no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mkjaP3HEO8

I came across this video the other day and am putting it in the religion section because of the way he presents the studies. Even if you are absolutely convinced that GAY is written on your brain while you are in the womb, please watch this loving and compassionate presentation. follow the studies and the statistics he presents, but listen to his wonderful compassion and the love and caring he puts into the subject. We should all learn much from this man.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

I'm going to watch this when I have time. This is the single most divisive issue in the gay community. If indeed the "gay mind" is a defect caused by: your genes, biochemistry, and emotional vulnerability (to name a few failure modes), then homosexuality can be cured. There are those that describe their behavior as a lifestyle choice and others that claim they are born that way. Both of these perceptions are polar opposite from one another, since a choice is like picking from a menu and those that believe they were born that way typically spend their life searching for what that means and may voice it among their straight friends, which is why I bring it up.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

This scientist has presented in a caring and kind way what the research shows. I am trying to find out more about him and see if i can get information on some of the studies he references. I too, want to know the truth and the entire story, not just what the activists on either side claim. I can understand why the gay rights activists will reject anything that interferes with the rights issue, so want to get the whole story and keep up to date on the issue.

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

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Then, is heterosexuality a "choice?" Can we "choose" to only have sex with those of the opposite gender?

A very dear friend of mine was married to his wife for about 17 years. They couldn't have kids, so they adopted a child from China. About a year after that, he "came out." According to him, he'd felt sexually attracted to men ALL his life. He even told that to his wife before they married, but promised to refrain from homosexual encounters.

Come to find out, he'd been with many men over the span of their marriage. He'd still be living his "behind her back" lifestyle if he hadn't contracted syphilus of the mouth and was compelled to 'come clean.' He said that he was glad he caught the disease as it forced him to realize who/what he really was - gay.

While they did divorce, they remain very good and close friends. They even take family vacations together?

One of my wife's first cousins was in a similar situation, although he never married, until recently, and then, to his partner of 15 years. He tried for 25 years to suppress his sexual desires for men. He dated several women and was intimate with a few of them, too. But, he never could get the same kind of sexual and emotional satisfication from women that he got from men. Finally, he gave up trying to "hide from [him]self" and admit to the world that he was gay.

One of my own first cousins shares a story very similar to my wife's cousin. After a long time of frustration, denial and living in shame, he decided his life was worth living, even if as a gay man.

A common factor with these 3 men is that they tried to live as heterosexuals. They all came close to suicide multiple time in their lives, just because our society, through the guise of religion, says that their lives aren't worth living if they live as open homosexuals.

Another common characteristic is that all 3 claim that they KNEW they were "different" as young children; yet, try all tried to conform to society's and their Christian dictates.

My wife has another first cousin. Now, he is what I'd describe as a "flamer." He's really out there with his gayness. He dresses, acts and talks the part. Plus, he's a fairly recent "convert" to the gay scene. I say that he definitely "chose" to be gay. He claims its his way of rebelling against his very strict Christian upbringing. He knows that by him behaving in this manner that he's hurting his parents. This is their punishment from him. For what, I can't answer.

So, from these experiences and a few others of gay men I know, I draw my conclusion that in a portion of the gay community there are some who "choose" the lifestyle and others that are, simply "born that way."

Lastly, DB, if, as you say, being gay might be a disease, and as such, fixable, how would one classify a birth defect that leaves a baby deformed? I tend to think of being gay in those terms; not a disease, necessarily, but perhaps a defect. In which case, the person, literally, has no control over it.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

I said it was defect, caused by: biochemistry, genes or exposure. I didn't say anything about choice in my remarks nor do I judge someone about their semantics, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

My wife used to clean for a psychiatrist at the University of Michigan, who specialized in treating sexual problems. She wrote a book about transsexualism and wrote a book about counseling someone that is gender confused (to put it colloquially).
In that book she stated that we are very much aware of our sexual proclivity by the time we are 6 years old.
I'm assuming that you are attracted to women. I was chasing tail by the time was 6, I even remember the first girl I kissed, Kathy Barrett was her name. Yea, I think the urges are inborn, innate and in fact uncontrollable. Imagine living your life with the lie that you aren't "right". Being told that you're messed up or sinful for being who you aren't.
Isn't wonderful how the church maintains their control through such manipulation?
No wonder they are so scared and are even producing more wacky crap than then normal they are losing control and thus power.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

I hope you both have watched the video. the question is still open, but apparently the combination of environment, genetics, and sociatial influence are involved. since some people can be same sex attracted early in life and opposite sex attracted later in life, the attraction is not fixed in stone. As far as feeling different as children, I was born with a severe curvature of the spine, different definitely. My brother was molested for a two year period and therefore had doubts whether he wanted it, not helped by my father calling him a fag when he found out and blamed a ten to twelve year old boy for the molestation. I would expect that our father's reaction and rejection was more damaging than the repeated rapes. what ever he spent time in the gay scene, time using drugs and another part of his life trying to dry out. What caused his homosexual behavior was probably a combination of all. A number of boys we have worked with have had similar questions and doubts, after being molested. Someday there may be answers, but in the meantime, saying that a young person who has same sex attractions MUST be homosexual is doing a disservice to those who can rid themselves of unwanted same sex attractions.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

Rape of any kind is done by a manipulator, which is a whole different category of behavior. They are psychopaths: period. It isn't about sex or perceived sexuality, they use sex to manipulate. Some psychopaths use information or befriend you in a manner to manipulate, at the apex of the methods is manipulation. I've worked for a couple of psychopaths, so I know what they do to try to get in your head.

