Workinman Loc: Bayou Pigeon

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Workinman Loc: Bayou Pigeon

Then Kevy you should kneel and Kiss his ring.

okie don

10-4

son of witless

Does this mean that the Pope is protected by armed heathens?

peter11937 Loc: NYS

Seems so.

Gener

Very fitting.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

[quote=rebob14]......."from this day, you have need to call no man father; you have one father, who is in heaven"...........The "rock" upon which the church would be built was the revelation god gave Peter, NOT Peter himself.

This deliberate mis-interpretation needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man. Read a Bible.........not the catechism![/quote]

My apologies if this is a lengthily reply, to your post thread-comment.

rebob14,

Here is a prayer that I ask you to consider, "Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians become a reality, in Your way. We have absolute confidence that you can bring your people together, we give you absolute permission to move. Amen


So “Are Catholics Christian ?”


I think it is good that Evangelicals and Catholics have lively discussions on the interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time.

Why are there are so many different Christian denominations. Presently we have over 2,800 Christian denominations and growing, and I might add, which continue to splinter from the Reformation of the Protestant Church's and other Main-line Protestant Church Organizations, at an ever-more alarming rate.

Typically in our present age, it is most probably because of women ministers and bishops, homosexual minsters and bishops and the definition of unborn life and abortions of these unprotected children of God.

Hence the Protestant name origin, "To Protest." Look at the diagram of the historical origins of Christian Churches. (Below)



rebob14, That leaves the two oldest historical churches, from the original teachings, ministry of Jesus Christ and the, The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Jesus Christ and the the seven core sacramental rites, institutions establishes by Jesus Christ and defined by the Old and New Testaments: e.g., Baptism, Confession, The Holy Eucharist, Conformation, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Healing of the Sick Holy.

These are the seven core foundations for Christian Catholic adults to live by and with a spiritual life with Jesus Christ. I believe this the most simplistic way to explain my faith. How I live my life with and the Holy Trinity of God.

a. From the beginning of Jesus Christ ministry, The Catholic Church, meaning (Universal) Church. It's Christian seven core teachings The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. e.g., see above paragraph
b. The Eastern Orthodox Church origins 1054 AD also the same original sacramental rites, institutions teachings. This is not disputed by Churches, theologians and history.

Until 1054 AD Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were branches of the same body— The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. 1054 marks the very first major division in Christianity and the beginning of present day 2,800 hundred "Christian Denominations, found here on Earth"

The two branches, disagreed over issues pertaining to the nature of the Holy Spirit, the use of icons in worship, the correct date for celebrating Easter and the authority of the Pope. Cultural differences played a major role too, with the Eastern mindset more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology.



However rebob14,

I have a big problem with any organization that says "Catholics are not Christians," because they ignoring the history and the Teaching of the Apostolic origins of the Founding Fathers and the Apostles and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Which can be found in the Holy Bible’s 73 books and the recorded teaching of Jesus Christ. By the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke, in the Acts of the Apostles and was revealed spiritually and in subsequence letters and books of the New Testament as to the validity and origin of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.

This was in fulfillment of the scriptures Old Testament prophecies of the Jewish Torah, Pentateuch and Talmudic Midrash teachings as to the validity and origin of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.

The Christian Catholic Church draws its origin’s on the early “Church Traditions” and teaching arm the "Magisterium" and the Holy Bible, to guide and teach Christian Catholics, in spirituality and faith, this is Apostolic teaching. Which has not changed, but had been refined for almost 2000 years so that Christian Catholics understand and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings and are saved.




Tell me rebob14, How many historical years does your Christian denomination teaching, go back in actual years ?

Does not your Christian denomination borrow from the Catholic Church, biblical records and compiled biblical foundations ?

Do you know that all Christian doctrine center's around the "Council of Nicea," in which this council finally defined and drafted the "Christian Bible" and the "Nicean Creed" that defined Christianity beliefs in a Christian Catholic Creed in 325, A.D. http://www.churchhistory101.com/century4-p8.php

Look at the Historical context and Church, It's origin, time-line at this website. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.php

Lets move to the next important historical event in the Western Catholic Church, the Gutenberg Bible which was a Christian Catholic Bible. The significance of Gutenberg printing press was that more Christians Catholics were able to have their own personal bible and read their personal Bibles in there own homes.

Before 1455, the Bible was very expensive to reproduce and were either copied by hand or printed from engraved wooden blocks and could take years to complete. The printing press allowed in a relatively short amount of time in many different printed Bibles, in their native European languages.

On Halloween of 1517, Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg, accusing the Roman Catholic church of heresy upon heresy.

Many people cite this act as the primary starting point of the Protestant Reformation… though to be sure, John Wycliffe, John Hus, Thomas Linacre, John Colet, and others had already put the life’s work and even their lives on the line for same cause of truth, constructing the foundation of Reform upon which Luther now built.

