Doc110 Loc: York PA

Marcus you would most probably renounce and deny your own mother, if she was a Christian.

There are the usual historical references: Philo and Josephus, which you clearly think they are fake's historical figures and references to Jesus Christ and can easily be disproven.

Prove your non-historical point Marcus. Facts not Conjecture to the Jewish references of Jesus Christ in Talmud and Midrash.? ? ? Ask your self why would the Jewish Sanhedrin record this historical record of Jesus Christ in the Talmud and Midrash.

You can't explain these historical records Marcus. A pox on your atheistic principles.

When did you become the OPP website Biblical Historian. Is it a paid position ? Your just a blowhard with a stupidly, opinion !

Nonetheless, while accepting your premises: Why is there rabbinical references of Jesus Christ trial. With Jewish Rabbi's references, that Jesus' trial had been in any way speedy or unfair: (BT. Sanhedrin 43a.)

And it was taught:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshua [the Nazarene] was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come and plead on his behalf." And since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover." (BT. Sanhedrin 43a.)

The reason for this Sanhedrin 43a passage is obvious: The later Babylonian Rabbis were uncomfortable with the notion that a Sanhedrin was said by Christians to have acted unfairly. They were responding to the Gospel polemic by showing that fairness was always the Rabbinic practice, even in the case of Jesus.

They accepted Christian reportage of the facts as the "Gospel truth" and then spun those supposed "facts" their way. This is a passage about later times, not anything factual about Jesus' day hundreds of years and miles away.

I cite several Sources Jewish references in Talmud and Midrash. Actual Jewish Historical proof that Jesus Christ was a human being and lived approximately 4 BCE to 33 AD.



1. http://www.talmudblasphemy.com/talmud-and-Jesus.htm
2. http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/Talmud_JC.html
3.https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/cook_rabbis_and_Jesus.htm
4. Midrash and kabbalah references: http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v18-n02/01

Doc110 Loc: York PA

I cite several Sources Jewish references in Talmud and Midrash. Actual Jewish Historical proof that Jesus Christ was a human being and lived approximately 4 BCE to 33 AD.



1. http://www.talmudblasphemy.com/talmud-and-Jesus.htm
2. http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/Talmud_JC.html
3.https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/cook_rabbis_and_Jesus.htm
4. Midrash and kabbalah references: http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v18-n02/01



*He was born under unusual circumstances, leading some rabbis to address him as ben Pandira and " a bastard of an adulteress."
*mother Mary was Heli's daughter.
*was crucified on the eve of Passover.
* made himself alive by the name of God.
* was a son of a woman. (cf. Galatians 4:4)
* claimed to be God, the son of God, the son of man.
* ascended and claimed that he would return again.
* was near to the kingdom and near to kingship.
* had at least five disciples.
* performed miracles, i.e. practiced "sorcery".
* name has healing power.
* teaching impressed one rabbi.



The Talmud essentially affirms the New Testament teaching on the life and person of Jesus Christ, God's unique Son and Savior of the world.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia, we learned that the Talmud said about Jesus Christ.

"... the Jewish Encyclopœdia admits that Jewish legends concerning Jesus are found in the Talmud and Midrash and in "the life of Jesus (Toledot Yeshu) It is the tendency of all these sources to belittlethe person of Jesus by ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death."

Rev. I. B. Pranaitis revealed in The Talmud Unmasked that Jesus is also maligned as a false teacher:

"… He [Jesus] is referred to in the Talmud as Otho Isch- "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after Sabbath…Talui, -"The one who was hanged"…" 2.

Jewish sources avoid the Greek name "Jesus", meaning 'savior', and abbreviate Jeschua to "Jeshu' which means "may his name be blotted out!"

"…name in Hebrew would be Jeschua Hanotsri--Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth… In the Talmud Christians are also called Notsrim. (Amongst other things). 'Since the word Jeschua means 'Savior,' the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu… as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach SCHemo Vezikro-- (meaning)- -'May his name be blotted out.'" 4.

Hebrew Roots proponents claim that these teachings are a thing of the past. However, a review of various Jewish sources in use today discloses identical the same or similar teachings.

