Can one be good without gods? For serious discussion. Jesters will be laughed at, and appreciated, however. And possibly ridiculed if it is judged it won't hurt their feelings too...

Singularity

For serious discussion.

Jesters will be laughed at, and appreciated, however.

And possibly ridiculed if it is judged it won't hurt their feelings too much. If someone's comments to you seem to identify you as being in the jokester group when you meant to be serious, please consider the context and your prior behavior, before assuming they are just being a dickhead.

Singularity

Singularity wrote:

For serious discussion.

Jesters will be laughed at, and appreciated, however.

And possibly ridiculed if it is judged it won't hurt their feelings too much. If someone's comments to you seem to identify you as being in the jokester group when you meant to be serious, please consider the context and your prior behavior, before assuming they are just being a dickhead.

Oh yeah, I would have liked to have edited off those last two provocative lines on the pasteup, but as it identifies the source, I was torn...

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I see that you are doing CPR on William Rowe's argument,

P1. If pointless evils exist, then God does not exist.
P2. Pointless evils do exist.
C. Therefore, God does not exist.

Naturally I could sit here and argue just because you can not see a sand flea it does not mean they do not exist.... or the other argument that when horrible things happen is when most humans are at their best. But, this would be fruitless and no matter how earnestly one tries to convenience an atheist of the existence of a gentle loving G*d, they have their reasons for not believing.

Then again, there are some who deep down inside knows that there is a creator G*d and is looking for a reason to believe again. When bad things, to include natural laws come and we are humbled by disaster or our bodies turn on us and start eating us with cancer.... we question and pray.... when this does not give the results we want then we become angry and turn to science or government programs instituted to help heal or repair the damage that nature reaps on us.... and for some this works. They get their homes replaced or the get the needed medication or surgery. And they praise science for the cure or drop to their knees to FEMA telling them how grateful they are for them saving their life. For others, help never arrives. So, people ask...."what is the point of a G*d that does not pick people up, rescue them when they are in trouble, when they hurt or starve..... if one truly exists then where is that G*d now."

I have been asked this question often, especially when I am working at the homeless shelters... "if G*d is so good, then why has He reduced me to poverty.... to begging for help to feed my family. " And when I go to hospitals to hold the hand of a dying person, the family will often ask "Where is G*d? He is taking my mother or father, and they believed in Him... but He is making them die a painful death." And frequently the one who is dying.... asks: "Why is G*d making me die alone?"

People rarely ask these questions out of curiosity or in application to the entire world.... they ask because it is personal and they are in pain. It is about them, no one else....but their needs at that moment. These people do not want to sit through an intellectual discussion on personal responsibility, free will, or G*d's plan, they want an immediate answer and relief from their own suffering. I do not have all or even most of the answers for these people. But, I do have one.

G*d did create a perfect world without pain, without suffering, without death. A word without hunger, without bigotry, without war. And in this utopia, he created man and woman.... and he created love. Not the superficial and transit love, but everlasting and healing love. Love is voluntary... one can not force someone to love them, they can not demand it... it is only given with free will. With this we make choices, and we have corrupted and abused this power given to us by our creator, G*d. Sadly, when people are suffering in their own personal world, they can not understand this simple truth... it is easier to shake their fist at the heavens and blame G*d for their own actions, their own choices... for those of their parents, it is easier....

And you are now rolling your eyes and saying..."I heard this all before, so why do you think that G*d is so indifferent to suffering." Well, this is only my personal belief and not that of Judaism or religious background. But, I do not think that G*d "causes" everything to happen. I do not look for the hidden divine meaning of everything that happens to me. Many of the folks that take time to read my comments are now in shock, and I hope that they landed on something soft when they fainted... I believe that G*d does not cause our misfortunes. Some are caused by bad luck, some are caused by bad people, and some are simply an inevitable consequence of our being human and being mortal, living in a world of inflexible natural laws. The question we should be asking is not, “Why did this happen to me? What did I do to deserve this?” That is really an unanswerable, pointless question. A better question would be “Now that this has happened to me, what am I going to do about it?” A pointless life is looking for a villain to blame for hard times, someone or something to blame set us, or rather keeping this personal, me to being "against" nature or the fall guy and even G*d... to me, it is more important to look for solutions. Life is to be lived for something not against something.

Therefore, in response to your question... can one be good without gods.... yes, but one can not be good without the One G*d, the creator of us all.

