Mr Bombastic

Do you know anyone who has never sinned? I don't. Thus, everyone has a sinful nature. It's part of the human condition.

You ask what kind of sacrifice it was? It was the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus, the Son of God, who never knew pain or hardship, was born into a human existence. He knew the full range of human suffering, including the death of the Cross. The most excruciating death that Rome could devise. He suffered as few have suffered. He was whipped to an inch of His life. He had nails driven through His hands and feet. Do you know how people who are crucified actually die? They suffocate. The way they are hung prevents them from breathing. They can take the pressure off of their arms by supporting themselves on that nail driven through their feet. Painful, to say the least. But their legs tire, and they go back to slowly suffocating. On top of all that, Jesus took on the sins of the world. Past, present and future. Every petty, brutal, vicious sin imaginable. He, who knew no sin, did this for us. How can you say that He did not suffer? You are speaking from ignorance. I pity you.

thinksense

"He had nails driven through His hands and feet."

This is a very easy to refute statement. Assuming Jesus even existed outside of superstitious tales, if he were hung on a cross as depicted and nails were driven through his hands to hold him to the cross, he would have fallen off the cross. You can not find any way to place nails through the hand that would not tear through the tissues of the hand the moment his weight were placed upon them and the victim would fall off the cross..

In Roman times the most common cross bar crucifixion was to tie his wrists to the cross bar.

(BTW, "crucifixions" were rare, most of these executions involved a straight post, with the victim's hands tied above his head. Cross bars were expensive, difficult and time consuming to put together. The reason the Roman Catholic Church chose the cross as a symbol was that it has a psychological effect on humans. There are certain shapes that trigger a subconscious effect of momentary shock. The cross with the crossbar off center toward the top or bottom is one of these shapes. People who have large white s below their pupils are another such. If you know a doctor trained in Applied Kinesiology, ask him to demonstrate this effect.)

“Jesus, the Son of God, who never knew pain or hardship, was born into a human existence.” I know of no human that ever resurrected. I think that most human’s I’ve told that they would resurrect in 3 days to live in luxury for the rest of time would be happy to accept a temporary “horrible death” to gain that prize.

“He had nails driven through His hands and feet.” Again seldom if ever were the feet “nailed”. Remember that the nails would soon tear through th soft tissue. Instead sometimes a block of wood would be placed under the feet and the ankles tied to the post. Usually the ankles were tied without under support. You don’t need the legs to tire to cause cramping of the respiratory muscles, thereby suffocating the victim. You just don’t want them kicking around.

Finally, just what is your though on what your church calls “SIN”.

Is it that anything the church or it’s chosen writings forbid is a sin? If you are going by it’s history, the most sinful people would have to be churchmen, don’t you think? They certainly do not seem to live a sinless life.

Mr Bombastic

I could refute everything you said, but I'm thinking your mind is made up already. But I will say that the nails were placed through the joint that connects the hand to the arm. Plenty of support there. Also, the Crucifixion was witnessed by the Disciples, who gave first hand written accounts. That is a historical record, whether or not you believe it. You should also be asking yourself why there are Christians if there wasn't a Christ. The apostles were tortured and k**led because they preached about a risen Savior. Now ask yourself. Would they have gone through that for a lie? Think about it. No one will die for a lie. No one. They watched him die, then rise from the grave, along with over 500 witnesses. You believe what you like. I'll trust in my Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ.

thinksense

“I could refute everything you said, but I'm thinking your mind is made up already.”

Actually it is not “made up”. I just see the evil done to ordinary people by the various religions and some of their adherents and wonder how people could be so mislead. What do you think of a priest who molests children. Who’s church leaders hide this, from the authorities, and the public for many years and keep the offending priest in positions where his crimes can continue? Or one who delights in torturing people, and stealing their earthly goods. Or one who sends people into other lands to k**l people because they have been taught to believe a different religion. I could go on but I don’t think I need to, as I’m sure you know what I mean.