The Talmud and Cabala teachings of the Toledot Yeshu-- (or Tolodoth Ieschu or Sepher Toldoth Jehoshua) are representative of teachings regarding Christ which may be shocking to Christians.

A brief overview of these teachings cites the Talmud, (treatise Sabbath, folio 104, treatise Sanhedrim, folio 107, and Sota, folio 47) which presents this falsified account of Jesus:

"...the Toledot Yeshu relates with the most indecent details that Miriam, a hairdresser of Bethlehem,4. affianced to a young man named Jochanan, was seduced by a libertine, Joseph Panther or Pandira, and gave birth to a son whom she named Johosuah or Jeschu. According to the Talmudic authors of the Sota and the Sanhedrim, Jeschu was taken during his boyhood to Egypt, where he was initiated into the secrets doctrines of the priests, and on his return to Palestine gave himself up to the practice of magic. 5.

/b]The Toledot Yeshu, however, goes on to say that on reaching manhood, Jeschu learnt the secret of his illegitimacy, on account of which he was driven out of the Synagogue and took refuge for a time in Galilee."[/b]

"Now, there was in the Temple a stone on which was engraved the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] or Schem Hamphorasch, that is to say, the Ineffable Name of God; this stone had been found by King David when the foundations of the Temple were being prepared and was deposited by him in the Holy of Holies.

Jeschu, knowing this, came from Galilee and, penetrating into the Holy of Holies, read the Ineffable name, which he transcribed on to a piece of whom parchment and concealed in an incision under his skin. By this means he was able to work miracles and to persuade the people that he was the son of God foretold by Isaiah.

With the aid of Judas, the Sages of the Synagogue, succeeding in capturing Jeschu, who was then lead before the Great and Little Sanhedrim, by whom he was condemned to be stoned to death and finally hanged." Such is the story of Christ according to the Jewish Kabbalists ..." 5.

This false witness to the person of Jesus in the Talmud is also confirmed by Rev. I. B. Pranaitis in his online report, The Talmud Unmasked: The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians, and other sources" 6.

Artemis

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That was interesting, not being Jewish I've never read their perspective of the story of Christ. I don't recall him being stoned, as in the traditional way, unless it was included during his walk.

You make a valid point to where to go for recorded history.

Let me ask you as I have asked here before, why do you believe Christ had never created a book of his own thought and teachings?

JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida

For one, writing a text back then was all time consuming. Word of mouth spread much faster than writing could. Most were not educated and could not read. During that time many of the people, especially the Jewish people with the Roman boot on their neck were worried about plain survival. Honestly the writings would not have survived. They would have been considered traitorous by the Romans and blasphemes by the Rabbis. The Disciples were Jesus book. Think what this man accomplished in three years. He is the most written about and vetted entity in the history of man. I thought Marcus was actually interested in a conversation but by denying their ever was a Jesus he has made his intentions clear.

Artemis

Good man! Watching a romantic comedy with your sweetheart is much better than being on OPP, right :thumbup: :wink: That would be my choice in a heartbeat :mrgreen:

beammeupscotty Loc: 31°07'50.8"N 87°27'00.8"W

My wife "made" me watch "John Wick" last nite.....i truly do live in my own little paradise!!!

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

'John Wick', huh, with Keanu Reeves :?: "Paradise"...was your candle burning at both ends afterwards :?: :wink: :lol:

beammeupscotty Loc: 31°07'50.8"N 87°27'00.8"W

Here's the real kicker....when i came in from the yard yesterday to watch the news, she said "NO, Bubba's winning, and we're not changing channels until this GOLF Tournament is over!!!!
God...I love that woman!

:thumbup:

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

Don't let go of that gal :!: :!: :!: :thumbup:

bahmer

You got a winner there.

beammeupscotty Loc: 31°07'50.8"N 87°27'00.8"W

'Til death do us part, my friend.
:thumbup:

beammeupscotty Loc: 31°07'50.8"N 87°27'00.8"W

With all the crap she puts up with outta me...i'm clearly the winner.
For some one to stick with my sorry ass like she does, it's obvious that it's a match made in heaven.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Artemis, The funny thing about history is, just when you think you know everything, history and religion, throw's you a curve ball. Then you need to rethink, your perspective of the historical accounts of Jesus Christ.

