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Dec 19, 2013 18:37:46   #
Glaucon
 
bahmer wrote:
I'm afraid you have it backwards. Jesus didn't want us to help our fellow Americans by way of the government. He wanted those who followed him to help their fellow Christians out of their own means and because they felt like they wanted to do it. They were never forced to contribute to anything as we are today through an out of control government. What we have today with Obamacare is legalized theft and that is the same for the taxation that we have in this country.


I think all Americans have a right to basic health care. I don't want my fellow Americans to be able to have good health care. I don't think private charity is willing or able to provide for this need. If we don't do it together, I don't know how it can get done. You apparently don't think assuring access to affordable, quality health care is something we should be doing through our government. I think you said that you and some others who don't want to pay taxes fpr his purpose should not be forced to do so . I don't like the wars and I am still taxed to carry them on. I am against the NSA spying on Americans and I don't want to pay for it, but that cost comes out of my tax payments. Do you believe we should not insure health care for all Americans? Do you believe we can expect private charity to fill this need? Do you think Jesus would be more interested that those in need receive health care or would he reject the practice of taxing all for providing for or sic?

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Dec 19, 2013 19:07:49   #
TroubleshooterTim Loc: People's Republic of Oregon
 
Glaucon wrote:
Universal health care has nothing to do with socialism. Do we have a responsibility for helping all of our fellow Americans when they need health care? Jesus thought so.


PPACA is not "healthcare" it is an insurance mandate and a tax. The Hospital ER's cannot turn you away for lack of coverage.

This is about the money . . . not about health care.

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Dec 19, 2013 19:56:28   #
Glaucon
 
TroubleshooterTim wrote:
PPACA is not "healthcare" it is an insurance mandate and a tax. The Hospital ER's cannot turn you away for lack of coverage.

This is about the money . . . not about health care.


A rose by any other name is still a rose. Single payer like Medicare would solve the problem and kill the semantics.

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Dec 20, 2013 01:26:39   #
DASHY
 
TroubleshooterTim wrote:
PPACA is not "healthcare" it is an insurance mandate and a tax. The Hospital ER's cannot turn you away for lack of coverage.

This is about the money . . . not about health care.


I think you are referring to the (EMTALA) EMERGENCY TREATMENT AND ACTIVE LABOR ACT. http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=146&Itemid=172

This law was an attempt to provide medical treatment to all regardless of insurance coverage or ability to pay and has proven to be a most costly and most inefficient method of providing universal health care. It was a good first step. The ACA is a second attempt to catch up with the rest of the world in providing health care to all Americans. Let's applaud the Obama Administration for having the guts and the political backing to open the door to attaining what all Americans really want. Health care for all.

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Dec 20, 2013 08:18:27   #
Liberty Tree
 
Glaucon wrote:
A rose by any other name is still a rose. Single payer like Medicare would solve the problem and kill the semantics.


If Medicare is the answer why do people still have to purchase supplemental insurance to cover what Medicare does not?

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Dec 20, 2013 11:44:11   #
Glaucon
 
TroubleshooterTim wrote:
PPACA is not "healthcare" it is an insurance mandate and a tax. The Hospital ER's cannot turn you away for lack of coverage.

This is about the money . . . not about health care.


I don't know what emergency hospital's inability to turn those in need away has to do with it. Also, If the health care program isn't about health care, why is it about health care? Could it be an insurance mandate (like insurance mandate to drive a motor vehicle?) and be taxed for it like the police, fire service, high ways, public schools? I think I am missing your point.

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Dec 20, 2013 11:45:33   #
Glaucon
 
Liberty Tree wrote:
If Medicare is the answer why do people still have to purchase supplemental insurance to cover what Medicare does not?


I have no idea. Do you?

Reply
 
 
Dec 20, 2013 11:48:28   #
Glaucon
 
DASHY wrote:
I think you are referring to the (EMTALA) EMERGENCY TREATMENT AND ACTIVE LABOR ACT. http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=146&Itemid=172

This law was an attempt to provide medical treatment to all regardless of insurance coverage or ability to pay and has proven to be a most costly and most inefficient method of providing universal health care. It was a good first step. The ACA is a second attempt to catch up with the rest of the world in providing health care to all Americans. Let's applaud the Obama Administration for having the guts and the political backing to open the door to attaining what all Americans really want. Health care for all.
I think you are referring to the (EMTALA) EMERGENC... (show quote)


Dashy,

Your post is very informative and it should be useful information for those who are open to useful information.
I finally learned something from this site..Thanks

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Dec 20, 2013 11:53:43   #
1OldGeezer
 