"But I will say that the nails were placed through the joint that connects the hand to the arm. Plenty of support there."

Ahh. That is not the same as the HAND, is it?
As for nails through the wrist, or carpal/radial/ulnar articulation, you would still have the nails tear through the tissue, though it might take a little longer. Moreover that would not be the main reason for not using nails.

Nails had to be hand made and were very expensive, so if you check real records in history closely you will find little mention of them in any of the governmental records regarding use in crucifixion. Certainly not in a Jewish complaint case, where the judge was glad to wash his hands of the buzzing little insect complaint. At least I have not been able to find any such record. And if one sentence in the Bible is wrong, it is only logical that other sentences are wrong, whether in the original Aramaic or any of the t***slations.

“the Crucifixion was witnessed by the Disciples, who gave first hand written accounts.”

And how do you know that? How do you know who wrote the myths, and when, that were accepted to make up the Christian Bible 300 years after the incident of “Christ’s Crucifixion”? And what about the books that were not accepted. to be included. What was wrong with them? And have you ever actually seen and read the so called “original” books? Do you read Aramaic, or do you have to rely on one of the various t***slations of that “Holy Book”. And the interpretation your religious leader gives it?

You are too smart to not ask yourself those questions, so I can not see you being so dogmatic unless you were hypnotized by brain washing techniques used by the various religions.

“The apostles were tortured and k**led because they preached about a risen Savior.” Now ask yourself. Would they have gone through that for a lie? Think about it. No one will die for a lie. No one.”

First, since you weren’t there, you have only been told that ever happened. I would question your authority with regard to those incidents.

Second, “Now ask yourself. Would they have gone through that for a lie? Think about it. No one will die for a lie. No one.”

Have you ever been in combat?. If you were, why were you there, k*****g total strangers?
I’ve asked myself this question and do not like the answer. Someone lied to me and to my enemy also and we went at each other with h**e and fury. Not heroism, just misguidedness. And the elite got richer and more powerful.


I guess the suicide bombers of the Muslims don’t die because they believe lies, they just like to do it, right?

"I'll trust in my Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ."

WHY? Since in the history of myths, this Jesus Christ was just one of many. We don't even celebrate his birthday on the right day. And we are supposed to believe terrible things will happen to our energy field after we die if we don't believe...without question?

Mr Bombastic

I was going to respond to all of that, but it would be a waste of time. Believe wh**ever makes you happy, and I'll do the same. I'd like to recommend a book for you to read. It is by a former atheist, called more than a carpenter. It was written by a former atheist. His name is Josh McDowell. He has other books too, like Evidence That Demands a Verdict. A little history. In college, he was challenged, by some Christians he knew, to prove that God doesn't exist. He accepted the challenge. This guy is a Rhodes Scholar. Very educated. He looked at the evidence and became a Christian. Maybe I should issue the same challenge. Try to prove God doesn't exist. Not to me, or anyone else, but to yourself. Use every resource available. Do some research, and keep an open mind. You might be surprised. Just like Josh McDowell was.

LPgee

Hello Richard!
You had me imagining an Earth without men ..and women.
An Earth minus bipeds like you and me is an Earth sans excitement.
Man was the last created by the Godly majic of simply breathing into a piece of clay and presto: Adam!
But then ... you won't believe that too. Haha. I like your objections.

thinksense

Mr. B.

Thank you for today's polite discussion.

I want to say that I do not question God's existence. Where evidence of intelligence exists there must be some sort of intelligent entity. As a doctor I know that there is such an intelligent entity, I have seen it at work too much to doubt, and have no problem accepting that, or in seeing others accept that. I just want to point out the con jobs that are being pulled on humans, using the God con.

Religionists, who pretend to know more than anyone else, and then gouge money, or other things out of their adherents are among the worst kind of crooks that the human race has produced. They cause more trouble and get away with more evil than any other population. They are what need to be exposed, and so I write on these strings.

Did you ever play the kids game where you whisper a story into one kid’s ear and he whispers his version of that story to the next kid in the circle, and so on around the circle until it got back to you, and was totally different than what you had told originally. That’s the Bible.

There is an unusual method of healing people of emotionally caused illness, which is based upon the fact that about 80% of illness involves/is caused by emotional stress. If you saw it in action you would think the practitioner and her patient were definitely insane, as they mutter certain words while tapping on different parts of their body. Yet this technique first developed by a psychiatrist, and further developed by a lay person, works remarkably well, averaging 80% “cure”, on formerly incurable cases. (I have taught this to some of my patients, though I did not use it very often while in practice. Not my field.) It is called Emotional Freedom Technique, or EFT....Google it if you want.

Be honest with yourself. If you had heard or read that a being from outer space had landed and seduced a woman, and her son after 32 years as a manual laborer suddenly claimed to be a son of a god, and got some publicity as a healer, would you be surprised if he picked up a following of 12 or 1200 or 12,000,000. Would some people, years after the authorities, and or his competitors had put him out of business, maybe even assassinated him, not talk of him and speak of him as a magical person. That’s the bible and Christian religion.

Now if some others claimed that indeed he was the Son of God, who they had personal contact with, do you suppose that these people would be able to pick up a following. And would they not be tempted to cash in on that?

That, more or less is what happens with religions, (which are called cults when they are small).

Less than 70 years ago the average Japanese person believed that their Emperor was a god. Nothing new here, just put something in the pot and move on.

thinksense

In one paragraph. Great exposition!

LPgee

ThinkSense, you are filling my cup overflowing.
I will read a lot more slowly your inputs on God's existence. I specially like your- " No one dies for a lie..."

thinksense

Fanally, the question of "sin".

What ever created us, created us as predatory animals, with all the attributes, and faults of predatory animals.

We k**l things to eat and survive. We take things up as we see and desire them. We are territorial and will fight rivals for a favored territory. We are driven to engage in sex, even if by force, to reproduce the race and continue the existence of our kind. We fight to stay alive as long as possible. We take revenge upon our enemies. We are cruel to our perceived enemies.

All these things, whether others consider them good or bad attributes were built into us by our “creator”.

So I would like you to consider that “sins” are not wrong in God’s eye.

They are only wrong in the eye of fellow humans who we might injure. And they are far wrong in the eye of those who would like to boss us around without fear that we would not stand for them doing that.

And so those who would rule, make the rest feel that certain things are wrong, so that they can rule without fear. If you notice, those who would rule do not follow their own announced precepts.

“Sin” is a human, not Godly, invention

Mr Bombastic

How do you explain Biblical Prophecy? There is not one single prophecy in the Bible that has been proven wrong. Oh, I know the standard arguments skeptics use. They go on about how they are so vague that they are bound to be fulfilled sooner or later. But there are several prophecies that contain names and dates. And they have been fulfilled to the letter. In fact, prophecy is being fulfilled in our lifetimes. Look at Israel. For nearly two thousand years the Jews have been scattered to the four corners of the Earth. About 70 years ago, they reclaimed their homeland. Something that has never happened to any other people at any time. This event was prophesied a long time ago. Related prophecies tell about the end times and how Israel will be the focus of these events. About how her enemies will come against her. Look at what's happening in the Middle East. Do you not see the stage being set for the events of Revelation? Do you think that the restoration of a nation, central to prophecy, is a coincidence?

You also said..."I just want to point out the con jobs that are being pulled on humans, using the God con." Have you ever studied Scripture? The cons you speak of are the result of the actions of individuals. Nowhere, in Scripture, does it tell people to behave in such a manner. The Bible tells us to love our neighbor as our self. Do unto others as you would them do unto you. If people would simply follow these two things, we would not recognize the world we live in. It would be a much better place. God is not a con man. He is the creator of everything. He is before all things.

