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Would they follow orders?
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Oct 2, 2013 09:11:09   #
grey gringo Loc: South Texas
 
Before the UN gets involved in an American conflict they should check out how many hunting licences have been sold in any of they areas they would be going.American h****rs make up the largest standing army in the world. some estimates go to above 40 million. It would take only one round from each, on target, to take out all of the troops the UN could muster. Ask the Deer if these people can shoot accurately from ambush.
UsedHorseSalesman wrote:
I think, or maybe would like to think, that American soldiers would not fire on American citizens. However there has been talk of the Blue Hats (UN Soldiers) on American soil. The speech indcates that is a possibility. He used the word States not Countries. He also apears to ask for help in any situation that may arise.

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Oct 2, 2013 22:31:23   #
Pasquali
 
boofhead wrote:
(quote=UsedHorseSalesman)Obama is replacing the laws as he goes along. He is also replacing Generals that he does think will follow his orders.
He just made a speech to the UN and I haven't seen any comments about what he said in the last part of his speech.

Obama said:

"This leads me to a final point. There will be times when the breakdown of societies is so great, the violence against civilians so substantial, that the international community will be called upon to act. This will require new thinking and some very tough choices. While the United Nations was designed to prevent wars between states, increasingly we face the challenge of preventing slaughter within states.

And these challenges will grow more pronounced as we are confronted with states that are fragile or failing, places where horrendous violence can put innocent men, women and children at risk with no hope of protection from their national institutions. I’ve made it clear that even when America’s core interests are not directly threatened, we stand ready to do our part to prevent mass atrocities and protect basic human rights. But we cannot and should not bear that burden alone."(/quote)


That sounds noble. Wh**ever is done to prompt it, whether it is legal or not, what will our soldiers do when ordered to fire on their fellow citizens? Will they pull the trigger or refuse?
i (quote=UsedHorseSalesman)Obama is replacing the... (show quote)


I hope they would refuse. I would h**e to have to fight my own people.

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Oct 2, 2013 23:52:32   #
dave t
 
Pasquali wrote:
I hope they would refuse. I would h**e to have to fight my own people.


I'm sure you recall the old saying about "hoping in one hand and
crapping in the other"; what on earth makes you think that you are so special, OR that Americans are so unique.

Every freedom living people that have ever existed on earth have had to, at one time or another, fight and k**l their fellow kinsmen to either establish or maintain their rights and liberties. THAT, lest you forget is how THIS nation was established.

The greatest of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson was quite explicit: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Join O**h K****rs http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
&
V**e Libertarian http://www.lp.org/

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Oct 3, 2013 00:06:14   #
LAwrence
 
I fear the men in uniform will obey their masters and disobey the higher law of the constitution.

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Oct 3, 2013 01:54:32   #
Roadrunner
 
Mikki wrote:
Obama is not sure the military will k**l Americans. Most military that I know have said they will not follow that order. That is why Homeland Security is at present training the civilian army that Obama spoke about before he was elected. Also, why do you think we have had Russian troups training at American bases? If you can remember Waco, Janet Reno broke federal law (Posse Comitatus) and should have been prosecuted, but wasn't. General Clark coordinated that slaughter. Nothing the government does or will do surprises me anymore.
Obama is not sure the military will k**l Americans... (show quote)

I hope the ATF and others learned from Waco not to believe false accusers.
I agree with you that the murderers (ATF agents) should have been prosecuted. They used bulldozers to push the remains of the church into the fire and destroyed the evidence at the scene. I saw that on the news at the time.

Here's a video from another site that shows Ted Cruz getting Eric Holder to finally say that k*****g Americans in the United States with drones [without a trial] would be unconstitutional. It's like pulling teeth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fkb8kcWzs
You can skip the first 3 minutes if you don't want to listen to Eric Holder keep saying it would be inappropriate rather than unconstitutional.

