fiatlux

Who would not be outraged at Coulter's introduction for Trump, seamlessly weaving bigotry with the Bible (never mind her racist and xenophobic book)? Who would not be outraged at Trump supporter's feeling free to make ugly and racist comments encouraged by his views? I am deeply puzzled by, and highly judgmental of, his support among so-called evangelical Christians: Have any of them read the Bible? Am I off here?

Only recently has the question of my big mouth cause me pause. Before, I did not care a hoot whose "delicate toes" I may have stomped on by my comments, and there have been many over at least two decades. My thoughts on that: "Grow up. Get better arguments. Research! And stop whining." But I had overlooked some very essential research myself.

Turn the other cheek. Go the extra mile. Treat all--ALL--with gentleness, respect, and kindness. Love your enemy. (When were those things added to Scripture?) So I have been wrong and have wronged in my approach. I still want room for calling conservatives compassionless, mean-spirited, and greedy, only knowing Christ during an election year. It feels so right and good. But what does it accomplish? Greater division and deepening wounds on both sides. Can I change? As much as I may hate to, I will try.

Loki Loc: Georgia

I assume you are referring to Ms Coulter's latest book, Adios, America. what parts of the book do you find objectionable? I have looked up the comments of Senator Jacob Howard, the man who wrote the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. He specifically stated that it was intended ONLY to grant full citizenship to former slaves. He said it did NOT apply to the children of foreigners born in this country. This is from the man who wrote the Amendment. What is so hard to understand? in Elk v Wilkins, 1884, the Supreme Court held that John Elk, an Indian born in the US, was not a birthright citizen, because his parents were not citizens. This was not corrected until 1924, and applied only to Native Americans. In 1898, US v Wong Kim Ark, the Court ruled that Wong Kim WAS a citizen because his parents were LEGAL immigrants. In 1982, a Supreme Court Justice, Warren Burger, inserted an opinion in a Supreme Court decision that he Personally believed that the children of wetbacks had birthright citizenship, but nothing the Supreme Court has ever ruled on, and nothing in the comments of the author of the citizenship clause of the Fourteentb Amendment has ever even remotely suggested this is so.

She Wolf Loc: Currently Georgia

I can't comment on Ms Coulter's latest book for the simple reason, I haven't read it. I can comment on the situation we are now experiencing in our so called immigration policy.

I am not a Christian so this opinion has nothing to do with the Christian faith. When we hold ourselves up as doing the right thing by allowing criminal behavior to be rewarded, we are hypocrites. What sort of life are we really giving these people we claim to be helping? They are exploited by our government as well as the companies that hire them. Before we solve Mexico's poverty problem should we not solve our own?

We do not care for our elderly, our vets, our disabled, or our poor. Every one so appreciates the service of our Vets, but we refuse to care for the ones harmed by their service.

When any candidate mentions religion, I am through listening. To most it is nothing more than a tool to appeal to a group of voters. You can't claim to love your fellow man while at the same time allowing people to die for lack of money and medical treatment. You can't justify this behavior by blaming the victim. The co-called family values of all our representatives are either non-existent or completely skewed.

As to voicing your opinions in a respectful manner, we should all do so but we are human. For now, you are free to express how you feel. I may not agree but I feel you have the right to say whatever you wish in whatever form you feel best expresses your feelings on a subject. Anything less is censorship.

fiatlux

You study the amendments well. But I really appreciate such a concise peek into the 14th. Never knew the background...and it does not directly relate to my point. American or Christian is an either/or question: a Christian cannot be both on any issue. The xenophobic and nationalistic rhetoric of Trump and Coulter is a spiritual malady, one they want to infect others with. You know the code words for genocide: they are not like us. Then all the troubles of the nation are heaped on these scapegoats. Whatever the 14th actually intended is of no concern to me; what is of concern is the despicable us and them set up by the Right on a consistent basis, as with these two kumquats.

