Singularity

Someone is putting the horse before the cart!

Technology. Facts make stuff work better, more predictably than beliefs or fantasies. The closer to true the facts are, the better the ability to predict consequences and uses to produce technological accuracy.

True has a special meaning in mathematics, measurement and scientific theory than it does in philosophy. Philosophical t***h is inductive and somewhat metaphorical. The boundary is metaphor. Metaphor has high communicative value, in fact language is only possible because of the human capacity for metaphorical thinking.("Well, it is like this....") But that value is attained by fudging the "t***h"."

A rose by any name smells the same, but so does extracted rose oil. Try to substitute 12 bottles of rose oil for a trip to the florist on Valentine's day and you will catch my drift!

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

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Let me try to weigh in.

First: The trip to the Dr. produced action not results which is a step in the right direction. We have been trying to get Sue,, (my wife) an MRI for almost two years. The insurance has refused to allow it. Finally the Dr. is going to try a plan of attack that could result in their agreeing to allow the MRI. Plus, she put her on some Celebrex plus giving her some Lyrica as a back up if the Celebrex doesn't work. She has held off from both of these meds because of the possible side effects.

Now back to the subject matter:

T***h can be a t***h or the t***h. T***h can be made up of one thing or a combination of things that wind up producing a conclusion which does not violate the law of noncontradiction.

Faith is not just religious:

Example, Sue is trusting her Dr. to oversee her pain. She has faith that the Dr. has her best interest in mind.

More so, we all have, with possibly the exception of Singularity, because she knows and understands medical terms, have been given medicine that we have no idea what those 16 caliber technical names mean or what they contain. Even if we look it up or the Dr. tells us we as lay-people do not understand. Then we go further, when our Dr. refers us to a "specialist" that we have never met let alone seen. He checks us over and tells us he is going to split us wide open and take our heart out to fix it and we say ok. That is "faith, hope."

Faith is not blind but rather hopeful. There is a sure faith, example: I hope or have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.
There is a wild and crazy kind of faith, example: I hope I win the lottery tomorrow.

It is said in the Bible that Jesus spoke somethings that were very difficult for some who believed on Him. It goes on to say from that time many left and followed Him no more. He asked his apostles, are you going to leave me too? Peter said where can we go? You have the words of life.

You see, wh**ever the driving force of life, there is a great inward desire to live, even exist as long as possible for the majority of humanity. The knowledge of a monolithic God came either by direct revelation from Him or someone who was one master salesman. Even Atheists have to admit the belief in God has motivated more people to action of some sort more than any other single entity

There is no question that many atrocities have been carried out by many who cover themselves with the cloak of religion. Even the catholic church as well as the Catholic church. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. As we are seeing more clearly everyday, there are bad apples in every group no matter what the organization or organism.

On the balance of things, those who truly believe the principles and precepts found in the Bible are those who have made great strides for the causes of peace and livability in societies and cultures where they are espoused freely.

In my non-educated mind, the Atheists concept of life is that one does not need any organized guideline for living or dying for that matter. That there is no sense or pattern to life, it just is, and it came about by chance, accident, or non established reason.

That is a hard sell for people who seek purpose and hope. The most unspoken questions of man are: Who am I? Where did I come from? (not my mothers womb), What is my purpose? And, what is my destiny?

Christianity gives at least a hope of answers to these and many other questions.

One thing is certain, no matter how you slice the cake: We were either lucky or blessed to be born in A country where we can make choices without being forced. You all are free to believe as you choose, Christians have been free to believe as they choose. It appears, at least in the eyes of many Christians that these freedoms are in danger. I suppose it is a matter of perspective.

There are radicals on both sides. Someone has said, that is there a God? or no there isn't a God are unprovable values. It is a decision that is based on many many things. Education is not the deciding factor because there are many very highly educated, highly respected individuals on both sides of the fence.

I happen to believe that there is no division between God and Science, But I believe there is a great division between many, not all scientist and God.

Forgive my rambling, But I am one who trust God with all that I am and have. No one can be forced or d**gged into believing anything. It's like the little boy whose mother made him set down for a time out. He said I may be setting down for real, but in my mind, I am standing up. No one can tell me where or if I can pray, because I can communicate in my mind no matter what.

Just Sayin....

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

You zoomed over my head but I have read about oxytocin. We use it to induce labor. Or is this something different?

Singularity

Hello, old Friend.

It has been a long time since we crossed in these threads. I am glad to hear some progress has been made in Sue's quest for health and health care. And I hope she is feeling more comfortable.

Now to your post, thank you for a thoughtful reply.

I understand your point about faith in daily experiences. We all do operate on the basis of our level of confidence in our ability to predict the outcome of our possible choices. The leap of faith measures exactly the gap in sure knowlege! In most everyday uses, faith and confidence are used interchangeably. There are however some ways they are different. Confidence seems to have more of a numerical aspect. We speak of 0% confidence. Does that mean the same as no faith? How much faith corresponds to 100% confident? Could it be confidence is the knowledge portion of the journey from inaction towards action as faith is that which fills the remainder of the gap in motivation? That would mean they aren't the same thing but it seems like they must be surely the same kind of things some way.

I will need some time to ponder this further and I would be interested in what you think.