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Oct 3, 2013 10:14:41   #
grey gringo Loc: South Texas
 
If they don't refuse to fire on us we will have to return fire. You fight fire with fire.
Pasquali wrote:
I hope they would refuse. I would h**e to have to fight my own people.

Reply
Oct 4, 2013 01:01:54   #
mtman2
 
boofhead wrote:
These guys (ABC) are not soldiers but obviously think they are. Does it indicate a mind-set that would allow them and the real military to fire on the citizens? Look at the summary in the final paragraph:

COLLEGE GIRLS, BOTTLED WATER AND THE EMERGING AMERICAN POLICE STATE
Jul. 12, 2013 12:01am
JOHN W. WHITEHEAD - THE RUTHERFORD INSTITUTE

John W. Whitehead is president of The Rutherford Institute and author of A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State. Whitehead also drafted anti-drone legislation which is making its way through state and local legislatures.
What do college girls and bottled water have to do with the emerging American police state? Quite a bit, it seems.
Public outcry has gone v***l over an incident in which a college student was targeted and terrorized by Alcohol Beverage Control agents (ABC) after she purchased sparkling water at a grocery store. The girl and her friends were eventually jailed for daring to evade their accosters, who failed to identify themselves or approach the young women in a non-threatening manner.
What makes this particular incident significant (other than the fact that it took place in my hometown of Charlottesville, Va.) is the degree to which it embodies all that is wrong with law enforcement today, both as it relates to the citizenry and the ongoing undermining of our rule of law. To put it bluntly, due in large part to the militarization of the police and the equipping of a wide range of government agencies with weaponry, we are moving into a culture in which law enforcement officials have developed a sense of entitlement that is at odds with the spirit of our Constitution—in particular, the Fourth Amendment.
The incident took place late in the evening of April 11, 2013. Several University of Virginia college students, including 20-year-old Elizabeth Daly, were leaving the Harris Teeter grocery store parking lot after having purchased a variety of foodstuffs for an Alzheimer’s Association sorority charity benefit that evening, including sparkling water, ice cream and cookie dough, when they noticed a man staring at them as they walked to their car in the back of the parking lot.
According to a local newspaper account:
Daly said she and her friends were “terrified” when a man and woman in street clothes began knocking on her car windows in the darkened Harris Teeter parking lot… When Daly slipped her keys into the ignition to crack the windows, a male agent yanked at the door handle, banged on the window and yelled at the women to exit the vehicle… When he began to yell, other men positioned themselves around the car and the woman yelled at Daly to “go, go go,” court records state. One drew a gun. Another jumped onto the hood of the car as Daly and her friends dialed 911 to report the incident, according to the records. The women apologized repeatedly minutes later when they stopped for a car with lights and sirens on, prosecutors said. Daly’s passenger said she was handcuffed without explanation and did not get one until a Charlottesville police officer arrived.
“They were showing unidentifiable badges after they approached us, but we became frightened, as they were not in anything close to a uniform,” stated Daly. “I couldn’t put my windows down unless I started my car, and when I started my car they began yelling to not move the car, not to start the car. They began trying to break the windows. My roommates and I were … terrified.”
It wasn’t until police arrived with flashing sirens and lights that Elizabeth finally learned the identity of her attackers – they were ABC agents. Likewise, it wasn’t until the arrival of the police that the ABC agents were able to delve into the contents of the girls’ groceries, revealing their suspected contraband to be cans of LaCroix sparkling water.
Despite the fact that Daly and her friends did exactly what any young woman should do when confronted by threatening individuals in a dark parking lot, they were handcuffed and forced to spend the night in jail, with Daly being charged with three felonies—two counts of assaulting a law enforcement officer and one count of eluding police—carrying a potential of fifteen years in jail.
In justifying the agents’ actions, ABC officials point to a protocol that relies on agents having “reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause to approach individual(s) they believe have violated the law.”
Either ABC officials are being deliberately disingenuous or they don’t understand that there is a distinct difference between reasonable suspicion and probable cause, the latter of which is required by the Constitution before any government official can search an individual or his property. Then again, this distinction is often overlooked by many law enforcement officials.
