PeterS

How ironic, I was just accused of nit-picking by another conservative on this board. Do you think that's code word for you just spoke the truth? I mean after all, that was all that I did...

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Buy me a beer, Pete Just make it a virtual ice-cold one and send it on to me.

I could use it, right about now.

Tug484

I know, but if your family has that land over a hundred years, it seems like a travesty.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Permafrost has his head up his A.
He has no idea of the Laws broken by the BLM, and their harassment of the ranchers. They even assassinated Lavoy Finicum on his way to a town hall meeting with the Sheriff.
LaVoy Finicum - Stood Up for The US Constitution & Natural Rights
https://youtu.be/VicUeFmyH_8

This was all covered before.

The Video The Feds Don't Want You To See
https://youtu.be/TwbIy5DJDFo
After Watching these videos; if you dare?
Do you still stand with the BLM?

BLM Whistleblower: Reid Bunkerville and the Military Industrial Complex at Bundy Ranch
http://youtu.be/BNGJXDuLkdI

Feds Burning Cows ALIVE, Torching Homes, Imprisoning Ranchers!
http://youtu.be/Aeeclad8G3E

Federal Bureau of Land Management is destroying property, terrorizing the families and killing cattle. We must stand up for principled liberty. Follow Ammon's channel for more updates... http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Jcjg5wuBAzYhFRF3jpE5A Get up to speed on the story of the Hammond family http://www.tsln.com/news/18551282-113/story.html

Burns Oregon-LaVoy Finicum-Pete Santilli--Ammon Bundy-FBI-Government-ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!
http://youtu.be/2VCEJPd4GPE

Eyewitness Says Lavoy Finicum Gunned Downed With Hands Up (TRUNEWS VIDEO)
https://youtu.be/viv5E-kmZcY

Robert "LaVoy" Finicum talks about meeting they had with elected officials
https://youtu.be/Eys3hcyct3Q

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Common Conspiracy Myths regarding the Bundy's Nevada conflict...

“This is a federal land grab of sorts!”

This has been US government property since it was taken from Mexico in 1848, before Nevada was an actual state.

“The Bundy’s have worked and maintained this land since 1877 (or for 130 years)”

The land had been US government property since before Bundy’s alleged ancestors began settling here. However, it turns out that Bundy’s “1877” claims was in fact bogus. An investigation by KLAS-TV Las Vegas reveals that Bundy’s parents moved from Arizona to Nevada and bought the 160-acre ranch in 1948, from its previous owners. The Bundy’s wouldn’t begin using this land for their cattle to graze until the 1950’s. A recent video released by Bundy’s repeat the erroneous ancestral claim (claiming that the Bundy family owned the land for for 130 years) .

Clark County Recorder documents show the 160-acre Bunkerville ranch Bundy calls home was purchased by his parents, David and Bodel Bundy, from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt on Jan. 5, 1948. The purchase included the transfer to the Bundys of certain water rights, including water from the nearby Virgin River. Cliven Bundy was born in 1946.

“Bundy’s great grandfather bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887”

This claim has been repeated numerous times but there appears to be no record of this. Since the Bunkerville allotment is part of federal land it is unlikely that any of the Bundy’s would have ever been sold the rights. This may actually be a conflation of the claimed “pre-emptive” rights, which some have claimed Bundy’s family to have. It would appear that this is nothing more than a subjective belief on the part of the Bundy’s, that their alleged longtime use of federal lands somehow gives them ownership. Furthermore, given that Bundy lost numerous court battles, it’s unlikely that he in fact owns the portion of the land in question.

As an interesting aside, this is land that originally belonged to the Paiute tribes.

Tug484

If that goofy picture is meant for me, you insulted me. I prefer being a widow.
I wouldn't date anybody from the internet, or a bar.

eagleye13 Loc: Fl

Well Slat you gave the governments side here. Many flaws and then you add; "As an interesting aside, this is land that originally belonged to the Paiute tribes."

you ignore the Territorial transfer of land when becoming a state.
you ignore the crooked operation of Senator Harry Reid and his son.
Kicking the ranchers off their land and selling to other private interests. One being Communist China.