Singularity wrote:

Discussion: How can one be good without gods?

Note, this is a duplicate post to be discarded hopefully by admin to reduce confusion. Please look for "can one be good without gods?" to comment on this posting if you wish.

mcmlx

Pennylynn wrote:

I see that you are doing CPR on William Rowe's argument,

P1. If pointless evils exist, then God does not exist.
P2. Pointless evils do exist.
C. Therefore, God does not exist.

Naturally I could sit here and argue just because you can not see a sand flea it does not mean they do not exist.... or the other argument that when horrible things happen is when most humans are at their best. But, this would be fruitless and no matter how earnestly one tries to convenience an atheist of the existence of a gentle loving G*d, they have their reasons for not believing.

Then again, there are some who deep down inside knows that there is a creator G*d and is looking for a reason to believe again. When bad things, to include natural laws come and we are humbled by disaster or our bodies turn on us and start eating us with cancer.... we question and pray.... when this does not give the results we want then we become angry and turn to science or government programs instituted to help heal or repair the damage that nature reaps on us.... and for some this works. They get their homes replaced or the get the needed medication or surgery. And they praise science for the cure or drop to their knees to FEMA telling them how grateful they are for them saving their life. For others, help never arrives. So, people ask...."what is the point of a G*d that does not pick people up, rescue them when they are in trouble, when they hurt or starve..... if one truly exists then where is that G*d now."

I have been asked this question often, especially when I am working at the homeless shelters... "if G*d is so good, then why has He reduced me to poverty.... to begging for help to feed my family. " And when I go to hospitals to hold the hand of a dying person, the family will often ask "Where is G*d? He is taking my mother or father, and they believed in Him... but He is making them die a painful death." And frequently the one who is dying.... asks: "Why is G*d making me die alone?"

People rarely ask these questions out of curiosity or in application to the entire world.... they ask because it is personal and they are in pain. It is about them, no one else....but their needs at that moment. These people do not want to sit through an intellectual discussion on personal responsibility, free will, or G*d's plan, they want an immediate answer and relief from their own suffering. I do not have all or even most of the answers for these people. But, I do have one.

G*d did create a perfect world without pain, without suffering, without death. A word without hunger, without bigotry, without war. And in this utopia, he created man and woman.... and he created love. Not the superficial and transit love, but everlasting and healing love. Love is voluntary... one can not force someone to love them, they can not demand it... it is only given with free will. With this we make choices, and we have corrupted and abused this power given to us by our creator, G*d. Sadly, when people are suffering in their own personal world, they can not understand this simple truth... it is easier to shake their fist at the heavens and blame G*d for their own actions, their own choices... for those of their parents, it is easier....

And you are now rolling your eyes and saying..."I heard this all before, so why do you think that G*d is so indifferent to suffering." Well, this is only my personal belief and not that of Judaism or religious background. But, I do not think that G*d "causes" everything to happen. I do not look for the hidden divine meaning of everything that happens to me. Many of the folks that take time to read my comments are now in shock, and I hope that they landed on something soft when they fainted... I believe that G*d does not cause our misfortunes. Some are caused by bad luck, some are caused by bad people, and some are simply an inevitable consequence of our being human and being mortal, living in a world of inflexible natural laws. The question we should be asking is not, “Why did this happen to me? What did I do to deserve this?” That is really an unanswerable, pointless question. A better question would be “Now that this has happened to me, what am I going to do about it?” A pointless life is looking for a villain to blame for hard times, someone or something to blame set us, or rather keeping this personal, me to being "against" nature or the fall guy and even G*d... to me, it is more important to look for solutions. Life is to be lived for something not against something.

Therefore, in response to your question... can one be good without gods.... yes, but one can not be good without the One G*d, the creator of us all.

I see that you are doing CPR on William Rowe's arg... (show quote)

Pennylynn, I always enjoy your posts and have a question.
Why do you not mention the prince of this earth, satan, the beautiful Lucifer who causes every single bit of suffering?

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Before anything, thank you for the lovely complement... I so appreciate you taking time to read my comments.

