Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

A.T.Robertson tells us in his book "A GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT; Page 389 - "When the Grammarian has finished, the Theologian will step in, and sometimes before the Grammarian is through."

We read in the Bible about the fall of Man and Woman in the Garden. We even have Men who developed a doctrine about "Original Sin" and its inherent effect upon the souls of all mankind. It is suggested by Theologian Scholars, that sin becomes "inevitable," even to the point scripture is changed to accomodate the doctrines of men.

Look to Luke who tells of the event - "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [Luke. 18:11-14]

The translators have changed this verse from "Be merciful to me the sinner," to "be merciful to me a sinner." The change is enormous, as we stand before God imploring forgiveness because after all, we are simply one among many, "a sinner" among many sinners. The enormity of our disobedience becomes of minor consequence if we can share the blame among the species, instead of admitting I am the one under consideration, individually.

If however, I am to assess the association between my God and myself, and freely admit "I am the sinner" in this association, "You are the God" it eliminates all other consideration as to who is the culprit in need of God's mercy. It is "I." I am in need of all of God's mercy, not simply a portion among billions who will only serve to dilute my share.

It is no wonder we shrug off the significance of our situation, we have been taught "the inevitability of sin" and thus do not feel the enormity of the loss of innocence when we sin. It is after all, "inevitable." (I can't help myself, I inherited it from Father Adam.")

But scripture tells us a far different story, if only the theologians would wait until the whole story is told, the Theologians who jumped the gun on this doctrinal blunder. We are told almost from the start, that we are all under the inherited sin of Adam, called "Original Sin." The truth of this is soon discovered with a simple walk through the scriptures.

Paul declares to us "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"[Rom.. 2:14-15] - showing that the doctrine of "Original Sin" cannot be the standard by which men are to be assessed Faithful.

This brings us to the question, "Is there any place in all of scripture that this assessment is verified favorably over the doctrine of "Original sin?" The answer is a resounding YES!

The Scriptures plainly tell us of a man who lived for three-hundred-and-sixty-five years, and "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."[Heb.. 11:5]

The original story is told in Genesis 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Consider the point in time at which Eve sinned; "...but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression." [I Tim 2:13] Adam at that precise point in time had not sinned, and retained his pristine purity. If there is ANY doctrine of "original sin" in scripture, it is through the woman, not the man. Jesus, and not any other man under heaven, being "exclusively" the "seed of the woman" would have inherited "Original sin."

Adam was not the "original sinner" so could not be the source of "original sin." "Eve, being deceived, was in the transgression." Adam was not. Therefore, "original sin" predates Adam's transgression. Adam sinned in that, after being instructed by the voice of God Himself, he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife."

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

If Enoch "inherited Original sin," it was not from Adam, for "original sin" had already taken place prior to Adam's transgression. And Enoch was RIGHTEOUS. As also was Noah, and Daniel, and Job.[Ezek. 14:13-20] Whence this "righteousness?"

One of the critical "articles of Faith" states that the reason Jesus was to be called the "seed of the woman," was to protect him from this alleged "stain of original sin." Look to the man-made doctrine of "the Immaculate conception" and see the doctrinal error in action.

If, in fact, Eve sinned first [and. she did], that singular act would have to be "ORIGINAL sin," which would in turn make Jesus the direct heir of that terrible indictment; man-made doctrines of men to the contrary. It demonstrates for all generations, the one unalterable fact, that man cannot improve on God's scriptures with their own doctrines.

I Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

The direct descendent of the original sinner -
II Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I Tim 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefaced ness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But which becometh women professing godliness with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

God established for all time that "The soul that sins, it shall die."
The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, -Ezekiel 18:1 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? Eze 18:2

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Eze 18:3

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze 18:4

But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 5 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 6 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 7 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 8 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; 9 he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. [Eze. 18:5-9]

If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 10 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, 11 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 12 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: 13 he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. [Eze. 18:10-13]

Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. [Eze. 18:14-17]

As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. -Eze 18:18

yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. -Eze 18:19

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. -Eze 18:20

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. -Eze 18:21

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. -Eze 18:22

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? -Eze 18:23

but when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. -Eze 18:24

Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? -Eze 18:25

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. -Eze 18:26

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. -Eze 18:27

Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. -Eze 18:28

Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? -Eze 18:29

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. -Eze 18:30

cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? -Eze 18:31

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. -Eze 18:32


Original sin, as a doctrine, is not found in scripture. It is man made, and false.