Luther's action was in great part a response to the selling of indulgences by Johann Tetzel, a Dominican priest. Luther's charges also directly challenged the position of the clergy in regard to individual salvation.

In 1536 Martin Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and translated the Bible from Greek into German, and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

In 1546 the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 73 books. http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. https://www.osv.com/myfaith/modelsofthefaith/article/tabid/684/artmid/13728/articleid/2565/did-the-council-of-trent-change-the-church.aspx?ref=hptopics
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm

In 1555, The Church fathers at Trent clarified but did not change Catholic teachings, they did make many lasting reforms a "Anti-Reformation" to counter and reform and change the Christian Catholic abuses and remains in force to the organization and administration of the Church. These reforms included:
- Ending the practices of simony, nepotism and pluralism.
- Every bishop was obligated to maintain high moral standards, live frugally and avoid excess.
- Requiring strict discipline within religious orders and placing monasteries under the jurisdiction of the bishop, rather than the pope.
- Giving special attention to the education of the clergy, including the goal of establishing a seminary in every diocese.
- Celibacy was upheld, bishops were responsible to select and mentor men for the priesthood, and those men could not be ordained before age 25.
- Promoting the development of the Roman Missal to standardize the Mass and a catechism containing a concise summary of Catholic beliefs which remains in effect to this date with a uniform teaching.

Currently several Main-Line Protestant Churches still follow this practice of the the Roman Missal and the churches teachings practices through the calendar year. e.g., The Anglican church and the Lutheran Church among major Christian Churches.

408 years later in 1963, was Vatican II, which has been rightly described as the most important religious event of the 20th century, and began 50 years ago today in St. Peter’s Basilica.

Over three years, from 1962 to 1965, some 2,800 bishops from 116 countries produced 16 documents that set the Roman Catholic Church’s course for the future.

Its proceedings were closely followed in the media, bringing the church into the homes of hundreds of millions of ordinary Catholics on nearly a daily basis.

What were the Christian Catholic Church changes:

-Vatican II, halting steps on governance, is that it took account of the world outside the church. The church validated for the first time the principle of religious freedom and rejected all forms of civil discrimination based on religious grounds.
-Catholics were encouraged to foster friendly relations with Orthodox and Protestant Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims, and even to pray with them. The council condemned all forms of anti-Semitism and insisted on respect for Judaism and Islam as Abrahamic faiths, like Christianity.
-The council, in its decree on the liturgy, also opened the Mass to symbols and traditions of non-Western cultures, permitting the displacement of Latin with vernacular languages.
-This reconciliatory move has played a part in the remarkable growth of the church in Africa and parts of Asia.
-The post-Vatican II church was not a different church. But if you take the long view, it seems to me incontestable that the turn was big, in implementation have made it less big in certain areas than the council intended.
-Pope John Paul II took up the work of reconciliation with the Jewish faith, the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith and many Protestant Main-line faiths.



So rebob14, let me ask you again, “Are Catholics Christian ?”

The name Christian Catholic Church predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium or approximately, 1487 years. And the Eastern Orthodox Church predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by approximately, 463 years. Do you see the historical context that I have presented.

Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics and Orthodox Churchs are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible.

The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV or King James version sticker on it. The Bible has a rich Christian Catholic history of 1487 years that all 2,800 Christian denomination borrow from. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_came.php

Any time spent studying the Church Fathers, will make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs are, Christian Catholic in origin. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/early_church_fathers.php

Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_catholics_christian.php




So let me ask you once again, “Are Catholics Christian ?”

It’s not a difficult question to answer, not because there is no answer.

But because the answer is on the one hand so obvious.

Yet if the question is being asked, you realize that the answer is not obvious at all.

In fact, you realize that the person asking the question is only doing so, because he already truly believes, that Catholics are not Christian.

Its time to research the Founding Fathers and the Christian Catholic Papal Tradition of Apostolic succession. Let history be your guide.



So rebob14, Their is way forward, which is to define what we mean by being a “Christian” ?



Catholics define “Christian” as any person who is baptized and who has faith in Jesus Christ. Most Christians from every denomination, would agree to this same wording?

This is a definition of “Christian” is a baseline. It’s a beginning foundation to move forward. Are we in agreement ?

The problem comes with Evangelical, Biblicists, who don’t actually have a clear definition of what a Christian is ?

Except to say that a “Christian” is someone who has “accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.” Or someone who has “been saved” or someone who has “asked Jesus into their heart.”

The problem with this definition is that there is no objectivity to it.



Just what does it mean to “accept Jesus into your heart” to “get saved” or “accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior”?



Very often, this means that the person in question, has had a particular type of religious experience. They have gone forward at a revival meeting or prayed the sinner’s prayer, or wept for their sins and turned to Jesus.

It doesn’t take long to see, that if this is the criteria for being a “Christian” then (allowing for a few slight differences in language) that most Catholics have done precisely this.