Your brother was the target of a manipulator. Anyone that has sex with children is a psychopath because they cannot empathize with their victim. They seek emotions by manipulating someone else because they are so empty inside. My mother-in-law suffers from narcissistic personality disorder and skirts on the edge of psychopathic tendencies. She attempts to constantly manipulate people. She ain't as pretty as she used to be, so she is rebuffed by the manipulation.

Someone who has same sex at age appropriate times in their life are not psychopaths, that is who they are: homosexuals. They choose to act on their impulses. Just like anyone acts on their more common impulse of opposite sex attraction. How that impulse gets generated in our psyche, is not for me to say.

Societal influence, even today, does not view homosexuality any differently; hence the reason why we are talking about it. It isn't natural, to 95% of the population. I get a reaction every time I start writing with my left-hand: "I didn't know you were left-handed". And I remark: "What difference does it make? Do you understand what I'm saying?"

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

Both SWMBO and I are also left handed, but are more ambidextrous than most right handed people are. What difference does it make that we are left handed? The world is set up for right handed people, from telephones, to which side the door opens on, to how silverware is set up on the table. Even which side a trained dog is supposed to walk on when you have him on heal command is right handed. the reason the dog is on the left is because when men carried swords they did so on their right side, so the dog had to be on the other side. that is the same reason that you mount a horse so that the sword is not in the way of your mounting . Maybe the 25% who are left handed should demand equal rights. come to think of it, wedding bands are worn on the left hand, which makes writing more difficult for left handed people. Time to start a revolution for equal rights for us left handed people.

Seriously though, many men who have sex with boys honestly believe that it is an equal loving relationship. the concept behind NAMBLA is not of rape but of intergenerational sexual relationships, and they believe that the "affair" was good for both the man and the boy. Many cultures throughout history believed the same thing, not regarding five year olds, but boys ten and older were considered loving relationships. Just because it was technically rape doesn't mean that the man grabbed him threw him to the ground and rapped him. It is considered rape when a school teacher female has sex with a 13 year old male student because the child is not old enough to make a grown up decision.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

alabuck Loc: Tennessee

Poppino

Like the alcoholic gene it is not determinism but subtle persuasivism. You take a beer and your being lights up. You have never felt this good or free before. That is because there is a host of physiological activities promoting this feeling genetically pre-determined. How it effects the brain, how the liver metabolizes it, how the cells of the body react. At a young enough age for that first drink, alcohol is a loving god bestowing the best life has to offer.

Gender is a spectrum: that is scientific fact. No one is pure male or pure female; we are all a mix of both to varying degrees. This is NATURAL. And verifiable! And God made us so.... But not all same-sex attraction is natural. Some is perverted and some is coerced. The trouble here is knowing the heart--and only God knows.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

...you are on fire!.....

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

Are you saying that all biological urges are uncontrollable, or just that all sexually directed biological urges are uncontrollable and therefore should be acted on. In that case having a dozen sex partners and wanting that to be legal and have the same rights as a one man one woman marriage should be a matter of law. so should the urge to have sex with animals, minors, or forcible sex (rape)? Or is it that the one you approve of is the only one that is uncontrollable which is two men or two women? the premise that urges are uncontrollable and must be validated and acted upon leaves the field of behavior wide open, nothing is criminal because people cannot control their behavior, and are no more responsible for what they do than a rat is. We hold our dogs to a higher standard than that, correcting their mistakes in behavior and rewarding them for doing it right.

Dummy Boy Loc: Michigan

Hey big guy, I finally started watching the video. The ONLY problem I had with it is that it was geared toward ONE audience. Now that being said, it doesn't make it wrong, but there wasn't a debate going on to challenge his position.

Otherwise, you are correct: he was thoughtful presenter.

The problem is the inherent bias or subjectivity he pursued his position, again, his audience wants that.

In fact the homosexual community will reject (or actually rejects) the biological model, since it means they have a disease or they are defective. I agree with the biological model, since my "biology" drove me to seek out women. I can't fight it, wouldn't know how to...anymore than a homosexual can fight their needs. Homosexuality can no more be "fixed" than being right hand versus left handed. Clearly you see that homosexuality as a spectrum that one must be lead by a combination of factors. I for one, don't believe it.

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

I am trying to find out more about this speaker. Yes, it was geared toward one group. Apparently, in addition to being Christians for the most part, the audience was made up of people with an education, not those who barely passed high school, which made the discussion more interesting. for some time the biological model worked fine for the LGBTQ concepts, born that way, unchangeable, must be genetic. but now that the human gnome has been mapped and there is no indication that there is a gay gene (which makes sense because behavior is way to complicated for that) The activists are somewhat in a quandrey. It is apparent that sexual attractions can be fluid, and often fluctuate. What I found most interesting was the 26 studies that found the percentage of children raised by homosexual couples who also are homosexual was many times higher than if raised by heterosexual couples, which does say that environment plays a significant part in the behavior. After all the babies were not the product of male to male matings, or female to female matings, were they? That has also been the problem with identical twin studies, since the twins are usually raised in the same household. the only valid studies would be identical twins separated at birth. That studies show there are over thirty percent of people who wanted to no longer have same sex attractions and were successful in doing so, shows promise, for those who want to go that route. Never should anyone be forced to try to change their attraction against their wishes.
If I can find more information on the speaker, I will post it.