out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

Amen, absolutely on the mark.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Hi bahmer,

Apologetics, as you know is simply the defense of the One true Christian faith handed down in the Bible, the only book God ever wrote.

Only God will determine who does or does not "go to hell," but He has written it down:

There are two separate judgments described in the Bible.

Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of his actions during his/her lifetime, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made - and whether he was true to his conscience, i.e., whether he sinned, knowing it was sin when he did it.

This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the “gold, silver, and precious stones” of good works in Christ’s name, obedience and fruitfulness through dedicated spiritual service to glorify God and to build His universal church of believers.

What we have built on the foundation may also be the perishable “wood, hay and stubble” of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this, either to our pride or to our shame, but it will not interfere with our salvation, which is a free gift of God, awarded through the conduit of our faith.

The gold, silver and precious stones in the lives of believers will survive God’s refining fire (v. 13), and believers will receive rewards (stars in their crown) based on those good works of faithfully serving Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27), how well we obeyed the Great Commission to proclaim the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), and how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9).

We will have to give an account for our actions, whether they glorified Jesus Christ or shamed Him because of our position in Christ. The fire of God’s judgment will completely burn up the “wood, hay and stubble” of the words we spoke and things we did which had no eternal value. “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12 ).

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God’s perfect standard and found wanting because they did not accept God's gift of salvation. This judgment does not determine salvation, that was determined by their choice not to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation during their lifetime.

Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be “judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works, and good works cannot save them.”

Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified” (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God’s laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Hi bahmer,

I don't lose my temper when people discuss religion. I usually end up laughing when others do.

The only reason to lose your temper is if you can't defend what you have been taught to believe, because you don't know where the teaching originated, or from whom, because you didn't research the subject.

There is no reason to ever be rude. Silently praying for others is preferable to arguing with them.

Sometimes arguing deteriorates into what sounds like two high school kids defending their home town football team.

If someone is personally insulting, obnoxious or cursing, just walk away.

God is listening.

bahmer

One of my posts on this thread was for the catholics to write a PM to Doc110 and for the christians to contact you through a PM as well. I am not as well versed as either of you two are on your respective subjects. I know what I believe and I know on who I believe but I am not a typist and typing my resposies is laborious to say the least. I had a PM from Doc110 after I PM'd him and asked if he was OK. He said something about delving deeper into the catholic teachings and beliefs. I know that you are around as I see your postings from time to time. Take care and glad for your posts.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Reading and knowing the Bible is the best defense against any false teaching.

If you know what is right, then when you see something that disagrees with the Bible, or teaches something completely different from God' Word, you will automatically know it is wrong.

God does not speak out of both sides of his mouth.

bahmer

Amen and Amen

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

One aspect that still remains undiscussed in this whole thread has been the type of ceremony that the anti-Catholics attend. Is it a ceremony or is it series of sermons, punctuated by singing? If the latter, then I submit it can be called a personality cult and further that often it is. I don't know precisely how to differentiate it but it is a valid argument.

Radiance3

===================
James 2:14-17 English Standard Version.
"Faith Without Works Is Dead".
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Zemira, you can recite all those verses above as what you are doing now. But the most powerful commandment is this:
Mark 12:30-31 NIV - Love the Lord your God with all your - Bible ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30-31&version...
Mark 12:30-31 New International Version (NIV). 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.”

On the contrary here are your co-pastors loving their own selves instead of thy neighbor. The collect hundreds of millions from the poor congregants and then deposit money to their bank accounts. Suddenly they become very wealthy owning hundreds of millions of dollars SELLING the words of God to the audience.
Here they are:
The richest Pastors in America.
1.Kenneth Copeland $ 760 million
2. TD Jakes $150 million, black
3. David Oyepo $ 150 million black
4. Pat Robertson $ 100 million
5. Binny Hinn $42 million
6. Joel Oslteen $ 40 million
7, Crefto Dollar $ 27 million
8. Rick Warren $ 25 million''
9. Joyce Meyer $ 25 million. *Meyer uses a gold toilet seat.
10. Juanita Bynum $ 10 million
11. John Hagee $5 million
12. Paula White $ 5 million
13. Joel Jones $5 million
14. Farrakhan $ 3 million -Black Muslim.
Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, what is to God.

Protestant said, man is saved by faith alone. So that when these people extort money from the poor, they said, may God bless you. When the hungry and poor come to them, they said, may God bless you, without lifting a finger to help them. When they come across man dying of hunger on the street, they say, have a good day, and then continue their journey. Because they believe that God will save them by faith and not by work.