If the sinner’s prayer, is a way of rejecting the world, the flesh and the devil and believing in Christ as Savior and Lord, then this is precisely what happens within the Catholic baptism rite, their adult spiritual life, and the seven core sacramental rites, establishes by Jesus Christ and defined by the Old and New Testaments.



Here is another Christian theology example, that I suggest you to consider.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples, John 20:21.

21. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
22, And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23,"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Most Evangelicals really don't like this quoted passage from the bible. Jesus Christ's words are not disputed here, they are forcibly spoken with authority and eloquent as to the origins of Christian Catholic sacramental confession and the forgiveness of sins.

Repenting of one’s sins and accepting the forgiveness of Christ is precisely what happens when a Catholic goes to confession. Repenting of sins and accepting Christ is precisely what happens at Christian Catholic Mass.

The Evangelical is not comfortable with this, because it all happens with “somebody just reading prayers out of a book.”

But why should the Catholic liturgy with set prayers and set music and hymns be any worse than the “liturgy” of the Evangelical preacher who follows a set formula for preaching, for giving the altar call and using the same emotional music (Just As I Am Without One Plea)

The Christian Catholic Church has been practicing this for almost 2000 years.

Are not both liturgical set pieces? I believe and think they are.




So, are Catholics Christian? Of course Catholics are Christian.

a. They’ve repented of their sins.
b. They’ve accepted the forgiveness of Christ.
c. They’ve rejected the world, the flesh and the devil.
d. They’ decided to follow Christ within the faith of the Catholic Church and e. Apostolic Biblical teaching origins of the Founding Fathers and of Jesus Christ.

There is a very good comparison between Evangelical and Catholic Christianity read the book "More Christianity."

More Christianity explores the fullness of the Christian faith in the Catholic Church. "More Christianity" calls Evangelical Christians to come “further up and further in” to the Catholic Church.

This is a friendly explanation of Catholicism for Evangelical Christians. And is a take-off from C.S.Lewis's famous book with a similar name.

C.S.Lewis, famous book "Mere Christianity" gave radio lectures during WWII addressing the central issues of what Christianity is. "Mere Christianity" explains by a rational basis for Christianity and builds an edifice of compassionate morality atop this foundation.

I surge you to read these two books. They are a wonderful read and for you to learn from your Christian origins.

C.S.Lewis, a Protestant clearly demonstrates, Christianity is not a religion of flitting angels and blind faith, but of free will, an innate sense of justice and the grace of God. Here is a free audio online version of the book. http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/apologetics/mere-christianity/cs-lewis-mere-christianity-toc.php

The two books compare the Evangelical way of looking at some aspect of Christian tradition and show how Catholicism does not contradict the Evangelical’s faith, but fulfills and complete's it.

The question therefore is not, “Are Catholics Christian” or “Are Evangelical Protestants Christian” but How much of the Christian faith do you embrace ?

Evangelicals tend to follow a reduced, minimalist version of the faith.

Catholics wish to have it all.

It's kind of like this analogy, "Think a cheese cracker and water" or "a five course Italian banquet." I know which I’d prefer.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/03/are-catholics-christian.html




So rebob14, The confusion is cased by the fact that different groups define the term Christian differently. Would you not agree ?

A Catholic would define a Christian as anyone who professes faith in Christ and who has been validly baptized (water baptism).

Many Protestants do not use or have the same vocabulary defining the term Christian and or Catholic Christians in this way.




Different denominations have different criteria for determining who is a Christian—e.g., Christians are those who have "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" or those who profess to be saved "by faith alone."

Since Catholics don’t generally use this vocabulary language, they classify Catholics as non-Christians (though many are willing to concede that some Catholics are Christians, even though they don’t use this language).

Catholics have have "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" or those who profess to be saved "By faith and by good-works."

"Is the definition of being saved by Jesus Christ by "faith and by good-works," a either or socratic method, or is it, and-or-both ?

Catholic Christians believe that we are "Saved by Faith" and by "Good-Works."

James 2:14-26, Faith Without Works Is Dead.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.



So, once again I ask you, are Catholics Christian ? Of course Catholics are Christian.



rebob14, Your approach in defining Christian Catholic's is is what is at issue here.

That the Christian Catholic Church is a deliberate mis-interpretation, and needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been. I question your validity to even suggest this argument.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man.

rebob14,, What kind of nonsense are you talking about ?

Christian Catholics biblical reference for the the Pope is, Matthew 16:18 Peter's Confession of Christ. If you know the messianic Old Testament understanding of the keys from the kings of Israel and their Kings Chief steward who ran the Jewish kingdom for the Kings of Israel.

[color=red]The you would understood, the message of the "Keys of the kingdom" in the Old Testament and their correlation to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Then you would understand the teaching of the doctrine of the 266 Pope's and the Apostolic succession.

Then you might come to understand the Christian Catholic Church teaching and It's almost 2,000 year traditions. And you would not say this blanket statement that we worship the Pope.

I hope this clarifies your Christian Catholic misunderstanding.