Be well and accept all random lovingkindnesses. Against such there is no law!

Singularity

And:

The Illusion of God's Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing. Copyright © 2016 by John C. Wathey.

lpnmajor Loc: Arkansas

We have theories galore, but theories are only opinions. Facts tend to change as new information is gleaned, showing that facts are relative. Humans need to feel like they understand the world they live in, so they create "facts" that seem to correlate to what they observe and go on their happy way. When new information is developed, some revise their "facts", while some insist on clinging to the old facts, as that makes them feel more comfortable. Is Pluto a planet, a dwarf planet or simply a large asteroid? Who cares? Our lives are not affected one way or the other, but many people had a visceral reaction to Pluto being removed from the Planet list - because facts are relative to how one feels about them.

I was recently reading about how scientists have developed a way to make adult skin stem cells behave as embryonic stem cells, by using various growth factors and conditions. That's great, but here's the thing; they have absolutely no clue how or why this occurs - they just know it does. How did they develop this? By trial and error. That is no more sophisticated than what the typical auto mechanic employs, "let's try this and see if that fixes the problem". True science requires a hypothesis to explain what is observed, then exhaustive research and testing to prove or disprove the hypothesis. During this process, the hypothesis is considered an opinion, nothing more. Today, we accept these hypotheses as fact, until they are disproven. We have yet to find definitive proof that humans came from apes, yet this has been taught as fact for 50 years.

People believe what they want to believe and justify it by discarding or creating wh**ever "facts" they need to do so - scientists included.

Singularity

It is difficult to evaluate your treatise here, as you are confusing and conflating terms and dancing around on shifting definitions to cast a shadow of confusion. The fallacies seem unconscious, almost.

Your argument is confused/pretending that "facts" are the same as thoughts or opinions. While all are internal cerebral representations of information, the difference is in how carefully the t***h value is determined.
Thought - random
Opinion - thoughtful comparison/contrast of several thoughts and their interelatedness.
Facts- thoughts or opinions examined and consciously vetted for t***h claims and reliability as well as consistancy with other accepted t***h.

No human is omniscient. We come to what we think we know by an inner sense evaluating our confidence in the predictability of certain conditions leading to a certain set of consequences.

Example, would you agree you won't find a chipmonk growing on the bushes in the park, that they always come from other chip monks' bodies? How can you know that?

nwtk2007 Loc: Texas

Dang it you're right. Now, I guess my beer bottles I planted won't grow up to be big beer trees???? Damn it!

Singularity

You imply this is all that is involved. That accepting any claim is a valueless enterprise when in fact, some facts and theories are more robust in their t***h value.

Bottom line, yours is an argument that can be observed to predictably (designed to?) confuse rather than elucidate the t***h that all t***h claims are not equal.

We value the statement 2+2=4 differently from 2+2=3. Why?

We use a ruler to be confident our measurements are "true." We use a square to make true 90 degree angles in constructed items when squareness is needed so that parts match and work together make a coherent whole.

Copernicus and Galileo measured and observed repeating movements of celestial bodies and elucidated the mathematical symmetry and consistancy of observations, to become confident enough that they had uncovered a true set of facts (theory) that works predictably.

Thomas Edison tried hundreds of materials as filiaments in his light bulbs. An assistant, discouraged, remarked on the observation that Edison had "failed" hundreds of times. Edison replied, no, he'd had verified hundreds of substances which he now knew would NOT WORK.

We aren't omniscient, we accept that we don't know everything about everything, so we know our constructions, material and cerebral, are prone to known and unnoticed error. The scientific method is a technique to tease out that kind of error. Faith, especially blind faith is antithetical to that process.

I'm not saying faith is useless, I am pointing out that blind faith is equally unable to see into the future. It must be content to imagine and hope on par with the rest of us.

Singularity

Anything is possible through faith?

J Anthony Loc: Connecticut

Faith is a wish of the heart.
Where we are born is pure happenstance. Your beliefs are more often than not a product of your environment, or cultural-conditioning. If you were born in the Far East and raised by Tibetan monks, you would likely have a very different outlook on life than you do having been born and raised in America. Some of us mature and are inclined to seek new perspectives; some of us double-down on the ones we already have as time goes by. It's all relative.
There's the ultimate illusion: time. Time doesn't "go by", but we sure do!
Wh**ever the ultimate t***h is on how this universe came to be, or the origin of life, we have not the ability to access that knowledge, conciously or on-demand, and that's assuming it is buried somewhere in that stuff between our ears.
Just throwing in my two-bits on this heady Saturday morning...

Singularity

Thank you for another thoughtful, courteous reply. Enjoy the rest of your Saturday!

MarvinSussman

You are confusing both atheism and theism with morality. Neither has anything to do with morality. Both are merely concerned with the existence of a supernatural universe. Some accept the existence; some don't. That's what it's all about and that's all that it's about.

Singularity

Excellent point.

padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al

The final end of your story is decay, worms, forgetting, forgotten. Without God's grace which comes only through faith, hope and charity (love), no one can be very good. Without love, justice turns to cruelty. Without hope, courage turns to blind despair and rage. Without faith, this worldly so called wisdom becomes foolishness in God's eyes.