Many exposes on that. How about getting both sides, Slat.
Robert "LaVoy" Finicum talks about meeting they had with elected officials
https://youtu.be/Eys3hcyct3Q

BTW Slat; you have no problem with ranchers being ambushed and assassinated by government thugs?
Ever hear of the Ruby Ridge attack on a family?

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

All this, after you have the gall to that claim Permafrost has his head up his arse? Did you even read my earlier posts regarding the territorial transfer of land (or lack thereof) when becoming a state? Or, do you realize I live in greater Waco, Eagleye13? And, do you really think that I'm not aware of both The Branch Davidians and Ruby Ridge....pleeease. You are hardly the only informed individual on this forum, and much of what you spout knowledge of is, quite frankly, conspiratorial nonsense. But, to each their own.

In dismantling the following myths, I give you more information to disavow though it is much closer to the truth than you are likely willing to admit....(I really don't like cut 'n pasting this much...but, it should set well with you, as it is your standard to do so. )

“Cliven Bundy stopped paying because the BLM hiked their rates!!!”

The grazing fees are not determined by the BLM. They are a based on a formula which was originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978 and modified via executive order (Order 12548 — Grazing Fees) under President Ronald Reagan in 1986. The fee falls and rises based on the cost of livestock production, beef cattle prices and current private grazing land lease rates. Known as the per animal unit month (AUM), today it is $1.35, compared to the $1.23 per AUM that it was in 1966. This is actually a decrease when adjusted for inflation, as $1.23 in 1966 would convert to $8.97 in 2014. It is also a fraction of what ranchers pay on private lands.

These rates were set in stone by way of Ronald Reagan’s executive order as of 1986. Executive Order 12548 states:

Section 1. Determination of Fees. The Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior are directed to exercise their authority, to the extent permitted by law under the various statutes they administer, to establish fees for domestic livestock grazing on the public rangelands which annually equals the $1.23 base established by the 1966 Western Livestock Grazing Survey multiplied by the result of the Forage Value Index (computed annually from data supplied by the Statistical Reporting Service) added to the Combined Index (Beef Cattle Price Index minus the Prices Paid Index) and divided by 100; provided, that the annual increase or decrease in such fee for any given year shall be limited to not more than plus or minus 25 percent of the previous year’s fee, and provided further, that the fee shall not be less than $1.35 per animal unit month.

“It’s because of Harry Reid and the Chinese Solar Farm Deal” & The “Why The Bundy Ranch – What You’re Not Being Told” Video"

Ignoring the 20 years of illegal cattle grazing and the numerous court battles that Bundy lost, conspiracy theorists have made the argument that this is somehow in connection with a (now-defunct) 2012 proposal for ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in Nevada. The problem with this “connection” is that Laughlin (where the solar farm was going to be built) resides about 100 miles south of the Golden Butte area where the point of contention lies.

"Harry Reid Chinese Solar Farm"

There is at least one video 'Why The Bundy Ranch – What You’re Not Being Told' falsely claiming that solar farm was to be built where the Bundy Ranch. The video cites this Reuters article (which actually states that the solar farm was to be built in Laughlin, NV–of course, the video provides no link to the actual article).

It’s unlikely that Harry Reid is pulling strings to get ranchers off federal lands so that a Chinese Solar Farm can be built 100 or so miles away.

“The BLM’s removal of a cached page ties BLM to solar projects!”

The taking down of the BLM site’s old “Northeast Clark County Cattle Trespass” page has caused come conspiracy theorists to assume foul play (as if the BLM has something to hide). Namely, they believe that this sentence is revealing:

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar

This is apparently a “smoking gun” for anyone subjectively trying to “find” some new world order conspiracy, and it is confusing for someone trying to objectively understand what this means. Fortunately, The Wildlife News translates this for the rest of us:

This is bureaucratic language but all it means is that private groups like the Western Watersheds Project, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest don’t think the solar power damage elsewhere can be mitigated here at Gold Butte because the damn cattle will tromp all over it and shit on it.

