L8erToots

I had the rare opportunity last night to have a long discussion with a very bright 21 year old friend of my children's who was a strong Sanders supporter who v**ed for Hillary. I think it's important to really see and hear the other side's point of view, especially of our future generation.
Here is just a sample of the long discussion, but was the part that was the eye opener for me:

"By it's very nature capitalism produces winners at the expense of the losers. The only thing stopping the winners from keeping the losers down permanently are government regulations. Well, the problem is that the winners tend to find their way into government decision making and we get things like the financial collapse in 2008.

With technology improving, automation is increasing. This means jobs will go away in certain markets, and that's going to be bad at first but good in the long run. Eventually we may look back in history and scoff at the idea that people had to go to work every day. So we might as well start talking about things like basic income or how to implement a system where everyone has their basic needs met without having to work.

Mark my words, his policies will only hurt the the working class. We don't have a jobs problem, unemployment is at a good rate. The problem is the past generation or two has been unable to find upward mobility or jobs that allow them to thrive, thus shrinking the middle class. Average income is either remaining the same or decreasing while costs and inflation are rising. Pissing off the countries we do business with and deporting millions of immigrants is only going to cause economic turmoil and the expenses will get passed on to the middle class."

Comments anyone?

Mr Bombastic

He doesn't seem to bright to me. He might of had a valid point about one or two things, but for the wrong reasons. And how would getting rid of i******s be bad for the economy? That would mean more jobs for Americans?

steve66613

The only hope, in this particular case, is that this moron isn't allowed to breed and thus influence his/her offspring!

This example is proof that our educational system is failing. Civics, social studies, government, fundamental economics......where did this fool get this crap?

Possibly, this person has conjured some warped views while under the influence of elicit substances. (Hopefully your children aren't participating!)

I hope you fabricated this story....otherwise, it's way too sad.

kenjay Loc: Arkansas

A product of a indoctrination instead of education. This person was reciting from rote what he was taught. Maybe very bright but has probably never had a independent thought in his life.

EL Loc: Massachusetts

No logic there!

Hemiman Loc: Communist California

A system where everyone has their basic needs met without having to work,his parents have to throw him out of their basement(which they no doubt worked very hard to acquire)and tell him or her to go find such a system.He has probably discovered welfare already.Where the hell do these kids get off thinking someone has to provide for them as they go about their life of leisure.

archie bunker Loc: Texas

He is idealistic isn't he? Did you suggest a vacation to Venezuela so he could be multi-cultural, and find himself?

I understand wanting to listen to them; but it is a trial of patience for me.

JW

"By it's very nature capitalism produces winners at the expense of the losers. The only thing stopping the winners from keeping the losers down permanently are government regulations. Well, the problem is that the winners tend to find their way into government decision making and we get things like the financial collapse in 2008."

Not correct... despotism produces winners at the expense of losers. Capitalism produces nothing, people produce and winners and losers result from that production.

Capitalism can evolve into despotism by creating financial dynasties and government has a legitimate role to play in preventing that from happening. However, government regulation should have as its goal enhancing the system, not stifling it. When government takes it upon itself to determine fairness, it creates winners at the expense of losers. In other words, government regulation can become despotism every bit as dangerous to the system as is a financial dynasty.

bylm1-Bernie

The first statement about capitalism should give you your first clue. Free market capitalism offers the greatest chance for a person to rise in their economic status than anything ever conceived. Does he think C*******m is going to allow people to fare better than they would under capitalism? How about Socialism? No working? Unemployment is at a good rate? Are you kidding? Has he bothered to analyze how the current administration figures unemployment? The fact that he embraces Sanders tells me he is not thinking straight. The fact that he v**ed for Hillary convinces me that he is not thinking straight. The liberal profs in our liberal universities today are not doing us a service.

L8erToots

Exactly.

JW

"With technology improving, automation is increasing. This means jobs will go away in certain markets, and that's going to be bad at first but good in the long run. Eventually we may look back in history and scoff at the idea that people had to go to work every day. So we might as well start talking about things like basic income or how to implement a system where everyone has their basic needs met without having to work."

There will always be a need for plumbers and innovators. That means someone will always need what someone else has and that exchange determines society as a whole. The argument that government can provide the medium of exchange falls apart at the point where it must acquire the necessary assets. Why should anyone choose to plumb or innovate when all needs are already at hand.

L8erToots

It was for me too and even for my son who is a friend of his. When I read this passage to my son, he said, "That's like Marxist Socialism!!!"
Actually I suggested that he read Mein Kampf so that he could see how dangerous that train of thought and social theory can be.

L8erToots

Oh, as soon as he said it I said, "So...you were a Sanders supporter who v**ed for Hillary" and yes, then it all made sense. I had just made the argument about how good capitalism can be, along the same lines as you stated.
I encouraged him to look at and analyze other non-left leaning sources to see both sides.
He is NOT thinking straight, but to me at least he is willing to debate - whether he decides to allow himself to see another side depends on how well the socialist left's propaganda is. BTW, he is not a college student - he is the obvious student of social media and mainstream media propaganda. I've known this kid since he was in HS and he is a kind, giving, caring human being who is being manipulated by those very qualities and it's sad.

archie bunker Loc: Texas

I know Toots. My son's best friend going back to his elementary school days is like that. My son is 29, and works his ass off working on Wind turbines. His liberal buddy works here, and there working at his parents GAS company. He gives my son crap for working so much, and so hard, and making too much money all the time.

Is it just me, or is there a contradiction there?
I'm glad those two boys are still best friends even with opposite views.

L8erToots

The dialog that prompted his response was this:
Him: I don't like capitalism, it's wrong and bad.
Me: Capitalism is GREAT as long as it doesn't exploit the hard working people. Capitalism was great in America until this happened: young engineers decided to get MBA's so they could get into management. They learned that the CEO's and shareholders could make enormous profits for themselves if they could only move their manufacturing to 3rd world countries where they could pay the workers .25 an hour instead of $15 an hour (this was in the late '80's) and they wouldn't have to pay medical benefits or ANY benefits (back then corporations paid 100% of employee's medical premium with no deductible). So the greedy CEO's (probably republicans) got our government to create NAFTA and Bill Clinton signed it and between 1994 and 2016 more than 685,000 American workers, who made enough wages to buy homes, cars and send their kids to college, lost their jobs...all so the corporations could make an item overseas for $15 and sell it here for $650.
THAT is evil Capitalism and the list of companies and corporations that do it is endless.
That is what Trump is gearing up to fight - greedy corporations who don't want to lose those profits and other foreign governments that keep their workers poor so they can profit too...he's not at war with gay's or women's rights...he doesn't care if a guy marries a guy, he just wants to make sure both those guys have good paying jobs with affordable healthcare."
His main "fight against Trump" is for minority rights.

You guys (and gals) in this forum are older than me and with age comes wisdom (amongst conservatives at least, lol)
Am I wrong in my debating points? I'm really trying to help this group of great kids to see the other side, to see that their world is not so bleak and dismal and hopeless as the Liberal Democrats want to paint for them. ANY tips or pointers will be greatly appreciated.