In the context of police encounters with citizens in public places, probable cause is required in order for police to conduct surveillance or search an American citizen. The standard of probable cause requires that government agents and/or police have reliable evidence making it probable, i.e., more likely than not, that a crime has been committed by the person to be searched.
Reasonable suspicion, in contrast, requires less in terms of evidence and allows an officer to rely upon his experience and instincts, which, as we have seen, can often be wrong. Yet even at the lowest “reasonable suspicion” standard, an officer must have specific articulable facts supporting his belief that criminal activity is being engaged in – mere hunches or “good faith on the part of the arresting officer” is never sufficient.
While this particular incident did not end in senseless violence, it very easily could have if Daly had confronted her pursuers with any of the legally available non-lethal weapons young women are encouraged to carry today as a defensive measure.
Indeed, as incidents across the nation make clear, law enforcement officials are increasingly responding to challenges to their “authority” by using their weapons. For example, in Long Beach, California, police responded with heavy firepower to a perceived threat by a man holding a water hose. The 35-year-old man had reportedly been watering his neighbor’s lawn when police, interpreting his “grip” on the water hose to be consistent with that of someone discharging a firearm, opened fire. The father of two was pronounced dead at the scene.
These are not isolated overreactions on the part of rogue officers. As I document in my new book, A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State, they are emblematic of a growing tension over the use of militarized police to perform relatively routine tasks, resulting in situations fraught with danger to both civilians and police alike. From full tactical SWAT teams executing no-knock search warrants on the homes of law-abiding citizens over nothing more than a suspicion that the occupant owns a gun to the unlawful arrest and forced institutionalization of decorated military veterans over Facebook posts critical of the government, the events described above are becoming all too familiar in cities and towns across the country.
Moreover, in light of shooting incidents across the country involving unarmed citizens and heavily armed police, increasing numbers of Americans are understandably concerned about wh**ever factors, whether it’s an arsenal of militarized weapons and an increasing reliance on lethal weapons or insufficient training in nonviolent conflict resolution, are contributing to a seemingly “trigger happy” tendency on the part of some law enforcement officials.
This begs the question, what constitutes a threat to an officer or resisting arrest?
Among the charges levied at Daly were that she allegedly assaulted an officer and attempted to elude police, never mind that the “assault” constituted her car brushing against plainclothes, unidentifiable officers who had been banging on the windows and climbing on her car. It is particularly telling that ABC officials believe “[t]his whole unfortunate incident [involving Daly] could have been avoided had the occupants complied with law enforcement requests.”
The key word here is comply meaning to obey, submit or conform. Increasingly, law enforcement officials operate under the assumption that their word is law and that there is no room for any form of disagreement or even question. Anything short of compliance is now perceived as resistance and a potential threat.
For example, Miami-Dade police slammed a 14-year-old boy to the ground, putting him in a chokehold and handcuffing him after he allegedly gave them “dehumanizing stares” and walked away from them, which the officers found unacceptable. According to Miami-Dade Police Detective Alvaro Zabaleta, “His body language was that he was stiffening up and pulling away… When you have somebody resistant to them and pulling away and somebody clenching their fists and flailing their arms, that’s a threat. Of course we have to neutralize the threat.”
This mindset that any challenge to police authority is a threat that needs to be “neutralized” is a dangerous one that is part of a greater nationwide trend that sets law enforcement officers beyond the reach of the Fourth Amendment. It also serves to chill the First Amendment’s assurances of free speech, free assembly and the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It’s bad enough that the police now look like the military—with their foreboding uniforms and phalanx of lethal weapons—but they function like them, as well. No longer do they act as peace officers guarding against violent criminals. And no more do we have a civilian police force entrusted with serving and protecting the American people and keeping the peace.
What we are dealing with is a militarized government entity that has clearly lost sight of its overarching duty: to abide by the dictates of the U.S. Constitution and act as public servants in service to the taxpayers of this country rather than commanders directing underlings who must obey without question.
These guys (ABC) are not soldiers but obviously th... (show quote)