Yes, but, but, but are not then Bundy’s cattle stopping the solar projects that Harry Reid wants so much? Of course not. They are gleefully ripping up the desert anyway without wildlife mitigation near Gold Butte.

The last sentence brings up an excellent point. The government doesn’t need to round up cattle to build solar farms. They can simply have them built (it’s federal land) with or without the cattle there. The very logic behind this “dot connection” is flawed to begin with.

If the BLM were truly trying to hide “Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone” reference, they could have just deleted that specific point, and it would have drawn less (if any) attention than deleting the page altogether. In fact, if this statement were somehow incriminating, it’s unlikely they’d have posted it on their website to begin with.

It’s worth emphasizing what the intended mitigation means. The BLM was stating that NGO’s want to use this place as a refuge for species being affected by solar development elsewhere. This is essentially a guarantee that NO solar development is scheduled to take place here. In other words, the statement makes the exact opposite point the conspiracy theorists have run with.

Furthermore the BLM page actually lists several problems Bundy’s trespass cattle presented:

One feral cow was hit by an automobile within Lake Mead National Recreation Area. Cattle are frequently seen on public roads, including State Route 170 and pose a danger to vehicles and to members of the public traveling on public roads.
Overton Wildlife Refuge (State of Nevada) employee attacked by a Bundy bull.
Crop destroyed by Bundy cattle on private land.
Mesquite Heritage Community Garden damaged by trespass cattle.
Mesquite golf course damaged by trespass cattle.

Finally, in regards to the BLM “removing the Google Cached page” as well (in addition to taking if off of their own site): the BLM has no control over the Google cache. Google keeps a cached version of a page, which shows how the page appears when Google last crawled the page. If a page goes away, the Google Cache will remain until Google once again tries to crawl the page. Once Google “realizes” that the page is gone, the cache will disappear as well.

"The government simply wants to lease this land for fracking!"

Similar to the “Chinese Solar connection” this claim depends on a sloppy correlation between the Bundy/Gold Butte area and the mere fact that there may exist future energy development “somewhere in Nevada.” The source of this particular conspiracy did bother to show the map (PDF) showing the alleged relationship between the area of contention and potential fracking. However, the map clearly shows no potential oil-production in Gold Butte region.

“The BLM is just using the Desert Tortoise as an excuse”

The Endangered Species Act is administered by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), not the Bureau of Land Management. The protection of the Desert Tortoise has long been a priority for animal preservation groups. And again, the point was to have Bundy pay his grazing fees. The government came to remove his cattle from this area, not to remove him from “his land.”

“But desert tortoises and cattle have co-existed for X amount of years!”

Like many other similar claims, this is true but misses the point: human encroachment has reduced the desert tortoises’ viability (reducing its population by 90%). This reduced viability means extra care must be taken in areas where a species still resides.

From The Wildlife News

The conflict between cows and tortoises probably started right away, but the rest of the Mojave Desert was still wide open and desert tortoises had other places to live. As the desert filled in, with Las Vegas, with strip malls, with power lines and highways, the federal lands remained relatively protected from harmful development, but not from cows.

Cows trample young tortoises, damage and destroy tortoise burrows and shrubs used for shelter, cause soil compaction, decrease the diversity of vegetation, remove critical forage, and spread non-native grasses that crowd out the native vegetation that tortoises depend on. Cows compete with desert tortoises for the nutritionally superior plants. Cows spread weeds that result in the subsequent diminished food availability for desert tortoises. Weed composition also affects fire intervals and intensity, which affects tortoises through habitat conversion, destruction, and further weed spread, in addition to direct mortality (i.e. burned tortoises). Some of these weed seeds get impaled in tortoise jaws, causing infection and difficulty chewing.