DASHY wrote:
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development tells us that the United States is one of only three developed Nations without Universal Healthcare for all. The other two are Mexico and Turkey. THIS FACT IS A NATIONAL EMBARRASSMENT. If you are interested in looking at the history of healthcare and how other countries are handling this most vital social need, I refer you to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_coverage_by_country


Dashy,
Just because the rest of the world (mostly) has made a serious mistake is not a reason for us to make the same mistake. You do understand that control of health care is mostly just a (big) deliberate step to a specific goal, sold on the basis, "we will control it, but it is for your own good". (If you check your History you will find that some countries went there also "for their own good" (free everything along with central planning) and came back (after millions were killed) because it didn't work)

For many years in the past the United States "supported" (foreign aid) and protected most of the rest of the world because we had the capability which existed only because of our unique system of individual freedoms, especially a free enterprise capitalistic system. Most others wanted to immigrate to the US because of it's opportunities for the individuals who wanted to work for something better. Make no mistake, Individual freedom and the innovation and hard this gave incentives for, is what once made this a thriving, prosperous nation. We are rapidly changing, seems voluntarily, if you are an example; very similar to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in their beginning stages.
When we capitulate and go socialist, the rest of the world will suffer also, right along with us (you included).
1oldgeezer

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Dec 20, 2013 12:07:24   #
Glaucon
 
1OldGeezer wrote:
Dashy,
Just because the rest of the world (mostly) has made a serious mistake is not a reason for us to make the same mistake. You do understand that control of health care is mostly just a (big) deliberate step to a specific goal, sold on the basis, "we will control it, but it is for your own good". (If you check your History you will find that some countries went there also "for their own good" (free everything along with central planning) and came back (after millions were killed) because it didn't work)

For many years in the past the United States "supported" (foreign aid) and protected most of the rest of the world because we had the capability which existed only because of our unique system of individual freedoms, especially a free enterprise capitalistic system. Most others wanted to immigrate to the US because of it's opportunities for the individuals who wanted to work for something better. Make no mistake, Individual freedom and the innovation and hard this gave incentives for, is what once made this a thriving, prosperous nation. We are rapidly changing, seems voluntarily, if you are an example; very similar to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in their beginning stages.
When we capitulate and go socialist, the rest of the world will suffer also, right along with us (you included).
1oldgeezer
Dashy, br Just because the rest of the world (most... (show quote)


Geezer,

This is weird. You are making many assumptions and historical references that just are not supported by anything I know of.

In most wealthy, industrial nations of the world the people have decided to pay taxes to insure that all of their people have adequate health care. I think that is what we are beginning to do in America. We are in the process (admittedly a rough road) to get health care for all and we will have it.

Reply
Dec 20, 2013 12:41:15   #
DASHY
 
Glaucon wrote:
I have no idea. Do you?


here is a brief rundown on Medicare from the "Official U.S. government Medicare handbook."

Original Medicare comes in two parts: Part A - Hospital Insurance and Part B - Medical Insurance

You usually don't pay a monthly premium for Part A coverage if you or your spouse paid Medicare taxes while working. This is sometimes called premium-free Part A.

You pay the Part B premium each month. Most people will pay the standard premium amount, which was $104.90 in 2013. Some people pay a higher Part B premium depending on your modified adjusted gross income.

To get Medicare covered Part A and/or Part B services, you must be a U.S. citizen or be lawfully present in the U.S.

Copayments, coinsurance or deductibles may apply for each Part A and Part B service. Medicare doesn't cover everything. If you need certain services that are not covered under Medicare, you will have to pay for them yourself.

Medicare Supplement Insurance policies, sold by private companies, can help pay some of the health care costs that Original Medicare doesn't cover. These a called Medigap policies. You have to pay the premiums for a Medicap policy.

I hope this brief explanation helps you to better understand the program. I do not know a single person enrolled in Original Medicare who is not perfectly satisfied with the results including the smooth operation of the program by our government. We need Medicare for all.

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Dec 20, 2013 13:52:59   #
bahmer
 
1OldGeezer wrote:
Dashy,
Just because the rest of the world (mostly) has made a serious mistake is not a reason for us to make the same mistake. You do understand that control of health care is mostly just a (big) deliberate step to a specific goal, sold on the basis, "we will control it, but it is for your own good". (If you check your History you will find that some countries went there also "for their own good" (free everything along with central planning) and came back (after millions were killed) because it didn't work)

For many years in the past the United States "supported" (foreign aid) and protected most of the rest of the world because we had the capability which existed only because of our unique system of individual freedoms, especially a free enterprise capitalistic system. Most others wanted to immigrate to the US because of it's opportunities for the individuals who wanted to work for something better. Make no mistake, Individual freedom and the innovation and hard this gave incentives for, is what once made this a thriving, prosperous nation. We are rapidly changing, seems voluntarily, if you are an example; very similar to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in their beginning stages.
When we capitulate and go socialist, the rest of the world will suffer also, right along with us (you included).
1oldgeezer
Dashy, br Just because the rest of the world (most... (show quote)


Between Glaucon and Dashy you are dealing with a mutual admiration society of two. Between the two of them if allowed they would drive the car of the US into a ditch and wonder whhat went wrong. I have stopped answering them do to the fact that no matter what facts are presented to them they will use their baseless talking points and try and refute you. If the rest of the country is this far off of the track then all I can say is my God help America.