Loki Loc: Georgia

You are not making sense. It is not xenophobic to require your elected leaders to maintain control of your borders, and to wish for the removal of those who have entered this country illegally.
More than a third of the prisoners in Federal prisons for felonies are illegals.
More than a third of the prisoners in several state prisons are illegals.
About 27to 30 percent of Hispanic families are on government assistance of some sort, unless they are wetback thieves, in which case the number jumps to almost 70%. We pay out more entitlements to illegals than to US citizens, per capita.
In the past 10 years, wetbacks have cost US taxpayers more than one trillion dollars in entitlements, legal and prison costs, and the free medical, dental and housing assistance they receive, plus education and free lunches for their children. Our own children, and those of legal immigrants, suffer because of the drag these non-English speaking toddlers put on the educational system.
You consider wishing to put a stop to law-breaking freeloaders who sneak into our country for a handout xenophobic?

fiatlux

In answer to your last question, not exactly. I want you to look at your case. Honestly. What is the picture you present of Mexicans in general by what you presented? I would see it as case closed: they are exactly as Trump and Coulter say: no good to the bone.

"More than a third of the prisoners in Federal prisons for felonies are illegals." And if they were white and rich, what would be their status? Look at the overwhelming Black population in prison, especially for marijuana charges: equal use between both colors and 8 to 1 incarceration rate. 87% of stop and frisk in NYC were minorities. Do you see where this is leading? We are making a financial problem into a people problem and those people will suffer for it. RACISM is very much alive. Minorities are treated unfairly and unjustly everyday of the week. Touting figures to prove their "criminal" character (distorted and exaggerated by prejudice of the ruling class) is groundwork for genocide or the next worst political solution.

Loki Loc: Georgia

Much more so than white prisoners, blacks are frequently recidivists, fiatlux. Not only repeat offenders, but are far more frequently carrying multiple charges. Much of the time their "drug sentence" is the result of a plea bargain in which other, more serious charges are dropped, and they only do time for the charges of record, the more minor drug charges. This actually favors black over white inmates. There is less selectivism and racism than you might think. Blacks are far more likely to have charges dropped and plead to a lesser offense. This is one of the main reasons why there are so many more black drug offenders in prison than white. This is cold, hard fact. You know I don't make this stuff up, you know I research it, and I don't take the word of some right or left wing rag as my sole source.
You have also neglected to address the fact that blacks are far more likely than whites to commit violent crimes. Blacks commit more than 50% of the murders in this country, even though they are only 13% of the population. They commit lesser violent offenses at a much higher rate. According to data published by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who are far less worried about soft pedaling racially damaging statistics, the same situation obtains in Canada. Blacks, at about 2% of the population, are responsible for violent crimes all out of proportion to their numbers. The Island of Jamaica, with some of the strictest gun control in the world, where it is almost impossible for anyone to legally own a firearm, has a murder rate literally ten times as high as ours. According to UN statistics, the US overall murder rate, in spite of all our nasty guns is 4.1 per 100,000. Jamaica's is 39.4 per 100,000.
Your comment about minorities, at least in regards to Federal prisons, is skewed, because so many of the Hispanic prisoners are wetbacks. Native born US citizens of Hispanic descent are most generally law-abiding. If you object to my use of the term "wetback," I am sorry. I save my respect for those who deserve it, and foreign criminals who sneak into my country with the intention of committing still more crimes are not among that number. Objecting to the use of disparaging terms when describing criminals legitimizes them, something I do not intend to do.

Your statement that I generalize all Mexicans as bad is blatantly false. I have stated repeatedly that there are tens of thousands of Mexicans who cross the border, stay a day or a week, and conduct their legitmate business and go home. they are not the problem now, and never have been, nor have I ever lumped them together with US born Hispanics, (I do not include anchor babies in this US born designation ), as being inherently criminal. I am not even worried about people who overstay their visas by a couple of weeks. That is no big deal. Overstaying their visa by a couple of months, or a couple of years is a little different.

fiatlux

What you say that I have "neglected to address" is the prima facie evidence for my case. Minorities are 4x more likely to be arrested and charged, go to prison, get stiffer sentences, and be repeat offenders because of inherent injustice in our legal system. Racism, despite Fox News disclaimers, is not dead.

Go to utube and watch at least ten videos that reveal the skewed view of minorities vs whites. It will curl your toes. A white man beats his girlfriend nearly to death and it is reduced to simple assault; a minority stops an assault by his wife gets attempted murder. This is not liberal bs but the day-to-day workings of our "justice" system.