Men say "Does not the son bear the iniquity of the father?" (Doctrine of original sin)

"When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live."

"The soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE, The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." [Eze. 18:19-20]

"...in his trespass that he hath trespassed and in his sin that he hath sinned, IN THEM SHALL HE DIE." [Eze. 18:24B]

"...for his iniquity that HE HATH DONE shall he die." [Eze 18:26B

Scripture teaches over and over again, that a man perishes for his own evil deeds, not for the deeds of his father. To suppose that all men bear Adam's sin, is to suppose Adam could have saved all men by living a righteous life. And THAT is simply not true either.

Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

We are all descendants of Enoch just as much as we are descended from Adam, with one proviso - We are closer to Enoch by seven Generations. So we should comprehend that we are closer to the righteousness of Enoch than to the sin of Adam. Add to that the fact of Jesus' sacrifice to set us free from sin and the consequences thereof, and we have no excuse other than bad choices, for our continuing in rebellion against God.

By this accounting we are all descendants of Enoch, who pleased God, who was translated that he did not taste death. We should be able therefore, to discern that there is no doctrine from scripture that teaches of Original sin, inherited from Adam and passing upon all mankind.

But Enoch did not stop with giving us an example of faithfulness, but left us with a warning for our consideration - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage." [Jude.. 1:14-16]

susanblange Loc: USA

What Adam and Eve did in the garden is called "original sin". This was an act of oral sodomy. Adam himself was the Tree of Knowledge and he was commanded not to eat from the tree before Eve was created. Eve heard about this command of God from Adam. Adam comes to Eve and asks her, did God say? Not only was Eve Adam's wife, she was also his daughter. If we are subject to the consequences of original sin, only males inherit it. You've heard of men being called "dickheads", (I coined that term) and it is one of the reasons for circumcision.

fiatlux

What we know of truth our beliefs cannot inform us. This sentence is the pass to real freedom. Please, dwell on it for a good long while.

There is a Buddhist story similar to the Pharisee and the Publican. Two disciples were following the Buddha and he said to the one nearest, "Your incarnations are as to the leaves of that tree almost bare." And that disciple muttered to himself, "Surely I am closer than that." To the other disciple, Buddha said of a tree in full bloom, "Your incarnations are as the leaves of that tree," and he said to himself, "How gracious is the Buddha."

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Called by Men. Not by God. God tells us of Satan's lie, which certainly predated the "sin" of the first couple.

Regardless, there is no bible doctrine such as the nonsense published by Theologians about "Original Sin" whereby man inherits it from Adam and is "totally depraved." It is complete man-made nonsense.



In your zeal you are mixing ignorance with stupidity.
"Sodomy" is when something is inserted analy and "oral" pertains to the mouth; your "Oral sodomy" would be sticking one's mouth in another's anus, which can't be done.



Do you really believe Adam was told "Do not eat yourself?"

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was "placed in the middle of the garden." Adam roamed freely about the garden while dressing and keeping it. Do you really believe Adam was planted in the middle of the garden?



How do you read your bible? Adam did not come to Eve and say any such thing. SATAN did. Do you really believe Adam is SATAN? Does that make Messiah the second SATAN?



Totally, bizarre and bogus. Adam knew his WIFE and they begot sons and daughters.[Gen 5:4] Adam's WIFE was made from Adam's rib; Adam's DAUGHTERS were begotten by Adam of Eve, his wife.



Again, read your bible instead of books about the bible. Adam did not commit the first sin committed by Humanity. EVE did, and brought the fruit to Adam, and he did eat.[Gen 3:6]



If that is true, you must be several years old. That expression was "coined" in 1964. If you are 51 years old and spoke from day one..... maybe. Otherwise you are making it up as you go.