Jesus Christ gave stewardship the keys of his church to Peter, in Matthew 16:18. We Christian Catholic do not worship the Pope. He has been given spiritual leadership of the Christian Catholic Church and thats all. He is a man, and with all men and women, we all sin.

Here is a interesting quotation. To the Christian we know, from Romans 1:5,6 That we are, if we are true Christians, in just as much authority as Peter and the others. We must be ever active to give the gospel out by our efforts to loose (give out) we communicate the Good News to others.

In our silence we bind (withhold) that awesome news to others. To the Non-Christian as long as he refuses to hear the good news, and has no desire to have understanding of the Kingdom, he is shut out with hell as their destination.

Matthew 16:18 Peter's Confession of Christ

17, And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…




Read a Bible.........not the catechism! deliberate mis-interpretation needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man. Read a Bible.........not the catechism!




rebob14, We Christian Catholics read the bible all the time e.g., I personally own The Ignatius Bible, Vulgate Bible, the NAB Bible, The NRSV Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, the Douay–Rheims Bible and the New King James version Bible. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

In the end, there may not be a need to select only one translation of the Bible to use. It is often possible to get a better sense of what is being said in a passage by comparing several different translations.

So, which Bible is the best? Perhaps the best answer is this: The one you’ll read.




So, once again I ask you, are Catholics Christian ?

Of course Catholics are Christian. Yes they are, the Catholics Christian may not come under your belief and definition of what your Christian Church theology and understanding is.

So be it, to your opinion. I have provided you a historical and spiritual balance of Catholic Christianity.

(1) Catholics are Christians;
(2) the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and which he said would never pass away (Mt 16:18).
(3) when Scripture speaks of Christians it speaks of every church member as a Christian, no matter what his "walk with God" may be like.
(4) Christians throughout history have always recognized baptism as the method by which one becomes a Christian.

rebob14, It was not until after the Protestant Reformation was underway, that people denied this these Christian beliefs.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-some-protestant-denominations-not-consider-catholics-to-be-christians-and-how-

So, are Catholics Christian? Of course Catholics are Christian.

ebob14,

Here is a prayer, that I ask you to consider saying this prayer, "Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians become a reality, in Your way. We have absolute confidence that you can bring your people together, we give you absolute permission to move. Amen

Sicilianthing

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He's protected by Brainwashed Stupid Minions just like the Detail that covers Bath House Faggot Muslim Asshole Barry & the Bankster Clan... for further evidence of the Goons you can Google the BilderBerg event in Austria this past week...

The line of tolerance gets thinner and thinner between those who know and those who continue to get a paycheck for their services...

HINT !

Sicilianthing

[quote=Doc110][/color]

My apologies if this is a lengthily reply, to your post thread-comment.

rebob14,

Here is a prayer that I ask you to consider, "Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians become a reality, in Your way. We have absolute confidence that you can bring your people together, we give you absolute permission to move. Amen


So “Are Catholics Christian ?”


I think it is good that Evangelicals and Catholics have lively discussions on the interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time.

Why are there are so many different Christian denominations. Presently we have over 2,800 Christian denominations and growing, and I might add, which continue to splinter from the Reformation of the Protestant Church's and other Main-line Protestant Church Organizations, at an ever-more alarming rate.

Typically in our present age, it is most probably because of women ministers and bishops, homosexual minsters and bishops and the definition of unborn life and abortions of these unprotected children of God.

Hence the Protestant name origin, "To Protest." Look at the diagram of the historical origins of Christian Churches. (Below)



rebob14, That leaves the two oldest historical churches, from the original teachings, ministry of Jesus Christ and the, The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Jesus Christ and the the seven core sacramental rites, institutions establishes by Jesus Christ and defined by the Old and New Testaments: e.g., Baptism, Confession, The Holy Eucharist, Conformation, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Healing of the Sick Holy.

These are the seven core foundations for Christian Catholic adults to live by and with a spiritual life with Jesus Christ. I believe this the most simplistic way to explain my faith. How I live my life with and the Holy Trinity of God.

a. From the beginning of Jesus Christ ministry, The Catholic Church, meaning (Universal) Church. It's Christian seven core teachings The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. e.g., see above paragraph
b. The Eastern Orthodox Church origins 1054 AD also the same original sacramental rites, institutions teachings. This is not disputed by Churches, theologians and history.

Until 1054 AD Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were branches of the same body— The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. 1054 marks the very first major division in Christianity and the beginning of present day 2,800 hundred "Christian Denominations, found here on Earth"

The two branches, disagreed over issues pertaining to the nature of the Holy Spirit, the use of icons in worship, the correct date for celebrating Easter and the authority of the Pope. Cultural differences played a major role too, with the Eastern mindset more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology.



However rebob14,

I have a big problem with any organization that says "Catholics are not Christians," because they ignoring the history and the Teaching of the Apostolic origins of the Founding Fathers and the Apostles and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Which can be found in the Holy Bible’s 73 books and the recorded teaching of Jesus Christ. By the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke, in the Acts of the Apostles and was revealed spiritually and in subsequence letters and books of the New Testament as to the validity and origin of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.