Yup, WE all heard of the incidence.... and will wait to see the finale! Other 'incidents' are still on standby, WE should have learned from them to properly interpret + interdict other violations to OUR Rights
If the "law-enforcement" didn't gamely hold onto their -veneered - 'professional collaboration'[thin-blue-line], the civil suit sure to come would break their individual bureaucracies bank. They certainly should be embarrassed for both the mistake and ridiculous approach. Evidently there was no shame for their stupidity or cruelty. Headquarters should make 'heads' roll here. The story shouldn't die and each individuals name[w/pic] should appear in every continuous article and TV spotlight. SHAME can be brought to any Amerikan KGB style antics, IF this follow through happens.

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Oct 4, 2013 03:41:11   #
Molly
 
I don't think you need to worry about the military being ordered to fire on its own people. What you need to be worried about is the far right extremists taking to the streets with guns and in that case they will be taken down, rightfully so imo, by local police.

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Oct 4, 2013 08:40:48   #
Dave Loc: Upstate New York
 
Molly wrote:
I don't think you need to worry about the military being ordered to fire on its own people. What you need to be worried about is the far right extremists taking to the streets with guns and in that case they will be taken down, rightfully so imo, by local police.


...any your evidence of this is.....? Time after time we see you nuts claim each and every shooting incident is some right winger, and each time we find out it really is some left wing nut who is running around free because of left wing nuts like the ACLU.

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Oct 4, 2013 09:44:58   #
Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana
 
Molly wrote:
I don't think you need to worry about the military being ordered to fire on its own people. What you need to be worried about is the far right extremists taking to the streets with guns and in that case they will be taken down, rightfully so imo, by local police.


That is what the Jews thought !

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Oct 4, 2013 09:47:06   #
Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana
 
boofhead wrote:
I often wondered why the people in Germany before and during WW2 carried out the orders issued by their government to attack and murder their fellow citizens. Not just Germany, it happened in Russia and China and Cambodia and Burma and South Africa etc as well.

Would it happen here?


With the present administration , I would be worried ?

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Oct 4, 2013 15:39:46   #
Molly
 
Because even on these forums there have been people ready to form their m*****as..

and they aren't from the left

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Oct 4, 2013 20:00:09   #
Pasquali
 
dave t wrote:
I'm sure you recall the old saying about "hoping in one hand and
crapping in the other"; what on earth makes you think that you are so special, OR that Americans are so unique.

Every freedom living people that have ever existed on earth have had to, at one time or another, fight and k**l their fellow kinsmen to either establish or maintain their rights and liberties. THAT, lest you forget is how THIS nation was established.

The greatest of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson was quite explicit: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Join O**h K****rs http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
&
V**e Libertarian http://www.lp.org/
I'm sure you recall the old saying about "hop... (show quote)


I didn't say I wouldn't fight, I said I would h**e to. I have respect for our troops. I would not take pleasure in having to fight them.

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Oct 5, 2013 08:58:13   #
Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana
 
Molly wrote:
I don't think you need to worry about the military being ordered to fire on its own people. What you need to be worried about is the far right extremists taking to the streets with guns and in that case they will be taken down, rightfully so imo, by local police.


You are really going to fit right well in one of those FEMA camps the governments has set up !
Oh no , you might be one of the left wing people putting us in the FEMA camps !

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Oct 5, 2013 09:01:30   #
Bigmac495 Loc: Indiana
 
Molly wrote:
Because even on these forums there have been people ready to form their m*****as..

and they aren't from the left


"They arent from the left " The left already has formed their m*****as , I.E. Underground weather men , Black Panthers , Muslim crazies , they have been aroung since the sixties !

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