So God commanded circumcision to Abraham because YOU coined the term? How silly!

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

Please give the scripture reference where you see this "similar story."

susanblange Loc: USA

@ Theo: Sodomy includes oral sex. Adam is Satan and the serpent was a part of his anatomy. Gen 3:1 "...the serpent was more subtil..." The basic meaning of this word is having an intellect. This can only refer to mankind. Jesus is called the "second" or "last" Adam. Jesus is part of Satan and is his counterfeit messiah. When Jesus died and went to heaven, his name was changed to "Lucifer" meaning "morning star". This was who Jesus claimed to be. Revelation 22:16. Christians believe Satan's lie in the Garden of Eden, you can sin against God and not keep his commandments, and you won't die. Ezekiel 13:22 "Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life". Satan is the great deceiver and he deceived Eve.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

So let's examine your delusion -
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto Adam's anatomy, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So if I understand your position, God will put enmity between The seed of Adam's (serpent) anatomy and the woman; and between the seed of Adam's (serpent) anatomy and the seed of the woman; then the seed of Adam's (serpent)anatomy is going to bruise the head of the seed of Adam; Then Adam's (serpent) anatomy is going to bruise the Adam's heel. So Adam is a sadist contortionist who is going to bruise his own head with his own anatomy, and then bruise the seed of his own body with the seed of his own anatomy.



So you have all men (replicas of Adam's anatomy) deceiving all women, which brings me to a simple question; if all men deceive all women, how is it you survived to publish the truth?

susanblange Loc: USA

The seed of Adam are the wicked, and the seed of Eve are the righteous. They hate each other. "Enmity" is hostility. The name Adam means "out of the ground". Adam was created as the other animals were, out of the ground. Eve was created from Adam's rib, which is a phallic symbol and was alive. The name "Eve" means "living". Eve is blamed for the sin of mankind and the Messiah is her "one seed". Isaiah 53:6 "...and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Someone needs to have a long talk with your rabbi, if you have one.

susanblange Loc: USA

I am Jewish by faith but not by birth. My rabbi's know all about my ideologies. Sometimes they agree with me and sometimes they don't. I used to go to services and Torah study every week but haven't been in years. Nobody has taught me what I believe, most of my doctrine is original and it all comes from the OT, which I believe is the word of the living God.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

So you are wandering lost in the weeds, no one but yourself to guide you. OK, got in now. Good luck with that.

smurphy Loc: Co

Brilliant and I get your point, but a human sinned, Adam having the same nature, not a female sinned first. And taking personal responsibility and accountability for our sins is what most do.

The notion of Original Sin was contrived by Augustine.

Theo Loc: Within 1000 miles of Tampa, Florida

FIRST ADAM - MALE AND FEMALE
"ADAM" is not just the first male.
[b]"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."[Gen 5:2]

THE FEMALE PART OF ADAM ATE FIRST
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."[Gen 3:6]

THAT IS WHY WOMEN ARE NOT TO TEACH THE MEN IN THE CONGREGATION
[b]"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."[I Tim 2:12-14]

AND HERE IS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "NATURE OF MAN"
[b]"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;"[Rom 2:13-15]

There is no bible teaching of "Original sin" beyond telling us who was first. It is not something inherited.



The Early Church Fathers are often quoted as "Authorities" on the scriptures, but they mostly created the "doctrines of men" that flood the churches today.

For example, take Trinity Doctrine, which runs contrary to scripture and to one of the very earliest Church "Fathers," named "Clement." -

Clements writings expresses his understanding of who was considered to be GOD, CIRCA 96 A.D. Or, to put it another way, what was the doctrine of his day, as relates to a trinity?

PP-59. Let all the Gentiles know that YOU ARE GOD ALONE, [ho theos monos]

AND JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR SON,

and we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.

(Apostolic Fathers P.36-37/82-83)

smurphy Loc: Co

Lol, are you not following the conversation? It was in direct response to the opening thread, about the Pharisee and the publican.