Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Each discussion on religion, someone without fail comes along and makes the remark, "Love" is the requirement to be a "good" Christian.

So, now I have to ask the question..... define love. I ask you kindly, do not just give me a scripture like, 1 Corinthians 13:5.....

Many thanks

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I define "Love" as "Wanting what is best for the object of that love," Even if I have to be non-participant because of love. That may result in sacrificing my wants in order to ensure what is best for another.

Example: Suppose I love my Son, and want him to follow my career in the military. My son loves History, wants to be History Teacher. If I truly love my son, I will keep my Military "wants for him" to myself.

Example: Suppose I love my Daughter, and want her to be a Nurse, like my Mother. My daughter wants to be first-grade teacher because she loves teaching young children. If I truly love my daughter, I will keep my "wants for her" to myself.

Example: Suppose I love my brother, but when we get together, we bring out the worst in each other, leading to legal difficulties. (Public drunkenness; assault; speeding in traffic; any of a number of possibilities where siblings try to outdo each other.) If I truly love my brother, I will stay away from him so I will no longer be a bad influence over him.

This can serve as well over neighbors, family members, acquaintances, or any of a number of relationships, because it requires my continual assessment of the relationship as well as any consequences, whether good or bad, and an awareness of my own limitations as well as my true assessment of what constitutes proper values.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Thank you so very much! An excellent response and I wholeheartedly agree with you. How does this fit into your religious beliefs about the love of G*d? Or G*d's love for us?

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Obviously God wants what is best for us. And just as obviously, when someone has been taught wrong things about God, He will just back off and leave you alone and give you enough time to come to terms with the truth.

He never wants to "bring out the worst" just because you don't believe Him. He want you to come to a knowledge of who and what He is because you want to. Not because He forced it upon you. (Not "you" specifically, but all those "you's" out there that would fit this profile.)

God IS love. No other explanation fits that satisfies the question, "Why would God, being perfect in perfect heaven, create imperfection, and place it in an imperfect world, unless He has a master plan that overcomes all negatives in the scenario, and benefits Him in some way, and benefiting us in every way?"

He, being LOVE, and having no one upon whom to spend Himself requitingly, offers His creation freewill, curiosity, investigatory powers, assessment capability, and the power to wonder at the wonderful.

What more do we need? Time for it all to mesh and work, and produce. Then we become reciprocity personified, in its absolute best meaning, "Love returned."

fiatlux

"God is love." His character defines love. Yes, too vague perhaps. And 1Cor13:5-...misunderstands it on some level.

Love cannot sacrifice; there is never anything to lose. Love seeks no gain or reward, for love is enough. Love has no patience, for the moment is perfect. Love is not kind, for love acts without thinking of kindness. There are three types of love: unconditional, unconditional, and unconditional: the rest is just forms of expressing such love. Love is not an emotion; it is a complete union of being. Love is not moral, per se, concerned with what is right and wrong: it is only concerned with healing and restoration; what leads to wholeness. There is much more but I sense you already object.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

On the contrary, I do not object to anything you say or think. I may not agree, but certainly your emotions are your very own and not on trial.

I do have a question. Based on your defined "love" are mortal people capable of loving? And if the answer is no, because we are self absorbed, under appreciative, and for the most part emotionally immature, would G*d demand from us an act that we are incapable of performing?

fiatlux

Great question! It seemed to me for the longest time that God seemed to demand of us more than he could or was willing to give. Reading through the OT any reasonable person is at the very least hesitant to love freely and calls into question such love. But answering that is for another time.

You asked "...are mortal people capable of loving?" Yes and no. Love of guns, chocolate, football, or whatever appears like love. There is passion and dedication. Yet it fails love criteria because it is possession. Love has no possessions and no image. Are we capable of that? On our own, no. I believe in grace because I have experienced such grace. Not with you or always but enough to believe it is real.

You said: "...would G*d demand from us an act that we are incapable of performing?"
God does not demand, a Commandment is not an order or duty to be carried out. The love given to us has us naturally willing to give, as if giving to ourselves. Our stomach growls for the hungry. We shiver for the naked. "Love your neighbor as yourself" means your neighbor is yourself. Yet, to me, only the grace of God makes this real.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I take issue first with the idea you express that "1Cor 13:5 misunderstands Love." Are you saying God cannot correctly express His own being?



Mothers, wives, siblings, Fathers, Husbands, Brothers, sisters, Offspring of every category do it all the time. To "Sacrifice" is to make another the focus of your effort for what is best for that other. And most are selfless.



Sure there is. Lose our self in doing for another that has a need beyond our own gratification. but it is not a "loss" - it is a finding; a finding of kinship where none existed; a finding of kindred need, where there is null fulfillment.



Other than to gain the lost brother, to salvage a lost sister, to comfort an aged parent, to shelter a lost cat or dog, To Love is to gain at all junctures.

To truly another is to have a contest to see if I can do better for other, than other can do for me. THAT is a bounty of love.



Rewardless love is like a windsock that ne'er flies, a kite upon the ground; love is meant to be the medium upon which one soars above the landscape, with head and heart near to Heaven for the bliss rejoined.



The only thing that is enough, but of which "enough" is never the 'plaint.