By the way I'm not Jewish, I just know my history and my Christian background and am constantly learning new things and about the Hebrew and Greek meaning of words using lexicon, concordance, dictionary's, Morphological Analysis Codes and combined biblical software, which is incredible for learning and teaching.

But sadly, this is a repeating and continual practice of ney-sayers, who repeat the same one-liner responses, to the historical validity of Jesus Christ.

Atheist, can-not even prove or rely on Darwinism, due to the scientific knowledge and scientific discoveries: from DNA examinations, Microscopy, archeology and forensic sciences ect. which has all disproven Darwinism's theory of evolution, with the use of science and scientific experimentation . . .

Just maybe, what you thought you know, about Jesus Christ, and your Christian beliefs change. And for some people their pagan beliefs, they don't change.

Just maybe, some individuals have to re-examined, and or re-evaluate the validity and authenticity of the historical Jesus Christ, being presented by various atheistic and agnostic groups out there?

And come to the conclusion and say they don't know everything ?





The knowledge of the Christians, Romans and the Jewish people religious culture and authenticity has been well recorded and vetted. And yet we still question, what has been recorded and still deny the authenticity of these written sources.

Why is that ? Are we that distrusting about the word of God ?


Religious Faith: a metaphor, is a mustard seed. Yet, it can't be proven to some, and it can't be disproven to others. A conundrum don't you think ?


a. Historically, when the Jewish religious authorities signed the documented treaties with Rome. The Jewish people gave up all authority of capital punishment, to the Roman authorities. This is why Pontius Pilate Livius, was ultimately responsible for the execution and crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

The scourging of Jesus is a different topic from Jewish and Roman terms. The Jewish scourging was 39 stroke's with a lash or reed. The Roman scourging of Jesus, was with whips and barbs, Jesus was so unrecognizable after his scourging. This has also has been authenticated by history.

This is why Jesus was hanged on the cross. And the reason for Roman crucifixion on a tree was used for a capital offense and punishment. Romans would not have used stoning, as the practice of the Jewish authority and religious tradition.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshua [the Nazarene] was hanged.

For forty days before the execution took place a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.

Now I ask you to consider this historical passage ? What was the Jewish practiced capital offense and punishment. It was stoning ! There were two references in the gospels of John, that the people and the Sanhedrin tried to stone him.

Why do you think the herald's went out and gave this message to the people. Intimidation and nothing less. Why the persecution of the early christians and Apostles. Intimidation and nothing less.

Remember that this was a Jewish political theocracy State, working with a co-Roman military occupation in Palestine, as the Roman's called the geographical area.

What was the usual practice religious heresy, apostasy and sorcery and other political and religious crimes by the jewish authorities ?

Stoning, as in the case of the Jewish woman fornicator, Stoning. In this biblical reference in John. This was a trap by the Sanhedrin, during Jesus's ministry and what was Jesus Christ's response ? "He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Very tactful of him, don't you think.

Incidentally, this was the first time that was recorded, that Jesus Christ wrote hebrew and anything down, even if it was in sand or earth. We know that Jesus Christ could read, write and speak several languages.

Jesus Christ was recorded in the gospels to have read several passages from the Jewish Hebrew Torah at the synagog in Nazareth.

Jesus Christ knew Aramaic, Egyptian, and Hebrew at age of twelve, when speaking in the Jerusalem at the Temple with Jewish scholars.

And most probably knew Greek and Roman when talking, to Pontius Pilate Livius, Roman governor of Judaea, from 26 CE to 36 CE, and was ultimately responsible for the execution and crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth. http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate01.htm

Doc110 Loc: York PA

b. Quite honestly Artemis, I don't believe that I'm that presumptuous, that I could speak for Jesus Christ on this matter.

As to the reason why Jesus did-not record or write anything down. The only thing I can say was that he was focused on salvation and his teaching ministry.


Are you having second thoughts about your question ? I've noticed from past comment, that this is also a recurring theme of yours and has not been answered ? Am I correct ? Having any doubts about his 650 plus, biblical prophetic references: Christ's birth, life and death of the Messiah ?

