Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I am sorry that I have to disagree regarding Islam being peaceful. Within the Koran there are no less than 109 places where nonbelievers must be searched out and killed. And if a Muslim does not, then Alah will send them to Hell. Here are just a few examples, and more can be found at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

As said, this is only a sample.

Having said that, I insist that most people are good. Most people are kind hearted. I know that there are religions that teach us to be guarded, to shun those that do not believe as they, and in the past have done horrible things in the name of religion.

Ve'hoe

Good,,,, that is what I meant.

Ve'hoe

But it also tells us in the Bible to stone homos,,, and other things,,,, the new testament is to "Love your neighbor" same in the Koran,,, it is how "People" follow that makes religions bad,,,, I wish you could have met the men and women I met,,, they were delightful people,,, One was a Colonel,,, who just came back from Haj to mecca,,, we had a little party of goat boiled in tar,,, and hacked apart with a lawnmower,,, but you have to enjoy any party you can... peace can be had with the true religious,,, and when it cant,,I have fought and killed them and will again,, cause my religion allows me to go to war too..... I am not sure we disagree

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I am sure, only because you speak highly of him, that he is a good person. I admit that I am not a Bible scholar in particular of the new testament. I do know the teaching in the Torah. The Torah does not teach hate or murder (one of the reasons that Jews did not fight back when hauled off to concentration and death houses). Yes, there are many mentions of wars and battles recounted from prophets, but that information is not "rule" but history. The rules are basically the same that are recounted in the 10 Commandments. I know that you can recite all ten, so do not be offended, I am listing them for generalized understanding of other people who may be reading this post.

Exodus 20 as given to the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6.Thou shalt not kill.
7.Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8.Thou shalt not steal.
9.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I agree that religion is not the problem. People who interrupt the writing from old are the problem. So, I figure you and I agree on this matter.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

larry

I suppose it depends on what they do with the proceeds of the sales. Why have they hoarded these things anyway. If they want to do good, they should use this to reduce poverty in the worst parts of the world. Poverty and suppression of people are the festering boils of society. Use the money for doing good, and not enhancing the property of the Vatican. Then they will be doing good in the world.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Larry, you restated my point and thank you. Your writing style is better than mine, as you can paint pictures with your words. I admire your style!

larry

That is why we need to exert more citizen control on the people we send to represent us. They get together and think they are autonomous and without obligation to those they are sent to represent. They have cut themselves off from the reality of the citizens and have created a special conclave of elitists. We must carefully look at the people we are sending to Washington to represent us. Make sure they listen.

Ve'hoe

Only one thing left though,,, they have to answer for the pedophilia thing,,,,, the only threat the Christ ever made was against pedophiles,,,,, not something or someone to screw with,,,, the "LAMB" doesn't return as a LAMB,,, he comes back as the lion of Judah,,, whose visage frightens hardened warriors to cry out to the stones to fall on them an hide them from him!... I have been in a few gunfights and not once have I had that urge,,, it aint gonna be pretty to be on the wrong side of the Christ....

larry

I have a problem with Islam because it claims to worship the same God as Christians do. But in their books of their program, they seem to be more like Atheists than believers of the God of creation.

larry

It seems that there are more things to be resolved in peoples minds than just hoarding of treasures. I am not sure there can ever be total forgiveness by the people of some crimes done in the name of religion. If their is no love in it, it is not of Christ.

Ve'hoe

It is bizarre,,,, I wish you could sit and discuss it with us,,Islam IS Christianity,,, only strangely backwards,,,, more tribal,,, which is probably why I can see it ,,, my own
"tribe" has many of the traits,,,,,Like I said,,, I still fought and killed some of them,,, but this guy was a good man,,, and that is how peace is made, one guy at a time... I also met some young ladies,,, who were very sweet and I felt very sorry for their lot.... they loved to look at pictures of my daughter in her cheer leading outfit, and even bikini in the summer,,, her jeep etc,,, they were amazed she could drive

Ve'hoe

Yes... but..... forgiveness is not ours to withhold,,, nor vengeance ours to dish out,,,,hard to stomach in some cases,, hard to know how to act,,, giving pain for pain,,,,rarely works,,, but sometimes,,, and I have been there on occasions when you catch and kill a rat basta-d who deserves it,,,,,,and it is GOOOD!!

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

As I said, I am not a Bible scholar so I can not say with complete certainty what the Christ made as his number one complaint. Please do not misunderstand, I believe in the Christ as a son of God, I believe that he was sent to show everyone the right way. I can speak on the Torah. Within my faith, pedophilias are cast out, they are publically ridiculed in the Synagogue, stripped of both religion and family. They become a nonJew and there are no prayers or forgiveness and further they can not hold any offices. There are of course other laws that addressed character, standards of living, behavior toward animals and so on. But, better leave that discussion for another time.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

So, you are a Muslim. I can only say that the Muslim faith is not from my understanding a peaceful religion. I can only tell you about my faith, what I have read and studied. Perhaps you will be the person to shed a better light on that religion.

larry

I am not sure that excessive exposure to our way of life is helpful for those people, even though they have satellite TV and radios that tell them what we do and how we do it, it does not mean anything to them because it is not integrated into their society as a whole. It is like this society and voodoo. We do not understand it, and do not want to. We see it as destructive. I am sure they see our society as destructive too. They are taught it is so. We do not teach Islam, we do not even expose our students to the various religions so they have a sense of what is good and bad. Without explanation and social immersion, it is almost impossible to find other compassion and understanding based on our life style. Our own American Indians had a religion that more closely resembles Christianity, but we totally ignored that because it was difficult to understand. And we never tried too.