Impatience is a form of hate. It demeans and bullies the slow, the immature, the faint and the halt. Love makes room for all stumbling, bumbling walks in life that are less than "me," for "me" is lost in loving, in helping, in finding, in losing, in feeding, in clothing, in accompanying, in leaving, sheltering, in listening, in all facets of every kind of living life in concert with others who have less than I.

And it moves me to aid and abet those who have more than I, to help, to find, to lose, to shelter, to listen, to feed, to clothe, to accompany, to live for others in every facet of living in concert with others who have less in every way.



AMEN!



What an empty, blind, deaf, and selfish thing an unthinking love can be. For it must always be seeing, listening, comforting, joining, sharing, laughing with, joying, building up, never tearing down, always considering, kindling reciprocity in empty hears, to being them into a circle of being loved.



There is the love a Mother has for a child of her body; the love a Father has for the mother of his children; the love a sibling has for a sibling; the love a neighbor has for kindness from a stranger; the love a puppy has for the toddler who pulls upon its ears; The love a Grandmother has for the parents of her grandchildren; oh, the plentitude of kinds of love. never making conditions, only making inroads upon aching hearts, bringing bliss to empty lives.



Love is the only emotion worthy of emoting. All else is a striving to learn to love; a journey to find love; a sharing to cause love.



AMEN!



Love is always concerned with doing no wrong, only pursuing what is right and proper in the effort of doing for another what is best for that other.



If that were true, only Doctors and Nurses could love. Love is only concerned with loving, which every soul under heaven can share with every other soul, if only the effort were put forth with understanding and consideration of the needs of others. For love is based upon need and fulfillment, always with lifting up and not tearing down, building relationships, not destroying characters.



What makes you think that?

fiatlux

1Cor13:5- went as far as it could for the people at that time. I do not recall Paul saying this is all there is to love.

Love cannot sacrifice for it experiences no loss at what it gives. No vacations for twenty years for a child's college education is a vacation.

If one is selfless, there is nothing to lose.

To say that love does not seek reward or gain is not to say there is no reward or gain, it is simply not a motivation to love.

fiatlux

Your objections, lol.

Your response to what I said is perfect; that's it.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

I wrote no "objections, and two "AMEN"s. I did not object nor disagree with your post. I simply responded with a different perspective.

I did not mean to imply you are wrong, nor that I am right.. Only offered a different perspective, or "other side of the coin" to the same thing.

I think there may even be other perspectives if anyone cares to join the conversation. Doesn't mean they think any of the above are wrong.

"Expanding!" - not "Rejecting!"

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

Love is a word used for way too many things. Some languages have different words for love to cover people, animals and physical things. for instance, I LOVE mint chocolate ice cream, always my Favorite. However, I do not want to marry a carton of it nor will I want to give it a funeral when I have eaten all of it. Just had an idea "but officer, I loved that ice cream so much I needed to take it home and rescue it from the abusive people in the grocery store. I wasn't trying to steal it, Really I wasn't" Wouldn't work because the love for ice cream is not of that nature. Nor is "I love a walk in the spring rain" expressing the same thing.
Even within the ordinary concept of love there are difference. I love my dogs but I would sacrifice their lives to save a human in the same burning building, except if it were a case of the person started the fire, then the dogs come first. I have a friend who has a pet snake, two guinea pigs, one cat, and two dogs. I listed them in the order of priorities, according to her, as to which she loves more in an emergency. Her husband is not on the list, the way they fight, I think she would save the snake first, rather than her husband (but that's another story)

There is the love you should have for your children. I say should, as many of the kids we work with have never seen any resemblance of that kind of love. That love requires teaching and guidance toward making a good and honest adult out of a child with training, corrections, and guidance. You watch over them, provide them with the food, clothing and housing they need (not want, need) and grow them up strong enough to stand on their own two feet, walk proudly into the world as an adult. that love means guidance, protection but also correction, and teaching a strong moral structure that will support them through the hard times ahead. It means that they understand no one owes them anything, they must earn trust, respect and love from others.

There is also the love that parents have for their children and children have for their parent. and that type of love damned well better not include sex I means self sacrifice, respect and honoring the wishes and needs of the other. Self sacrifice even to the point of risking death to save your child. Many parents today don't even have enough love for their children to take time daily to read to them, play games with them, and talk to them person to person. so they give the kids toys and computers and emotionally abandon them. That is not love.

Then there is love for friends. Many people have friends they love as much as they love their spouses, just in a different way. Their friends are welcome to stay with their families if necessary, meals are shared, time together is not on an I OWE basis but in an I want to spend time with you basis. this type of love does NOT include sex.

The best human to human love is between husband and wife. this is a special gift from god to mankind. No other species is capable of this kind of love. This bond is designed by our Maker to be forever, but humans seem to want a one year contract, rather than a lifetime commitment with all its ups and downs, sacrifices for the other and mutual caring that is required.

Most important is the love that is the gift from God. His love makes all other types of love possible, and necessary. His love reflects in all the good and loving things we do for others. It heals and comforts us, gives us strength to handle the problems that we encounter, and makes us able to love others even when they are being unloveable.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Nice reply. Thank you!

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

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no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

You are quite welcome. My problem with many people is that they believe God said be nice to everyone praise their sins so you don't hurt their feelings. That is not love, in any definition of the word.