This was in fulfillment of the scriptures Old Testament prophecies of the Jewish Torah, Pentateuch and Talmudic Midrash teachings as to the validity and origin of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.

The Christian Catholic Church draws its origin’s on the early “Church Traditions” and teaching arm the "Magisterium" and the Holy Bible, to guide and teach Christian Catholics, in spirituality and faith, this is Apostolic teaching. Which has not changed, but had been refined for almost 2000 years so that Christian Catholics understand and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings and are saved.




Tell me rebob14, How many historical years does your Christian denomination teaching, go back in actual years ?

Does not your Christian denomination borrow from the Catholic Church, biblical records and compiled biblical foundations ?

Do you know that all Christian doctrine center's around the "Council of Nicea," in which this council finally defined and drafted the "Christian Bible" and the "Nicean Creed" that defined Christianity beliefs in a Christian Catholic Creed in 325, A.D. http://www.churchhistory101.com/century4-p8.php

Look at the Historical context and Church, It's origin, time-line at this website. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.php

Lets move to the next important historical event in the Western Catholic Church, the Gutenberg Bible which was a Christian Catholic Bible. The significance of Gutenberg printing press was that more Christians Catholics were able to have their own personal bible and read their personal Bibles in there own homes.

Before 1455, the Bible was very expensive to reproduce and were either copied by hand or printed from engraved wooden blocks and could take years to complete. The printing press allowed in a relatively short amount of time in many different printed Bibles, in their native European languages.

On Halloween of 1517, Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg, accusing the Roman Catholic church of heresy upon heresy.

Many people cite this act as the primary starting point of the Protestant Reformation… though to be sure, John Wycliffe, John Hus, Thomas Linacre, John Colet, and others had already put the life’s work and even their lives on the line for same cause of truth, constructing the foundation of Reform upon which Luther now built.

Luther's action was in great part a response to the selling of indulgences by Johann Tetzel, a Dominican priest. Luther's charges also directly challenged the position of the clergy in regard to individual salvation.

In 1536 Martin Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and translated the Bible from Greek into German, and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

In 1546 the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 73 books. http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. https://www.osv.com/myfaith/modelsofthefaith/article/tabid/684/artmid/13728/articleid/2565/did-the-council-of-trent-change-the-church.aspx?ref=hptopics
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm

In 1555, The Church fathers at Trent clarified but did not change Catholic teachings, they did make many lasting reforms a "Anti-Reformation" to counter and reform and change the Christian Catholic abuses and remains in force to the organization and administration of the Church. These reforms included:
- Ending the practices of simony, nepotism and pluralism.
- Every bishop was obligated to maintain high moral standards, live frugally and avoid excess.
- Requiring strict discipline within religious orders and placing monasteries under the jurisdiction of the bishop, rather than the pope.
- Giving special attention to the education of the clergy, including the goal of establishing a seminary in every diocese.
- Celibacy was upheld, bishops were responsible to select and mentor men for the priesthood, and those men could not be ordained before age 25.
- Promoting the development of the Roman Missal to standardize the Mass and a catechism containing a concise summary of Catholic beliefs which remains in effect to this date with a uniform teaching.

Currently several Main-Line Protestant Churches still follow this practice of the the Roman Missal and the churches teachings practices through the calendar year. e.g., The Anglican church and the Lutheran Church among major Christian Churches.

408 years later in 1963, was Vatican II, which has been rightly described as the most important religious event of the 20th century, and began 50 years ago today in St. Peter’s Basilica.

Over three years, from 1962 to 1965, some 2,800 bishops from 116 countries produced 16 documents that set the Roman Catholic Church’s course for the future.

Its proceedings were closely followed in the media, bringing the church into the homes of hundreds of millions of ordinary Catholics on nearly a daily basis.

What were the Christian Catholic Church changes:

-Vatican II, halting steps on governance, is that it took account of the world outside the church. The church validated for the first time the principle of religious freedom and rejected all forms of civil discrimination based on religious grounds.
-Catholics were encouraged to foster friendly relations with Orthodox and Protestant Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims, and even to pray with them. The council condemned all forms of anti-Semitism and insisted on respect for Judaism and Islam as Abrahamic faiths, like Christianity.
-The council, in its decree on the liturgy, also opened the Mass to symbols and traditions of non-Western cultures, permitting the displacement of Latin with vernacular languages.
-This reconciliatory move has played a part in the remarkable growth of the church in Africa and parts of Asia.
-The post-Vatican II church was not a different church. But if you take the long view, it seems to me incontestable that the turn was big, in implementation have made it less big in certain areas than the council intended.
-Pope John Paul II took up the work of reconciliation with the Jewish faith, the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith and many Protestant Main-line faiths.



So rebob14, let me ask you again, “Are Catholics Christian ?”

The name Christian Catholic Church predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium or approximately, 1487 years. And the Eastern Orthodox Church predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by approximately, 463 years. Do you see the historical context that I have presented.

Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics and Orthodox Churchs are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible.

The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV or King James version sticker on it. The Bible has a rich Christian Catholic history of 1487 years that all 2,800 Christian denomination borrow from. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_came.php

Any time spent studying the Church Fathers, will make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs are, Christian Catholic in origin. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/early_church_fathers.php

Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example. http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_catholics_christian.php




So let me ask you once again, “Are Catholics Christian ?”

It’s not a difficult question to answer, not because there is no answer.

But because the answer is on the one hand so obvious.

Yet if the question is being asked, you realize that the answer is not obvious at all.

In fact, you realize that the person asking the question is only doing so, because he already truly believes, that Catholics are not Christian.

Its time to research the Founding Fathers and the Christian Catholic Papal Tradition of Apostolic succession. Let history be your guide.



So rebob14, Their is way forward, which is to define what we mean by being a “Christian” ?



Catholics define “Christian” as any person who is baptized and who has faith in Jesus Christ. Most Christians from every denomination, would agree to this same wording?

This is a definition of “Christian” is a baseline. It’s a beginning foundation to move forward. Are we in agreement ?

The problem comes with Evangelical, Biblicists, who don’t actually have a clear definition of what a Christian is ?

Except to say that a “Christian” is someone who has “accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.” Or someone who has “been saved” or someone who has “asked Jesus into their heart.”

The problem with this definition is that there is no objectivity to it.



Just what does it mean to “accept Jesus into your heart” to “get saved” or “accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior”?



Very often, this means that the person in question, has had a particular type of religious experience. They have gone forward at a revival meeting or prayed the sinner’s prayer, or wept for their sins and turned to Jesus.

It doesn’t take long to see, that if this is the criteria for being a “Christian” then (allowing for a few slight differences in language) that most Catholics have done precisely this.

If the sinner’s prayer, is a way of rejecting the world, the flesh and the devil and believing in Christ as Savior and Lord, then this is precisely what happens within the Catholic baptism rite, their adult spiritual life, and the seven core sacramental rites, establishes by Jesus Christ and defined by the Old and New Testaments.



Here is another Christian theology example, that I suggest you to consider.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples, John 20:21.

21. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
22, And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23,"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Most Evangelicals really don't like this quoted passage from the bible. Jesus Christ's words are not disputed here, they are forcibly spoken with authority and eloquent as to the origins of Christian Catholic sacramental confession and the forgiveness of sins.

Repenting of one’s sins and accepting the forgiveness of Christ is precisely what happens when a Catholic goes to confession. Repenting of sins and accepting Christ is precisely what happens at Christian Catholic Mass.

The Evangelical is not comfortable with this, because it all happens with “somebody just reading prayers out of a book.”

But why should the Catholic liturgy with set prayers and set music and hymns be any worse than the “liturgy” of the Evangelical preacher who follows a set formula for preaching, for giving the altar call and using the same emotional music (Just As I Am Without One Plea)

The Christian Catholic Church has been practicing this for almost 2000 years.

Are not both liturgical set pieces? I believe and think they are.




So, are Catholics Christian? Of course Catholics are Christian.

a. They’ve repented of their sins.
b. They’ve accepted the forgiveness of Christ.
c. They’ve rejected the world, the flesh and the devil.
d. They’ decided to follow Christ within the faith of the Catholic Church and e. Apostolic Biblical teaching origins of the Founding Fathers and of Jesus Christ.

There is a very good comparison between Evangelical and Catholic Christianity read the book "More Christianity."

More Christianity explores the fullness of the Christian faith in the Catholic Church. "More Christianity" calls Evangelical Christians to come “further up and further in” to the Catholic Church.

This is a friendly explanation of Catholicism for Evangelical Christians. And is a take-off from C.S.Lewis's famous book with a similar name.

C.S.Lewis, famous book "Mere Christianity" gave radio lectures during WWII addressing the central issues of what Christianity is. "Mere Christianity" explains by a rational basis for Christianity and builds an edifice of compassionate morality atop this foundation.

I surge you to read these two books. They are a wonderful read and for you to learn from your Christian origins.

C.S.Lewis, a Protestant clearly demonstrates, Christianity is not a religion of flitting angels and blind faith, but of free will, an innate sense of justice and the grace of God. Here is a free audio online version of the book. http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/apologetics/mere-christianity/cs-lewis-mere-christianity-toc.php

The two books compare the Evangelical way of looking at some aspect of Christian tradition and show how Catholicism does not contradict the Evangelical’s faith, but fulfills and complete's it.

The question therefore is not, “Are Catholics Christian” or “Are Evangelical Protestants Christian” but How much of the Christian faith do you embrace ?

Evangelicals tend to follow a reduced, minimalist version of the faith.

Catholics wish to have it all.