*** Catholics have DEEP FAITH IN GOD, AND HAVE WORKS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Catholics obey the 1st Commandment of God, saying.."Love God above all things, with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength", and "Love they neighbor as yourself"
Catholics walk by faith, and not by sight.
2 Corinthians 5:7 New King James Version (NKJV). 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Those Evangelical pastors have been evangelizing using and selling the words of God to multiply their followers. With more followers, they make more money, thus making them multi-millionaires for just few years.
Pastors from Brazil. Multi-mil.
1. Maceda $ 950 million
2. Santiago $ 220 million
3.Malataia $150 million
4. Soares $125 million
From Africa:
2. Oyakhiloma $50 million'
3. Deboya $39 million
These are all Protestant pastors very good salesmen for the Words of God.
The victims are the poorest people, hoping that God bless them by giving all they have to these evangelical pastors.

bahmer

By anti-catholics are you including all christian denominations such as baptists, episcopalians, christian church, assembly of God, methodist and the like. Or are you referring to something else altogether different?

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

Just check back in this thread for the various people who responded with their diatribes disguised as endless biblical excerpts.

BTW, I just made a new thread addressing this.

I will further submit that if any so-called pastor such as what one guy cited, only became a pastor though reading and no schooling, there's a good chance he's simply an opportunist looking for an easy way to make a quick buck.

Now they may not be on a par with Joel Osteen & , especially, Benny Hinn, probably the biggest one of them all, but they still may be phonies. At least the Catholic Church hasn't had a bunch like that in a long time.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

First of all, the entire Christian world cannot be accurately classified as two groups, as you are attempting to do.

If you can look upon over a billion people around the globe and stereotype them all as:

1) Catholic, or

2) anti-Catholic,

how truly miserable you must be.

I have observed Catholic services at St. Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan more than once, and have also toured the famous St. Louis Catholic Cathedral, as well as smaller Catholic churches in several states.

Characterizing something you have not witnessed is never valid nor can it be accurate.

Any "service," in which any group of Christians engage, needs to meet the criteria to be called a Worship Service, as we meet to honor, glorify and exalt our Almighty Triune God (God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and God, the Holy Spirit), the Creator of the Universe and all life that is upon it.

If the service does not center around the worship of God, everyone is wasting their time.

Spiritual singing, praying and preaching from God's Word, and worshiping God, in general, in a "Worship Service" is exactly what the Bible commands.

In 1st Samuel 15:22, we are asked: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams."

"Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil." (Ecclesiastes 5:1)

Elaborate rituals, rites and ceremonies are not requested in the New Testament Bible.

"I say therefore, my brethren, that whenever you gather, whoever among you has a Psalm, let him speak, or whoever has a teaching, or whoever has a revelation, or whoever has a language, or whoever has a translation, let all things be done for the edification of each other." (1st Corinthians 14:26).

We are to worship God in spirit and in truth.

This crosses all denominations, however they choose to identify themselves. All are an invisible unity; all are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit.

The "Us VS Them" mentality displayed by the creator of this thread is very rare among Christians. If we are in Christ, we are One. If we have trusted His one time sacrifice to wipe out all our sins, we have eternal salvation from sin through Him.

To show that Roman Catholic doctrine contradicts God's Holy Bible is not a condemnation of Catholic people.

They can forsake their false teachings at any moment, if they so choose. Many have and more will.

It is not possible to honestly read the entire Bible without realizing every important Roman Catholic document contradicts God's Words, and God's will.

As for the marks of a cult. Only Roman Catholicism meets all ten of the marks of a cult, beginning with a man who claims to be able to deny the words of the Bible given to us once for all, and speak as God ex cathedra and change God's words.

That is a cult.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but on Himself.

Look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18, it is not obvious in the English translation, which translates both words as a "rock," but two different words with two different meanings are obvious in the original Greek.

Jesus, who knew the heart of Peter, was not saying that Peter, the movable and unstable stone, would be the immovable rock upon which the Church would be built. Rather, it would be built upon Jesus; and it was this truth that Peter had affirmed what he said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," (Matt. 16:16).

"...you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church..."

In Greek, nouns have gender, either masculine, or feminine.

The Greek word "petros" is masculine; "petra" is feminine.

Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros, a rock, a rollable boulder, or a throwable rock.

But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine Greek word, "petros" but the feminine "petra, meaning bedrock, a cliff, a solid unmovable mass of rock."

The feminine "petra" occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is the term "rock" ever used to describe a man. It is used to describe God.

Deut. 32:4, "The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice."

2 Sam. 22:2-3, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; 3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge."

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Romans 9:33, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

Also, taken in context, Jesus Christ is the subject of the passage, not Peter.

Thomas Aquinas built his entire theology around the philosophy of Aristotle, and attempted to combine Greek philosophy with God's wisdom, rather than allowing God's words to stand.

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

Amen!

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

And Amen!

bahmer

Amen and Amen