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Dec 20, 2013 17:03:27   #
Glaucon
 
bahmer wrote:
Between Glaucon and Dashy you are dealing with a mutual admiration society of two. Between the two of them if allowed they would drive the car of the US into a ditch and wonder whhat went wrong. I have stopped answering them do to the fact that no matter what facts are presented to them they will use their baseless talking points and try and refute you. If the rest of the country is this far off of the track then all I can say is my God help America.


one person's fantasy is another person's fact. I didn't see any facts in this message and I can't recall any from your previous messages. If you are most interested in being able to believe you are right, I think you will be able to do that by stopping responding to people who disagree with you. If , on the unlikely possibility that you are interested in sharing your opinions and considering the opinions of others , you might want to truly consider and understand what others write and consciously endeavor to open your mind. It is difficult to agree with someone who apparently thinks our economy is like a car being driven off a cliff for some reasons (facts?) Do you want to be right in your own mind and possibly in Carolyn's, or are you strong enough and so inclined to share your thoughts and possibly even learn something new?

I would be interested in you sending me one of the facts that you believe you have presented. I would like to see one so that I can see if you are using the word, fact, to mean the same thing I am. This could be dangerous if being right is the most important issue for you.

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Dec 20, 2013 17:51:26   #
1OldGeezer
 
Glaucon wrote:
Geezer,

This is weird. You are making many assumptions and historical references that just are not supported by anything I know of.

In most wealthy, industrial nations of the world the people have decided to pay taxes to insure that all of their people have adequate health care. I think that is what we are beginning to do in America. We are in the process (admittedly a rough road) to get health care for all and we will have it.

Glaucon,
We pay enough taxes already to pay for the health care of the people who really can't afford it. The argument is not about whether the gov't should do reasonable things to help the poor, that could easily have been done by addressing only the 15% who did not have insurance. Instead, this admin chose to seize control of ALL persons health care, with disastrous results. The worst result is very significant expansion of governments "right" to tell you what you must do under penalty of law.
This argument is NOT about health care, just as the ACA is not about health care, IT IS ABOUT EXTENDING GOVERNMENT CONTROL. It is one (of many) giant steps/precedents toward you losing your freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution.
Basically, it is establishing that you do not have any rights that do not come from the government, and of course, they know best, and, it is for your own good, because you are too dumb to make the right choices anyway. The road to Socialism all in one package. This discussion should be about the real issue, health care is simply a vehicle for distraction.
1oldgeezer

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Dec 20, 2013 17:54:32   #
bahmer
 
Glaucon wrote:
one person's fantasy is another person's fact. I didn't see any facts in this message and I can't recall any from your previous messages. If you are most interested in being able to believe you are right, I think you will be able to do that by stopping responding to people who disagree with you. If , on the unlikely possibility that you are interested in sharing your opinions and considering the opinions of others , you might want to truly consider and understand what others write and consciously endeavor to open your mind. It is difficult to agree with someone who apparently thinks our economy is like a car being driven off a cliff for some reasons (facts?) Do you want to be right in your own mind and possibly in Carolyn's, or are you strong enough and so inclined to share your thoughts and possibly even learn something new?

I would be interested in you sending me one of the facts that you believe you have presented. I would like to see one so that I can see if you are using the word, fact, to mean the same thing I am. This could be dangerous if being right is the most important issue for you.
one person's fantasy is another person's fact. I d... (show quote)


Reasons against socialized medicine.

“Many who think themselves infinitely superior to the aberrations of Nazism, and sincerely hate all manifestations, work at the same time for ideals whose realization would lead straight to the abhorred tyranny.” – F.A. Hayek



With the official launching of Obamacare on Oct. 1, I ask, who is the real father of universal health care? Otto von Bismarck, the chancellor of Germany (1871-90), established the world’s first welfare state in Germany. In 1883, von Bismarck established socialized health care in Germany with the Reichsversicherungsverordnung, or the Reich Insurance Act, which was limited to government bureaucrats and the elderly. Bismarck’s institution of socialized health care was designed to co-opt the increasing popularity of Marxist socialism and implement its anti-God, anti-capitalism ideas spreading throughout Europe in the late 1800s.