It's kind of like this analogy, "Think a cheese cracker and water" or "a five course Italian banquet." I know which I’d prefer.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/03/are-catholics-christian.html




So rebob14, The confusion is cased by the fact that different groups define the term Christian differently. Would you not agree ?

A Catholic would define a Christian as anyone who professes faith in Christ and who has been validly baptized (water baptism).

Many Protestants do not use or have the same vocabulary defining the term Christian and or Catholic Christians in this way.




Different denominations have different criteria for determining who is a Christian—e.g., Christians are those who have "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" or those who profess to be saved "by faith alone."

Since Catholics don’t generally use this vocabulary language, they classify Catholics as non-Christians (though many are willing to concede that some Catholics are Christians, even though they don’t use this language).

Catholics have have "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" or those who profess to be saved "By faith and by good-works."

"Is the definition of being saved by Jesus Christ by "faith and by good-works," a either or socratic method, or is it, and-or-both ?

Catholic Christians believe that we are "Saved by Faith" and by "Good-Works."

James 2:14-26, Faith Without Works Is Dead.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.



So, once again I ask you, are Catholics Christian ? Of course Catholics are Christian.



rebob14, Your approach in defining Christian Catholic's is is what is at issue here.

That the Christian Catholic Church is a deliberate mis-interpretation, and needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been. I question your validity to even suggest this argument.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man.

rebob14,, What kind of nonsense are you talking about ?

Christian Catholics biblical reference for the the Pope is, Matthew 16:18 Peter's Confession of Christ. If you know the messianic Old Testament understanding of the keys from the kings of Israel and their Kings Chief steward who ran the Jewish kingdom for the Kings of Israel.

[color=red]The you would understood, the message of the "Keys of the kingdom" in the Old Testament and their correlation to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Then you would understand the teaching of the doctrine of the 266 Pope's and the Apostolic succession.

Then you might come to understand the Christian Catholic Church teaching and It's almost 2,000 year traditions. And you would not say this blanket statement that we worship the Pope.

I hope this clarifies your Christian Catholic misunderstanding.


Jesus Christ gave stewardship the keys of his church to Peter, in Matthew 16:18. We Christian Catholic do not worship the Pope. He has been given spiritual leadership of the Christian Catholic Church and thats all. He is a man, and with all men and women, we all sin.

Here is a interesting quotation. To the Christian we know, from Romans 1:5,6 That we are, if we are true Christians, in just as much authority as Peter and the others. We must be ever active to give the gospel out by our efforts to loose (give out) we communicate the Good News to others.

In our silence we bind (withhold) that awesome news to others. To the Non-Christian as long as he refuses to hear the good news, and has no desire to have understanding of the Kingdom, he is shut out with hell as their destination.

Matthew 16:18 Peter's Confession of Christ

17, And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…




Read a Bible.........not the catechism! deliberate mis-interpretation needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man. Read a Bible.........not the catechism!




rebob14, We Christian Catholics read the bible all the time e.g., I personally own The Ignatius Bible, Vulgate Bible, the NAB Bible, The NRSV Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, the Douay–Rheims Bible and the New King James version Bible. http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

In the end, there may not be a need to select only one translation of the Bible to use. It is often possible to get a better sense of what is being said in a passage by comparing several different translations.

So, which Bible is the best? Perhaps the best answer is this: The one you’ll read.




So, once again I ask you, are Catholics Christian ?

Of course Catholics are Christian. Yes they are, the Catholics Christian may not come under your belief and definition of what your Christian Church theology and understanding is.

So be it, to your opinion. I have provided you a historical and spiritual balance of Catholic Christianity.

(1) Catholics are Christians;
(2) the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and which he said would never pass away (Mt 16:18).
(3) when Scripture speaks of Christians it speaks of every church member as a Christian, no matter what his "walk with God" may be like.
(4) Christians throughout history have always recognized baptism as the method by which one becomes a Christian.

rebob14, It was not until after the Protestant Reformation was underway, that people denied this these Christian beliefs.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-some-protestant-denominations-not-consider-catholics-to-be-christians-and-how-

So, are Catholics Christian? Of course Catholics are Christian.

ebob14,

Here is a prayer, that I ask you to consider saying this prayer, "Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians become a reality, in Your way. We have absolute confidence that you can bring your people together, we give you absolute permission to move. Amen[/quote]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's some pretty tricked out stuff... hmmm I'm gonna send it around see what the peeps say...

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Sorry I just responded to another post-thread, its kinda long and lengthy.

But I needed to respond, It's in this thread, just scroll down.


rebob14......."from this day, you have need to call no man father; you have one father, who is in heaven"...........The "rock" upon which the church would be built was the revelation god gave Peter, NOT Peter himself.

This deliberate mis-interpretation needs to be, finally, put to rest. Catholics are not Christians and have never been.

To follow this "pope" is to worship a man. Read a Bible.........not the catechism!


I hope this answers your question, on any misinterpretation Re; the Pope.

He is a spiritual leader, he is also a man, who is not infallible and has made some area whoppers these past few days.