Here are some simple t***hs. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. God loved us enough to send His Son as a sacrifice, to save us. He paid the price for our disobedience. And He is not charging us for it. It's free. No strings attached. All you have to do is accept it. You say that you believe in God. Well, God hears our prayers. I suggest that you get on your knees and ask God to reveal Himself to you. If you really mean it, He will keep His promise and do so. But you have to search for Him. Do you have a Bible? If so, start reading it. Pray to God for understanding, every time you sit down to read. If you don't have a Bible, you can download a free study bible online. There are also countless online resources. I recommend a chain reference Bible. The only way to know God is to read His word. Enough said.

thinksense

“How do you explain Biblical Prophecy?”

The same way I explain Nostradamus’ prophecy. It is all in the interpretation. All in the eye of the beholder, as it were. What he wants to make of it.


“There is not one single prophecy in the Bible that has been proven wrong.”

Ignorant as I am of your religionist guide’s mind set, I am going to have ask you to give me an example or two of fulfilled prophecy. Maybe one or two of those with names and dates. If they actually exist, it may prove me wrong on some points.

“For nearly two thousand years the Jews have been scattered to the four corners of the Earth. About 70 years ago, they reclaimed their homeland.”

I don’t think that is quite right. As I understand the original homeland promise was made by their God to a Semitic race, the Hebrews. The land of Israel was taken by guile and force by Ashken**is. These people converted to Judaism several hundred years ago for convenience and are not Semites. Rather their DNA would be more Hunnish/German. So I don’t see how biblical prophecy would apply here. BTW, you might notice that they are still "skattered to the four corners of the world".

“ Related prophecies tell about the end times and how Israel will be the focus of these events. About how her enemies will come against her.”

I have to admit that with the MSM as it is, I really don’t know what is happening in the Middle East. (and I doubt that you really know either.) Over the years, so much lying and double speak trickery is involved when ever “Israel" is discussed, that I must humbly admit that I have no knowledge of this subject, and so can not answer you regarding this.

“Do you not see the stage being set for the events of Revelation?”

I, like many others see the Book of Revelation to be the musings of an insane “prophet”.
For those who think they can make any sense of these writings, good luck. I can not.

“You also said..."I just want to point out the con jobs that are being pulled on humans, using the God con.” ......”The cons you speak of are the result of the actions of individuals.”

My point exactly. Religionists calling themselves “Jews” and “Christians” use the Bibles to pull con games on their adherents. The higher ups in these cons do not believe in Christianity, or either Bible. But they use the Bibles and their interpretations of the words and passages in the Bibles to control and ens***e their “people”. An example that might strike home might be the Tele-evangelists who you can hear spouting their nonsense, and asking the fools who listen to them to “be sure to send money to keep me on the air”. I’ll never forget Oral Robert’s Tent show in St. Lewis 1957, when he berated the several thousand people in his audience for not putting enough in the collection plate and told them he was going “to give them another chance, as he was having the plates passed again, and he did not want to hear the tinkle of change, only the rustle of big bills and checks.”

Cults, and their Big Brother Religions are rotten, evil people enslaving cons. All of them.


“All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

As I pointed out in my last discussion of “sin”. The things we have been taught to call “sin” are actually survival mechanisms that the Universal Intelligence, our Creator, built into us. These characteristics were essential for our early survival and advancement. To repeat the nonsense that they are viewed by that Creator as something bad is an insult to it. So stop insulting your God. Rather learn to control yourself in an over crowded world, where we must all learn to be polite and honest and fair with each other, while we keep up our guard to deflect the machinations of those who would ens***e us for their benefit. These latter have almost won the day, and I don’t think that our Creator wants that.

In other words, rip the blinders of the con men off your eyes, the ear speakers they use to hypnotize you out of your ears,look around, pay attention to what is really going on, and help wake up others.