One aspect of Hitler’s socialist universal health-care model was “racial hygiene,” the removal of certain “undesirable” segments of society who are judged beneath the Aryan ideal, thus “life unworthy of existence,” as Hitler would repeatedly say. Using his brutal panzer divisions, Hitler literally rolled out his universal health care throughout occupied France, Belgium and the Netherlands – those nations with mainly “Aryan” populations. Hitler used his military thugs of the Gestapo and SS Stormtroopers to implement universal health care in those very countries that he desired to Aryanize and perfect by sanitizing the populations through sterilization and medical murder of all persons unfortunate to have physical or mental defects.

Of course, I do not contend that Obama is Hitler, but if America foolishly adopt policies of national socialism, then we fail to learn from history the innumerable grotesqueries, inhumanity and genocide of previous nations who tried universal health care. To grant governments this god-like power over birth, life and death issues will be misused, not exactly as it was in Nazi Germany, nevertheless a tragedy for society.

Years before the Jews were sent to the death camps en masse, the initial mass murders of the Holocaust were performed in sanitized German hospitals and the clinical procedures for socialized governmental mass execution were created and developed there under the Nazis Aktion T4 Program. Handicapped, retarded and mentally ill persons were killed by the hundreds of thousands within Hitler’s universal health-care system, including some of Hitler’s own relatives. This genocide was conducted not out of evil intent but born out of medical necessity. Hitler, in his official directives, allowing medical killing, called them “mercy killing” and “lives not worth living.”

This is the inevitable diabolical nature of universal health care. It substitutes natural law for the God-state of government to decide and dictate the right to of who lives and who dies for entire classes of society, as opposed to letting people make their own choices using the free market and private enterprise to secure their own health care. Did Hitler do this because he was so worried about the health of the people and nations he conquered? No, Hitler loved universal health care so excessively that he forced it on occupied countries because it gave him the power and control over entire classes of people to facilitate his ghastly plans of genocide against them. As a leftist and a socialist, universal health care gave him the power to put policy into practice, to socially engineer society according to his own wicked, racist means/ends. With an executive decree, whole classes of people would be eliminated without any judicial due process being required.

“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” These were the words of treason Obama uttered on the eve of his election that he and his progressive minions have been now systematically implementing for almost six years.

Republicans miss the point when they argue that universal health care doesn’t work; it works for the progressive elite at the top of the socialist God-state under the pretext of “health” to remove the “unfit” from society. Nazicare worked in favor of the Nazi Reich for their purposes to efficiently eradicate certain classes of people en masse without due process. In the 21st century we have much more advanced technology to kill many more people not only more efficiently, but with the mass acceptance and perfection of abortion (almost 60 million casualties since Roe v. Wade 40 years ago), mass killings have become so passé America has elected a man twice who between 2001-03 was the only legislator in Illinois to vote four times against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act – legislation requiring medical attention be given for those courageous babies who survived abortions.

Hitler would be pleased.

Since the founders of America’s republic understood that humanity is by nature anti-God, hypocritical and duplicitous, they created a system of checks and balances and limitations of government power because they realized someday a dictator like a Barack Obama would arise and seize power in the United States for himself by ignoring or deconstructing the U.S. Constitution. Since President Woodrow Wilson’s Socialist revolution of 1913 it seems that dishonest politicians and egotistical, corrupt judges have disregarded and circumvented the Constitution to such a degree as to render it now to be a deadletter.

Nazi Germany is the true birthplace, and Hitler is the real father of universal health care. Like Lenincare, Stalincare, Maocare, Castrocare and Obamacare, all universal health-care systems are derivative of Marxism, socialism, communism, progressivism, postmodernism and thus are antithetical to America’s founding constitutional principles of God, the Bible, natural law, equality, liberty and truth. Like Hitlercare, Obamacare will inevitably lead to health-care rationing, death panels, millions of uninsured and, eventually, the systematic genocide of the weak, minorities, enfeebled, the elderly and political enemies of the God-state.

Obama is using his Gestapo and SS Stormtroppers or so-called “navigators” (e.g., the youth, the unions, Planned Parenthood, NAACP, ACORN, La Raza, etc.) to propagandize the poor, the miseducated and minorities who are being exploited to lead this final blitzkrieg toward forcing universal health care, but like in Hitler’s Germany once the reality of their treachery metastasizes, guess who will be the first ones forced to sacrifice their lives for the Fatherland in our march toward a “perfect” society without illness or suffering? History has repeatedly demonstrated that the weakest and most vulnerable have often been the first victims to be eliminated.

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