As with marcus's, and his belief their is no prove-able reference to the authenticity of the historical Jesus Christ. Unfortunately we have had no factual or have a intellectual discussion input from marcus, so I guess he is out of the picture for now.



Jesus did have the twelve Apostles, and I'm sure that he found many character traits and abilities for his newly founded Christian Jewish ministry. Most probably Jesus instructed his Apostles as to the course of action they to have taken during and after his death.


Tell me why did Jesus's Christian Jewish ministry succeeded and flourished with the Jew's, Samaritans, the Roman's and the pagan world ?

Why did Jesus Christ ministry succeed with-out the written words of Jesus Christ on velum or papyrus. I can't answer that question.

We see in Paul of Tarsus's letters to the 7 churches in Anatolia as to His success and in Acts' of the Apostles their success with-out the writings of Jesus Christ. Or did he have copies of them ? Or references to them.


The message and teaching by the Apostles must have been profound and compelling.


Was it his Jewish understanding of the old Testament Torah, his teaching abilities, his oration abilities, or was it, Jesus Christ's abilities to perform miracles; e.g., healing of the sick, casting out demons, feeding the masses, and raising of the dead ect. ?

What was Jesus's relationship with the people and how he related to the common folk and was beloved by the masses ?

Jesus also had another side, an adversarial condemnation of the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes ?


Or was this the the Christ, the Messiah fulfilled ? In fulfillment of Biblical prophesy's ?



I'll let you make up your own mind ?



Artemis, Just look at the oral recordings of the Old Testament teaching and oral histories, do you think they had practiced be the "Bardi" of Middle-eastern oral traditions, found commonly though all cultures ?

People were not stupid or ignorant, they just didn't have computers, recording devices or pen and paper. Their brain capacity was no different from you or I. Those people had the same intellectual capabilities that you or I have.

Oral traditions of the "Bardi" was the easiest method used by many cultures to record history and traditions, even to this present day in some cultures practice this oral method, is still being practiced around earth.

I'm sure that these twelve Apostles were not stupid people or ignorant either. Judas Iscariot had been a trained by several Jewish rabbinical schools as was Paul of Tarsus and Luke the physician.

And what was the end results of the Apostles, by these untrained unorthodox people and scholars, look what they accomplished with God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Greatest beautiful biblical book ever written and references the world has ever seen, the Gospels and letters of the New Testament.

The incredible Christian writers and their inter-weaving of biblical passages and references, prophecy of the Old and New Testament into and referenced bible. It's just incredible and divinely spirited messages from ordinary men, for all the world to read and contemplate on ?

Some Biblical references and prophecy go back over a thousand years or more.


But for practical reasons, Jesus's teaching, it would be the oral traditional methods of Oral Memory, as practiced be the "Bardi" recorded in Greek and Roman periods of ancient literature.

Bards, are a European term, from Celtic history as recorded by Julius Cesar of the French-Gaul wars, Spanish Celtic cultures, Germanic tribes and Britannia Celtic tribes, but all these culture's had a oral recorded tradition.

Look at the American Native's. But you knew that right ?

An interesting article on Oral traditions. bard.ansteorra.org/bardcraft/whatisabard.doc



The other reason would be to record on papyrus or animal vellum, it would have been cost prohibitive. As well as a scribe's to record these oral traditions. And Jesus chose a life of humble poverty and let his followers record for Christian Jewish posterity.

Thus like John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, they both related to the common poor populous and contrasted from the Scribes (politicians) Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes's religious practices above the Dead sea and where the Dead Sea scrolls were buried in 200 bC.

The Dead Sea scrolls gives us great insight from the Jewish scrolls that Essenes's recorded, that were found and taught about their religious teachings and Jewish practices of that time period.

JFlorio, touched on some of the other political and other reasons.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Did you get my answer your question ? I was hoping to here from you, re: my answers to your question. I would like to hear your thoughts ?

a. I don't recall him being stoned, as in the traditional way, unless it was included during his walk.

You make a valid point to where to go for recorded history.

b. Let me ask you, as I have asked here before,

Why do you believe Christ had never created a book of his own thought and teachings?