fredlott63

Original sin
There is this belief that we are all sinners whether we have sinned or not. That sin is not a poor choice of activity but something we all do. That the mistakes we make as young adults will stick with us our entire lives. We should learn from our mistakes. The bible says, “let him that stole steal no more”. Somehow satan has the earth deceived into believing that God looks all of us as sinners because of the actions of a man who died thousands of years before we were born. Sin is a choice. Sin has consequences. God came down to this planet and wrote with His finger in stone, “Do not commit adultery”. Adultery destroys families and marriages. The immediate thrill is not worth the pain that adultery causes. No one will profit from doing anything God said not to do. Let me get back to original sin. Looking at a sin as anything but a poor choice of action doesn’t make sense. Saying that nature makes us all sinners is a mockery of nature. To punish a person for an act committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. For anyone to find someone guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To mock nature, justice, and reason with one concept is a feat of evil that tops all others but original sin is a pillar of Christianity.

susanblange Loc: USA

Original sin is a Christian myth. What A&E did in the Garden of Eden was an act of oral sodomy. Children are born innocent and with a clean slate. If there is such a thing as original sin, only males inherit it and it is one of the reasons for circumcision. We all choose who to follow and obey, God/Eve or Satan/Adam.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

There are several lines of biblical evidence for the historic Christian doctrine that we are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy. There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.” Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Jonathan Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: “The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”

Humanity is often described in general terms as unrighteous. Unrighteousness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole. This implies that it is the property of our species. In other words, sinfulness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1–3:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ (“you were dead in your trespasses . . . in which you formerly walked”). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners. Paul goes on to make it absolutely clear that all Christians came from this state (“. . . we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh”) and that all non-Christians are still in this state (“. . . and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”) Thus, Scripture regards all people before they are saved by Christ as sinners and thus deserving of punishment from God. Which is to say that from the inception of our existence, we are sinful.

In Psalm 14:2–3 we read: “The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: “they have all turned aside . . . there is no one who does good.”

Job 15:14 similarly declares that sinfulness is a property of humanity: “What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?” Verses 15–16 then speak of the human race as a whole in shocking terms expressing our general corruption: “Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!”

Jeremiah 17:9 says that “the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” This seems to assume original sin — wickedness is a property of the human heart. Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: “. . . the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives.” Again, the human heart is sinful, and therefore all humans are sinful.

These texts indicate, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born corrupt — which means we are born with original sin. One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions. All of those people are sinful, but this doesn’t mean that infants are.

This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed. First, the texts do not seem to restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall. Second, as Jonathan Edwards pointed out, “. . . this would not alter the case. . . . For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature.”

In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.

Third, Edwards also says, “why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free from any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation?” (Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin, 188).

Infants die, therefore they are not innocent. Death — both physical and spiritual — can be thought of as a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. It could be objected that Christ was sinless, and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins; as per the prophesy.

If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect there to be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned? If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into socities that influence all people to sin?

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

------------------
"... oral sodomy." Interesting phraseology. Are you speaking literally or figuratively?

susanblange Loc: USA

Literally, ala. Adam was the serpent, it was part of his anatomy. And A&E were naked so it was out there. Adam was told by God not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge before Eve was created. This meant carnal knowledge. A eunuch is called a "dry tree". Isaiah 56:3. There wasn't a magical fruit or a talking snake. Adam always wanted to be God, not just the son of God, and he talked Eve into eating from the Tree. When Adam died and went to Heaven, his name was changed to Satan.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

---------

You're saying that man fell from grace due to a BJ? Shades of Clinton...

BTW- I don't buy into your theology, one iota. Your conclusions have no basis in the Torah or in the Holy Bible. Your timeline of events is bass-ackwards and you appear to use texts not recognized as divinely inspired. It's just another variation of Wicca. I believe you make this stuff up as you go along.

susanblange Loc: USA

All of my doctrine comes from the OT and most of it is original. Adam was the Tree of (carnal) Knowledge and Eve was the Tree of Life. There was not a magical fruit or a talking snake, but there is a commandment against sodomy. A&E were commanded to "be fruitful and multiply". You cannot get pregnant by committing sodomy. My theology has been over 32 years in development. I am not a Wiccan. I think most of what you just said is projection.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

------------------

Oh, WOW!. A whole 32 years in development! That's quite a lot of time to have wasted. I'll see your 32 years of wasted development and raise you 2 millennia of accepted doctrine.

Your metaphorical trees being men and your disbelief in talking serpents (I suppose you deny the talking donkey of the NT, too.) just proves how much you deny the power of God over the weak ability of mankind to comprehend even a minute portion of God's abilities. All you're doing is trying to put yourself on an equal footing with Him.

A&E WERE fruitful, and DID multiply. How did their sons and daughters arrive? Osmosis?

I think YOU'RE the one projecting YOUR hang up about oral sex. Is that one of your sacraments? In the Bible, people who practice that sort of activity were called, "temple prostitutes."

While I, personally, can understand the theory of the Spirit of God as being asexual, it's inarguable that the OT and the NT are replete with references to God being male; "God the Father'" Son of God," He," "Him," His." The "SON of GOD" came to Earth as a male; not a female. Opps. I forgot. You don't take any of your "religion" from the NT. You just pick and choose from the OT and some other non-canonized writings. Then, you blaspheme your OT selections by altering their meanings to suit your desired conclusions.

Yours isn't a religion based in anything related to the Judaeo-Christian foundation. Yours is just some made-up pile of mumbo-jumbo, designed to give yourself a feeling of superiority (or to put yourself on an equal-footing) over/with God. You're a female Jim Jones, looking to build some sort of cult-religion by convincing those people who have lost their faith, for whatever reason, that you have some sort of 'new and improved' religion. And, that you and you alone, hold the key to eternal happiness. You've not created anything new. All you've done is re-package an old, heretical religion and named yourself it's god. You're just another one of those 'false teachers and prophets' that the Bible warns us about. To borrow an expression from Mr. T, "Pity the fool..." that follows you.

susanblange Loc: USA

I also do not believe in a talking donkey. Proverbs 14:15. "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going". My father orally sodomized me from the time I was born, until I was 18 months old. He did the same thing to a number of my friends. My mother looked the other way and provided him with victims. One of them was a 3 year old who was in my mother's nursery/Sunday school class and they were at my parent's house for an end of year pool party. The little girl was crying and my mother (who has died) mocked her. I don't think my mother made it to heaven. As far as being a "Messiah", time will tell.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

-------------
Actually, the story of the talking donkey is told in Numbers 22:28; not in the NT as I said. As you said you only use the Old Testament in your "religion," I was wondering if you'd correct me. You didn't. Don't you include the Book of Numbers in the OT?

I am very sorry to hear that you were a victim of 'oral sodomy' (oral incest/rape, actually) by your father. I'm equally sorry to hear that your mother condoned it. By now, I would think that you would know that the horrific actions of your parents were not anything that were allowed in the teachings of the Bible. There's absolutely no justification for what your father did to you and your friends, nor for your mother's complicity in the acts.

I can understand someone deciding that Christianity wasn't for them; especially if the actions committed against you and your friends were said to be "justified" as a part of the religion. However, myself and millions of other Christians, would be in line to tell you that what was done to you and your friends was NOT anything that was condoned by any followers of Christ. And, if you were told that those actions were, you were lied to. Religion aside, what your father and your mother did to you was a felony crime. Both should've been reported to the police, arrested and tried.

As related questions, why didn't the parents of your 3 year old friend not do anything to you parents? Also, since these actions occurred to you when you were an infant into your toddler years, when did you realize what your father was doing wasn't normal? Why did he stop once you were 18 months old? Do you have siblings? Did he somdomize them, too?

Back to your "religion," why do you use parts of the OT and not the entire Testament? Even Jews use the 1st 5 books; which includes Numbers and a story you don't believe in; yet, you use another verse from a different book to justify your not believing the story in Numbers. Your logic is miss-mash.

As I said earlier, you're 'cherry-picking' verses to justify something you spent 32 years developing. If your story about your parents is true; and since I don't know you from Adam's house cat, and have no reason not to believe your story; I now think, your new "religion" is a means of getting back at your parents for what they did to you. I understand the motivation to construct your "religion," but that still doesn't make it a valid religion. It's more of a psychological 'band-aid' you've developed, and are using, to cover-up the terrible hurt and betrayal you must feel.

I'll pray that you'll come to terms with what happened to you and get some psychological and spiritual help toward coping with it. You need to understand that simply by inventing your own religion won't remove the hurt. Also, if you can read the New Testament, with a goal of searching for the truth about how much God loves you and how much He hurts for you, that you'll see that through Him, that you'll be able to understand that the actions of your parents were NOT what God would have His people do to one another, especially parents toward their children.

"Christians" do lots of bad things to others in the names of God and Jesus. That doesn't make the actions right in any way, shape or form. People 'choose' to do the bad things to others. It's called, "free will." We always have the capability to choose to do the right or the wrong thing. Unfortunately, God takes the rap for all the negative consequences and is seldom given the credit for the positive ones. It's just another way that the devil uses to drive a wedge between God and His people.

I hope one day you'll see that forming a new "religion" isn't the right way to get over the hurt. Instead of using what happened to you as a means to get away from God, use it as a means to draw closer to Him.

susanblange Loc: USA

My parents were Christian, ala, but weren't religious and didn't go to Church till I was about 11. My father's victims were always very, very young and they weren't able to defend themselves or articulate what was happening. My father went all out with oral copulation when I was 18 months old and that was my last memory of it. I have one older brother and he wasn't abused. The entire Hebrew Bible is my holy book and pertinent verses are scattered throughout it. Isaiah 28:10. Thank you, ala, for understanding the abuse I've suffered, but it's only made me stronger.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

---------

I realize there are exceptions to every rule but, it's accepted in the 'psychological world' that earliest childhood memories "usually" don't start until 3 to 3.5 years of age, with a variance of 9 months, either way. Using this, how is it possible you can recall events that occurred, beginning at infancy and stopped at 18 months of age, as you say?

I'm not doubting your claim. It's just so far outside the norm for memories to be recalled that happened from infancy until 18 months of age.

Please explain.

susanblange Loc: USA

I started seeing a child psychiatrist when I was 15 years old, was hospitalized and in intensive psychotherapy for seven years. At that time, August, 1983, I reached a cathartic point in therapy and we uncovered some very early memories. I don't remember the abuse prior to the incident when I was 18 months old. At some point, I made a vow to myself that I was going to know and remember everything that was happening when my parents took a picture of me. There is a photograph in my baby book of me and my father holding me taken when I was four months old. It's a little hard to see it, but I remembered it and was looking for it. My father's thing was out of his pants and he was trying to hide it. My mother took the picture and I know before that, it was in my mouth.

slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas

I am not prepared nor qualified to enter into this overall fray of discussion, but I do know pregnancy can happen after anal sodomy. Semen only has to leak from the anus down the perineum and into the vaginal entrance to potentially impregnate the woman.

However, oral sodomy is not likely to cause pregnancy. :wink:

fiatlux

Augustine came up with this idea, but he was not totally convinced; the notion of "original sin" did not formally exist in the Church until Augustine. (It should be appropriately noted that toward the end of his life he summarized Christianity as this: "Love and do what you will.")

The physical has it demands, the spiritual none. We can live and breathe and succeed and prosper and propagate without the spiritual. This is our Fall. The basic demands of this life, never mind the psychological pressures, make life from around 7 on a onerous task at times. Natural. Original Sin is no more than being subject to the vagaries and needs of life. We develop defense mechanisms and store sub-conscious desires and purposes.