Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

An interesting look at faith and Government from Texas Tribune

http://apps.texastribune.org/god-and-governing/

fiatlux

Wow. Interesting.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Muy interesante.

Too bad, some of those interviewed, take it upon themselves to force their religious values in a secular state. I know, that in Tennessee, our legislators make no bones about interjecting their religious beliefs into their secular decision-making.

I must wonder if they'd be so "righteous" in their judgments if we actually did have a "state religion" as they like to infer we do. ('We're a Christian nation.')

Also, our separation of church and state isn't to protect the church from the state; it IS to protect the State from an all powerful church. History shows how strong the Roman Catholic Church became after the Dark Ages. It took it upon itself to crown heads of state and give their authority through "Divine Right." The Pope had the power to excommunicate heads of state, too, thus changing a country's king if the king didn't conform to the Pope's wishes.

The Pope had the authority to begin wars. The Crusades (it's debated as to whether or not there were 7 or 8), are perfect examples.

Henry VIII, of England, was the first major monarch to break away from the Papacy, over his disagreements it's the pope as to whether or no this first marriage could be annulled. Henry began The Church of England just so he could rid himself of Papal control. Some others followed later. Among them were King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. Yep, they're the same two who financed Columbus' voyages to the West Indies.

The first Inquisition was created through papal bull, Ad Abolendam, issued at the end of the twelfth century by Pope Lucius III as a way to combat the Albigensian heresy in southern France. There were a huge number of tribunals of the Papal Inquisition in various European kingdoms during the Middle Ages. In the Kingdom of Aragon, a tribunal of the Papal Inquisition was established by the statute of Excommunicamus of Pope Gregory IX, in 1232, during the era of the Albigensian heresy. Its principal representative was Ramon de Penyafort. With time, its importance was diluted, and, by the middle of the fifteenth century, it was almost forgotten although still there according to the law.

The "Spanish Inquisition" was originally intended, in large part, to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave Spain.

Various motives have been proposed for the popes' monarchs' decision to found the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos, profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics, reducing social tensions, and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column.

The Spanish Inquisition can be seen as an answer to the multi-religious nature of Spanish society following the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Muslim Moors. After invading in 711, large areas of the Iberian Peninsula were ruled by Muslims until 1250, when they were restricted to Granada, which fell in 1492. However, the Reconquista did not result in the total expulsion of Muslims from Spain, since they, along with Jews, were tolerated by the ruling Christian elite. Large cities, especially Seville, Valladolid and Barcelona, had significant Jewish populations centered in Juderia, but in the coming years the Muslims were increasingly subjugated by alienation and torture. The Jews, who had previously thrived under Muslim rule, now suffered similar maltreatment.

A Dominican friar from Seville, convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of the existence of a "secret Judaism" among Andalusian converts (Jewish to Catholic) during her stay in Seville between 1477 and 1478. A report, produced by the Archbishop of Seville corroborated this assertion.

The monarchs decided to introduce the Inquisition to Castile to discover and punish secret-Jews, and requested the pope's assent. Ferdinand II of Aragon pressured Pope Sixtus IV to agree to an Inquisition controlled by the monarchy by threatening to withdraw military support at a time when the Turks were a threat to Rome. The pope issued a bull to stop the Inquisition but was pressured into withdrawing it. On 1 November 1478, Pope Sixtus IV published the Papal bull, through which he gave the monarchs exclusive authority to name the inquisitors in their kingdoms.

In 1482 the pope was still trying to maintain control over the Inquisition and to gain acceptance for his own attitude towards the New Christians, which was generally more moderate than that of the Inquisition and the local rulers.

In 1483, Jews were expelled from all of Andalusia. Though the pope wanted to crack down on abuses, Ferdinand pressured him to promulgate a new bull, threatening that he would otherwise separate the Inquisition from Church authority. Sixtus did so on October 17, 1483.

Procedures were quickly established for the Inquisition. A new court would be announced with a thirty-day grace period for confessions and the gathering of accusations by neighbors. Evidence that was used to identify a secret-Jew included the absence of chimney smoke on Saturdays (a sign the family might secretly be honoring the Sabbath) or the buying of many vegetables before Passover or the purchase of meat from a converted butcher. The court employed physical torture to extract confessions. Secret-Jews were allowed to confess and do penance, although those who relapsed were burned at the stake.

Although records are incomplete, estimates of the number of persons charged with crimes by the Inquisition range up to 150,000, with 2,000 to 5,000 people executed.

Most of this info comes from Wikipedia.

fiatlux

For me, there can be no compromise: you are either a Christian or an American. A Christian has no rights: there is merely the enormous privilege and opportunity to care for the least of these in any way they can. Nothing else should matter.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

Hmmm, servant leadership.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Interesting..... "...no compromise," "...either...or... ."

When Jesus was called a "Galilean" He never objected to His association with that province. Plus, He did admit to being, "King of the Jews," and said, "...render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." He also said, "My kingdom is not of this world." From these quotes, could it be possible that Jesus was allowing for His followers to claim citizenship in both, Heaven and Earth?

fiatlux

Amen.

fiatlux

Interesting. I do not see how not objecting to being called a native of a particular area as threatening his sole citizenship in heaven. He is not claiming that as his sovereign state. "Render unto Caesar..." is a proclamation of life in the spiritual kingdom of God for it forsakes the worldly concerns paramount to most Jews at that time about their earthly condition.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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But, you said that one can't be a Christian and an American; that it's either/or. I'm not following your logic. I'm an American and a Christian; although, at times, my actions might appear otherwise to others, in terms of my Christianity. (I'm referencing a previous post of yours where you chastised me and Dave during our argument/discussion/debate.:XD: :thumbup:

America a unique situation. It's relatively new on the scene. It's, also, one of the few western-democracy countries that doesn't have a "state religion." Supposedly, were allowed to worship what we want, how we want and when we want. That our religion and its practice thereof, is separate and independent of our requirements and duties to the state.

Now, in my view, since the rise of the Moral Majority and the Christian Right, Christianity has been used to beat others over the head; declaring that unless you believe God wants us to do this or that, as adjudicate by whomever is speaking on behalf of the Moral Majority and the Christsin Right, at the time, you can't declare yourself a Christian. I, and many other Christians, don't subscribe to that politicizing of Christianity. We don't feel it's very "Christian-like" to dictate and/or force our religious beliefs on others. That we're entitled to worship God without their interference and dictates. They, too, are free to worship God as they see fit, but their way isn't nesessairly the right way. Unfortunately, it's their voices and faces that get projected in the TV screens as THE representatives of the majority of Christians in this country. Sadly, they are neither Christian nor the majority. They are the ones with the most money and they are very good at demonizing those of us with different political/social/economic views. I suppose they think that if they can't convince me to change my views via the political way, then, they'll threaten my soul with eternal damnation if I don't convert to their politics. This is nothing new, either. History is replete with political powers using religion to keep their people in line.

In this country, Constitutionally, we have the right to declare ourselves allied to any religion or non-religion we want to; and, practice it in any way we feel the need, as long as it doesn't cause harm to anyone or anything, else. That doesn't negate our American citizenship, however.

I don't know what your religious bend is. You seem to have a decent grasp of Christianity, so, I can assume you've studied it, at a minimum. I can assume, too, that you're a citizen of the USA, as well. So, if you can claim Christianity as your religion and you can claim being a citizen of the US, you are both, a Christian and an American.

TAG!! You're it! 8-) :thumbup: :lol: ;-)