Cows need water if they are going to roam around the desert, but artificial water developments threaten desert tortoise by attracting tortoise predators such as ravens, and by and increasing weedy species and decreasing the foods tortoise prefer. Poorly designed water developments can also trap tortoises and cause them to drown. Same for the grates in roads (“cattleguards”) that prevent livestock from crossing fencelines. Tortoises drop down into those grates and can’t get out. [emphasis added]

As reported by The Sierra Club:

As with many species, the primary threat facing tortoises is habitat destruction and fragmentation. Rapid urbanization and development in tortoise habitat causes direct and indirect mortality. Examples of indirect effects include barriers to movement, introduction and increase in predators (e.g. domestic dogs), and spread of non-native plant species that displace important native vegetation and increase wildfires.

Roads and off-highway vehicles can have serious detrimental impacts on tortoise populations. A number of tortoises have been killed or injured by vehicles on both paved and dirt roads as well as off roads. Roads also accelerate the spread of invasive non-native plants.

From BiologicalDiversity.org

Environmental groups filed a notice of intent to sue the U.S. Bureau of Land Management today for failing for seven years to report impacts to the desert tortoise and similarly threatened and endangered species from off-road vehicles, cattle grazing and other activities in California’s deserts.

From Tortoise.org:

Cattle impact desert tortoise in many ways. Cows trample tortoises, their eggs and their burrows, they compete for important food plants, degrade the habitat and promote the spread of weeds and nonnative vegetation” said Michael J. Connor, California Science Director for Western Watersheds Project. “This plan is particularly bad because it will increase the number of cattle grazing in desert tortoise habitat and concentrate those cattle in the most sensitive critical habitat areas in dry years, the very years when the tortoises are most at risk.

From the Mesquite Citizen

“Enough is enough,” said Mrowka. “As of December 2011, more than 80,600 acres of desert tortoise habitat have been destroyed in Clark County under the pretense that the agreed-on steps were being taken to help tortoises in protected areas. But since 1998, grazing that was supposed to be eliminated at Gold Butte has gone on, despite two federal courts saying it should stop.”

In 1994 the Fish and Wildlife Service identified areas critical to the long-term survival of the desert tortoise; one was Gold Butte. In 1998 the BLM released its current “resource management plan,” which clearly indicates that grazing allotments in tortoise critical habitat would be closed, Mrowka stated.

“If the BLM cares about Tortoises, why do they euthanize them!?”

Due to shortage of funding, the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center budget was running dry in 2013 (in part due to a slow economy, and perhaps in part due to people like Bundy not paying their grazing fees). The plan was to adopt out as many tortoises as possible, release some into the wild, and euthanize those who carrying diseases or who were too feeble to survive in the arid deserts.


One last thing, old friend....read my earlier posts, as they may contain more to arouse & irritate your often erroneous line of thinking.

Tug484

I know and if some peoples brains were gasoline, they wouldn't have enough to drive a pissants gocart two laps around a cheerio.
You can't make them understand until the government comes after theirs.

PeterS

Enjoy.

Tug484

They played the game here over our oil wells hurting prairie chickens and sand lizards.
I've never seen a prairie chicken in our oil fields and good grief, it wasn't bothering the sand lizards.
I am female but I worked in the oilfield driving a truck for a friend and I know there are no prairie chickens and plenty of lizards.

PeterS

Again, nicely stated. I enjoyed the read as I learned more about the Bundy mishap than I knew on the past. Thanks for posting it...

Steve700

How silly. Are you a virtual alcoholic too? Haven't we been saying all along that you libs live in a fantasy world. Now you've showing us just how extensive it is. Reagan never should have freed all those nuts and close down the mental institutions. You better watch out, the squirrels are going to come and tuck you away for the winter. Your both nuttier than squirrel poop.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

There went the neighborhood.

permafrost Loc: Minnesota

thanks, could not say no to that one...