as simple as folks make out. The Founders created a hybrid.

https://mises.org/wire/stop-saying-were-republic-not-democracy

No, it isn't. Nice link, WCS.

Have a great Thanksgiving, my friend.