I am Jewish and satan does not play a big part in our faith and we do not elevate him to any level where he could control either our actions or thoughts. The word satan, not a proper noun, simply means: "challenger", "difficulty", or "distraction" and you can find this in 1 Kings, Psalms, Zechariah, Isiah, and of course Job. It is not until you get into the New Testament that he is mentioned as powerful, god-like. Sure, there was Job and the misery that satan, with permission from G*d put him through... but, in the end G*d restored Job and all his possession because he still trusted and believed, his love for our Father was more important than what was happening to him, he kept his faith. It is a lesson for all of us... regardless of the stumbling blocks, regardless of our pain... we keep faith and G*d will keep his promises to us.

One day, I will make a post about satan.... and I hope that you will share your views.

mcmlx wrote:

Pennylynn, I always enjoy your posts and have a question.
Why do you not mention the prince of this earth, satan, the beautiful Lucifer who causes every single bit of suffering?

mcmlx

Pennylynn wrote:

Before anything, thank you for the lovely compleme... (show quote)

I will look forward to the post. I'm encouraged because
I'm starting to get some clarity about how satan has exalted himself in the gentile "pulpit".
Thank you, Pennylynn.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you very much. I do encourage you to talk with your religious leaders and read the Bible when you have time. G*d will reward your thirst for knowledge...

mcmlx wrote:

I will look forward to the post. I'm encouraged because
I'm starting to get some clarity about how satan has exalted himself in the gentile "pulpit".
Thank you, Pennylynn.

susanblange Loc: USA

Pennylynn wrote:

Before anything, thank you for the lovely compleme... (show quote)

Satan is in the OT, but I think a better translation is "adversary". He is Adam the serpent and his creation was a side effect of the creation of man. Adam was created as the antithesis of God. Adam and God are exactly the same, yet totally opposite. In the book of Job he is called "son of God" and Adam is the only literal son of God. He went to Heaven to preserve his life and to be reincarnated as the father of God. He is the only one who could genetically bring Messiah/God into the world.

America Only Loc: From the right hand of God

susanblange wrote:

Satan is in the OT, but I think a better translati... (show quote)

NON SENSE! You need to re-think what you just stated. Your Son could not be reincarnated to become your great grandfather....and as such there is no way Adam was reincarnated to be the Father of God. You have had someone give you some WAY out there misleading input on this.

As to the author of this entire topic...you are beyond horrible. No words in the history of mankind can ever capture how vile and a horrible monster you actually are. You are a living tragedy!

America Only Loc: From the right hand of God

Singularity wrote:

For serious discussion.

Jesters will be laughed at, and appreciated, however.

And possibly ridiculed if it is judged it won't hurt their feelings too much. If someone's comments to you seem to identify you as being in the jokester group when you meant to be serious, please consider the context and your prior behavior, before assuming they are just being a dickhead.

Jesters? How swarmy of you! Your posts are all the same. Anti American...Anti Morals...Anti Family..Anti God...you are proof God does desire for mankind to be caring to others in general...and part of that caring is to try to make people informed of the evil rotten individuals and groups, even elected officials that are like you, to showcase what NOT to be in life...and as a warning to Parents to keep their children safe and away from you!

fredlott63

If your religion makes you feel good while you are a pain in the neck to whoever is unlucky enough to be in the same room with you, your religion is useless.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

To whom are you addressing this comment....? Or should we just guess?

fredlott63 wrote:

If your religion makes you feel good while you are a pain in the neck to whoever is unlucky enough to be in the same room with you, your religion is useless.

Singularity

Pennylynn wrote:

To whom are you addressing this comment....? Or should we just guess?

I guessed!

PeterS

Singularity wrote:

For serious discussion.

Jesters will be laughed at, and appreciated, however.

And possibly ridiculed if it is judged it won't hurt their feelings too much. If someone's comments to you seem to identify you as being in the jokester group when you meant to be serious, please consider the context and your prior behavior, before assuming they are just being a dickhead.

Are the laws that lead to a just society any different than the laws for a moral society? And of course if you work from the premise that man wrote the bible then morals written are those composed by man...

Singularity

PeterS wrote:

Are the laws that lead to a just society any different than the laws for a moral society? And of course if you work from the premise that man wrote the bible then morals written are those composed by man...

Just as our personal "goodness" is intuited, defined, guarded and enforced by such a tenuous constraint as "self inventory and self discipline" so our collective social, legal and moral "goodness" is a tenuous consensus, fluidly changing... A synergy that, as a practical consequence of its collective composition, is necessarily incomprehensible as a whole to us as individual cogs in the great machine.