Yes, he has made an error in judgment on "Gun Control" "Climate-Change "Global Warming" and I'm not particularly fond of his hypocritical income inequality statements either.

He may even be a Socialist-Marxist, but I don't know.

But this is a new Pope, who has a different style from the past Pope's.

He has a progressive un-orthodox, political-social teaching style.

I agree with his vow of poverty and not judging others, and changing the Vatican banking and ending ties to the Italian mafia.

But his comments on the secular and humanist world should be kept to him self, and focus on the Christianity spiritual theology teaching.

Christians need more more help more than ever, we are being assaulted on a daily basis for our morals and faith. It won't be long before the persecution begins in this country, we are seeing bits and pieces, incrementally.



Pope, Francis, is no John-Paul II.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

That's some pretty tricked out stuff...

hmmm I'm gonna send it around see what the peeps say...



It's more factual, than "tricked out stuff", hopefully i've done the an okay research and explanation to provide factual information to rebob14 legations.
I've provided Biblical and historical references and anecdotal response with a smidgeon of Socratic reasoning. A + B = C if you catch my pun.

It took me a while to research and come up with the facts and quotes.

But it should dispel the Protestantism belief that Catholic's are not Christians.

But you have freewill to believe what you want.

Remember that Pope's come and go, there have been six Pope's in my lifetime. Their men, and they make incredible mistake sometimes.

How about this one big mistakes by past Pope's.

From Pope Benedict XIV, quoted in 2006, not that I don't agree with this quotation from the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos in the 14 century.

Who said, “show me just what Muhammad brought, that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword, the faith he preached.” Kinda got the Muslims rilled up.

Right on the Mark in my military opinion.

Sicilianthing

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm not proficient in any of this like you write...
I was baptized twice, first holy communion, alter boy for years, confirmation, catholic private schools my whole life... Studied in a German prep school, an American Embassy school... mostly all religious Catholic influences around all the time... every holiday, big Italian meals after meals after meals..

Prayer time, pray for this, pray for that, pray again and then prayers for that prayer...

It wasn't until later that came about all this other stuff blown up on the big screen like we're dealing with now, Christians vs Catholics and the rest of the tribes...?

Whatever happens... it's all driven by the Agenda of the Sick n twisted Bankster NWO Clan... which involves the POPE and the Muzzy Head as their balancing factions over the FOOLISH Ignorant slobification of the masses.

GAME OVER, people aren't gonna put up with this shit anymore.

Gener

As far as Catholics go, some are Christian, and some are not. Especially those in power are not. They are deeply involved with the New World Order. The jargon the Pope is using comes straight from the New World Order, and there is a new twist to it now. If you don't agree with what the leaders are saying, Science or whatever, you are "Science deniers, of whatever the admin wants to call you deniers of." It is just another way to shut off free speech and force everyone to believe what the elite want them to believe. The Catholic Church has done this for centuries. Anyone who disagreed with the Church was subject to torture, and then death, even if they recanted. I am not anti Catholic laity, only anti Catholic structure.

By the way, the Catholic Church has an extremely powerful telescope mechanism on top of Mount Graham, in Arizona, and they say they are looking for something, expecting something. There is a lot that goes on behind the background in the RC Church. This mountain was always sacred to the Indians of Arizona, and was considered a portal, or a gateway to the stars. Something is coming our way. The mountain is cordoned off and they don't allow visitors, except a few who are given special permission. There are many secrets in this world, and many secret societies, some very devious. And most people have no clue what is really going on.

Sicilianthing

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Hmmmmm awesome info... I'll have to check that out...

Doc110 Loc: York PA

But do you still have your faith in God ? I still remain stead fast in my faith.

I read a lot, and came from a strict Irish Catholic family background, and have taught adult classes, RICA and children Sunday school. I really enjoy history, and religion learning new facts all the time and relating these historical facts to all religions and did a little soul searching when I was younger.

But returned always back to my Christian Catholic roots. Maybe I should have been a priest, but that was not my calling in life. I've only read the Bible from cover to cover, six or more times, and I learn something new every time. It's the Holy spirit, reaching out to each and every one's soul.

I don't get to excited, most people are misinformed, and just repeat what others spout off . They just fail to do the research and learn the tenants of their Faith accurately and did not do the analysis to understand more in a deeper spiritual way.


Check out these websites the first one is you have 2,000 year library
at your fingertips. http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

The other one is a free audio books By Chuck Misstler and biblical prophesy very interesting stuff. Re-live Genesis all over again with a good analytical explanation and biblical and jewish word references. Re-learn the judges and the prophets and their amazing predictions and how the old and new testaments relate to one another.

You'll learn a lot. It's all about learning every day. http://www.allaboutgod.com/chuck-missler.htm

Their have always been good and poor Popes, Your Faith is God is the most encouraging thing in our lives.

Remain faithful, we are not apart of this world or called to be of this world, but are called to be a sours of illumination in this dark hedonistic world.