out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

And also with you! Ha, ha, sorry, thats a catholic reference. Once His Word has been hidden in your heart, it cannot be fooled. I find the corresponding verses just emerge from the depths, though its been a few years since I read my Bible through. Time to read it again. God Bless You!
And you know, I'm not a jerk, I don't feel superior, but in this instance,on this topic, not speaking up would be a denial.

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

No! You show me where it says that being good won't. Please note, YOU have made the statement. You therefore, by the rules of debate, must prove your assertion. Show me book, chapter and verse.

pafret Loc: Northeast

Those are your opinions, not fact and not supported by scriptural readings or any other teaching. It is sad that your father was upset but the plain truth is that the bible is available for any Catholic who wants to read it. If you want a bible reading for today or any other day go to this site: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/041018.cfm where there is a reading posted by the Catholic Council of Bishops or go to Church on Sunday and stay awake because there is a reading from the scriptures in every Mass.

You don't buy an annulment. Just as a divorce does not make children of a marriage illegitimate, neither will an annulment. Legitimacy is the status of children born to parents who were legally married to each other at the time of the child's birth or a child conceived before the parents obtained a legal divorce. It is not a religious issue.

The Church's teachings are as full today as they were at the first Council when the Roman Catholic Church took its current form. The students may be empty vessels but that isn't the Church's fault. What you are expressing is that you are no in no need of religion. Good Luck with that!

Justsss Loc: Wisconsin

I’m right there with you. The scales have been removed from my eyes and it’s actually awful to know the truth and know that others will never find it. Thankfully saved by HIS GRACE.

pafret Loc: Northeast

[quote=Justsss]

Obviously the Catholic church did not give us the Bible, the Jews did. Both Old and New Testaments because the New Testaments were written primarily by Jews, who accepted Christ as the Messiah. Actually Matthew and Mark were likely Jews and Luke and John may have been Gentiles. Scholars have determined that many of the books are written by more than one person so it is not easy to say.

In 367 AD, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as had Irenaeus (died c. 202) more than 100 years earlier that would formally become the Old and New Testament Canon. The point being that these books existed in Jewish antiquity in the case of the Old Testament books and the many versions of Books about Christ the Messiah had been around since his Death and Resurrection. The term Catholic was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope, by which time many books had been in use for years.

The Roman Emperor Constantine I (a non-Christian) caused a Council of Christian Bishops to be convened in the Bithynian city of Nicaea (now İznik, Bursa province, Turkey) in AD 325. In the Council of Nicea various thesis were reviewed, evaluated and declared heretical (Arianism for one). They codified what were the essentials of Christianity in the Nicene Creed; all those present either accepted this creed or they were banished. History shows there were two such banishments. They also established a canon of books which were considered the core of the Bible.

This Canon has been modified in various Synods and Ecumenical councils up to the present day. It needs to be emphasized that the books existed, some from gentiles but most from Jewish sources, and the church, under the stimulus of Constantine I defined what it means to profess Christianity and then began the long process of winnowing out heresies such as Arianism, Gnostic Duality and others. they then reviewed and selected those divinely inspired books that were to become the canon of the Bible. It should again be noted that it was a Council of Christian Bishops who declared certain beliefs heretical and selected the books which were divinely inspired to be included in the Canon. This is the Magisterium, which Catholics rely on to this day to give the correct interpretation of the scriptures.

I have never heard of or read David W. Daniels book “Did The Catholic Church Give Us The Bible" and in the light of my opinion on Biblical origins, it is unlikely that I ever will. The source of the books of the bible are well known and I really don't need another Catholic basher book. I will ask you this, Does it have an imprimatur on the fly leaf? Your comment with regard to Westport & Hort is outside of my expertise in that I cannot read Classic Greek nor Aramaic and must rely on experts for commentary. Those experts of course have all the credentials I lack.

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

Pafret, your knowledge of history far outstrips mine but it is good to know that your attitude is the same as mine. In response to Justsss's exhortation to read, "Did the Catholic Church give us The Bible." I wrote that if you see a sewer cover, you don't need to lift it to know what's under it. Justsss took offense. I have read so much claptrap like it that I need no more. Bravo to you.

Justsss, mwdegutis & out of the woods, will never be placated. They hate Catholicism. None of them will EVER commit as to what they do believe in as other than out-of-context cuts & pastes from The Bible.

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

We have clearly stated what we believe. That one can be saved by grace, and justified or made fit for Heaven, by the Blood of Christ alone.
Accepting that Christ alone can save us, is all that is required, yet you keep insisting, He needs your help. He gave us His Word so that we would know this, but man saw fit to tweak and dilute the message. It is soooo simple, yet a genius such as Pafret missed it. And I'm sorry.

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

Amen!

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

l

And you are 100% wrong and you should be sorry. It is far from that simple. Christ is the way and the light but it is only the way. We have to walk down it. I guess that's what comes from being a misinformed Catholic.

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

I like the way you said this, bahmer.,,Thank You!!!!

“He who is without sin cast the first stone~“~

lindajoy Loc: right here with you....

Yet, it need not in accepting how the person got to their belief and it-is between he and God..

Strong conviction of a topic also lends credence to people just shutting down, rather than being open at least a bit to see “the other side..”

We all have opinions and we all think ours is absolute.. Look at the learning curve in just what has been said now..

Ministering is what is really going on here.. Pretty right on if you ask me....

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

Not to be picky, but this has nothing to do with stonecasting or anyone thinking they are without sin. We all are guilty. The debate is, can we save ourselves, was Christ's death sufficient, or do we have to be very, very good also. My belief does not mean we can sin rampantly as that would make a mockery of Christ's death. Certainly we should strive to be as good as possible, but it is not that, but our belief that grants us entry. "It is finished"

out of the woods Loc: to hell and gone New York State

Not only the way but the ONLY WAY.

pafret Loc: Northeast

My friend, I have missed nothing. Jesus Christ has opened the door for me but it is still my obligation to walk through it. As far as genius, every day I learn something which usually means that I have been wrong for a long long time.

In general I agree with Gilbert K. Chesterton on why I am a Catholic:

"The difficulty of explaining “why I am a Catholic” is that there are ten thousand reasons all amounting to one reason: that Catholicism is true. I could fill all my space with separate sentences each beginning with the words, “It is the only thing that…” As, for instance,

(1) It is the only thing that really prevents a sin from being a secret.
(2) It is the only thing in which the superior cannot be superior; in the sense of supercilious.
(3) It is the only thing that frees a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age.
(4) It is the only thing that talks as if it were the truth; as if it were a real messenger refusing to tamper with a real message.
(5) It is the only type of Christianity that really contains every type of man; even the respectable man.
(6) It is the only large attempt to change the world from the inside; working through wills and not laws; and so on.

To this I would add that Catholicism frees me from the necessity of constantly defending positions based on obscure texts which can only be understood by two or three men in the entire world. It provides me with eminent scholars who have devoted their life's work to understanding the milieu in which the Gospels and New Testament were generated as well as the languages they were written in.

Lest you believe that this results in my being spoon fed let me assure you that the spirit of inquiry and debate has prominent Catholic Theologians constantly involved in the work of interpreting and understanding Christianity and these men are many times at odds with the accepted dogma. The debate sometimes involves the whole of the Magisterium in an effort to determine truth which will then become dogma.

While Thomas Jefferson may have been a polymath with regard to ancient languages I am scarcely master of my native tongue with a smattering of how to speak menu in two or three other languages

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

You won't do it because you can't find it. Several examples proving works will NOT get you salvation:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Galatians 2:15-16

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:2

So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:5

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Galatians 3:10