Loki Loc: Georgia

I suppose these are commonplace occurences that you can document? Or one instance? Or are they simply generic "examples?" I explained to you one reason for the discrepancies is the fact that many minorities are repeat offenders with multiple charges who plea bargain. YouTube is hardly an honest or accurate representation of the actual situation. YouTube is about making money, and sensationalism, and getting hits so you can get paid for advertising, not accurate reporting.
As far as the arrest rate of minorities, I will assume you mean blacks and Hispanics. Have you ever wondered why Asians are so underrepresented? Are they not brown enough to qualify? I have given you facts. Statistics that I researched from the US DOJ and FBI, from reports published by the UN, and from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Your refutation comes in the form of suggesting I watch You Tube Videos. Come on, Fiatlux. You can do better than that, or do you not wish to have your cage of preconceived notions rattled? You level all these charges of institutional racism and offer YouTube as authentication?
In a way, this reminds me of a piece I did a couple of years ago on black slave owners in the US, prior to the War Between the States. I was called all sorts of racist names, and asked from which KKK publication I obtained my information. The crickets were deafening when I revealed my main sources as the US Census, the writings of Frederick Douglass, and a very well done series by MSNBC.

fiatlux

We both know that statistics lie and liars use statistics. Take NYC's stop and frisk campaign. If they published the finding that 90% of those stopped or questioned for a criminal offense were minorities, what can we conclude? Nothing! They profiled this group.

Research shows that Blacks and Whites use drugs in the same percentage. Yet almost 4xs more than Whites do Blacks get arrested and charged, are sentenced to prison and get stiffer sentencing. It is not black and white (and it is Black and White.) Despite what Fox News and others on the Right say, racism is very much alive and well in America.

Loki Loc: Georgia

*******
You might want to think very hard before calling me a liar again, fiatlux. I do not lie, I research my facts carefully numerous sources. Tread lightly. Fair warning.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

I find it interesting that the "progressives" call everyone who does not buy into their concepts a liar. I know a lot of Christians and they are not racist homophobes. They are happy to reach out to those who need help whether they are black, white or brown, and many work in such places as HIV hospice care even though in this country the largest group of new cases of HIV are homosexuals (around 80%) so they are not afraid of homosexuals. Many like me are tired of being blamed for behavior that we are not responsible for, whether it is the promiscuity of homosexuals, or the statistics that show 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock, and fatherless children are most likely to commit crimes and also to have been raised in poverty. the poverty is not the problem, it is the direct result of the behavior, not the other way around.

fiatlux

Sorry, I was afraid it might be read that way and worried about it. I see you as a most honorable man. But your stats prove nothing.

"Over three thousand conspirators for the overthrow of the government were arrested by Emperor Nero's elite guard and duly put to death. This menace to law and order, and reason as well, that goes by the name of a common criminal executed for rebellion against the state, Christianity, will be relentlessly pursued by the state until they all meet the justice of the sword." AP

For me, this is how your stats read.

fiatlux

I find it interesting that the "conservatives" put words in other people's mouth that they did not say or even meant to imply. I never called Loki a liar. And as for the rest of what you said, npp, I applaud you and their effort but do not associate me with condemning Christians because of a particular view on a certain subject. It does not all get neatly lumped together.

Do you have any idea of the effects of poverty? The day-in and day-out hunger and doing without. The constant uncertainty. The pressure of providing. The children only knowing want and lack on almost ever level. And on the corner a man who can solve that ache and more; "Just work for me." A steady dose of frustration, depression, and hopelessness. Eat or use that money to look for work. The school in this "bad neighborhood" not providing a decent education; teachers just looking to get by and survive. What to put on that job application?

Studies show that simply being raised poor negatively effects the brain. The development of the frontal lope, necessary for value judgment, is slow to or does not mature. Add desperation and a constant gnawing hunger and what do you think happens?

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

Something I noticed in the exchange between Loki and flatlux is the comment about 1/3 of our prison population being "illegals."
IF that is the case, and these people ARE illegals, then what's stopping them from being returned to their home countries? If the illegals are already in prison, then shipping them home should be a "no-brainer."

BTW flatlux, take it from someone who has butted heads with Loki on several occasions and lived to tell about it, one thing he doesn't do is lie. He may have some bad info on occasion, but a liar he's not. He's one of the few conserves on here that knows how to research his topic. Plus, he'll pounce on you like a duck on a June-bug if he spots a weakness in your argument. Matching wits or arguing with Loki is a very intense endeavor.

Just saying... :thumbup: