fiatlux

This was a very hot topic at our Bible study last weekend, got many energized and thinking. How to change the world was the predominate thrust of comments. Religious Freedom in America and how to assure that took over the subject. Most took aim at Obama and the Federal Government.

Though i had not yet commented, I felt something was missing from the conversation, especially when it got more heated about the president and the law of this land. People were getting shrill. Then a new member spoke up. He said, "God is love." No one was impressed; this hippie-style Christianity had been heard numerous times before. "All you need is love" blah, blah, blah.

The looks were smug or baleful: this new guy did not stand a chance. But there was quiet. So he added, "As God is love, what is our one and only sin?" This visibly shook the small crowd. "One and only sin"? Foolish! The Ten Commandments easily refuted this neophyte conviction. Yet something gave the crowd pause. "To be un-loving is the only sin." This statement changed my entire POV on faith and living in the world. In each moment the question: Am I being loving?

That question is far, far different than asking am I acting morally correct, obeying the Ten Commandments? Such a question seems pitiful and almost vain. Matthew comes to mind. "You heard it said but..." Love is the answer to every question of obedience. Religious freedom is truly loving our neighbor and enemy alike.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

And that is why I have a very hard time in deciding how to punish the sin and not the sinner.

If you haven't read it already, I have been called a bigot for stating what a particular sin is. For that reason, I have been called every racial, sexist, and bigoted name in the book. And all I did was define a sin in accordance with the bible. Defining a sin is just one small part of bringing the sinner back into the communion with the people.

Yes, Love is the answer. But if man does not know what a sin is, then how can man Love the "sinner?"

I have argued various points on various forums but the worst one is on Sin. People forget that we have a Just God, that through Love forgives sinners. But People also try to hide their sin, in their logic. For this reason there is distrust among the people. Love is the way. But for love to work, one must be fair. It is here that many people forget love. It is love that defines sin, it is love that asks the sinner not to sin.

People have way too much p***e to Love. You either have P***e or you have Love. That is how the action is viewed. But those that set p***e down and use love, are usually the ones following God. But after a while, these people pick up their p***e and jump on one band wagon after another.

Love is the answer. One must search the bible for one's own faith, and seek out the Kingdom of Heaven. By doing this through wisdom, love is realized. Gone are the days of k*****g the sinner. Gone are the days of destroying in order to cleanse sin. Jesus said, "The last shall be first and the first shall be last." Therefore, the sinner will enter the gates of heaven before the Non Sinner.

fiatlux

What is abundantly clear is that you are a good and faithful servant; wish I could claim the same. If I may, accenting sin is consciousness of sin and can only be a self-centered pursuit: MY SALVATION! The Gospels are not moral; they are relational. To be is the point. At least to me.

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Selfish as the statement may be it is a very wise one. Good job! :thumbup:

fiatlux

Thank you.

mcmlx

Wow. I had that same epiphany several months ago. Boy, did I get convicted! I was by myself, and just talking to GOD about my disgust for government, president and his minions, etc.
Matthew 5 and Luke 6 always open (for some reason 😏, ) and tells me to love my enemies; along with the other true teachings of Jesus.
I'm growing and learning and changing. It's a process.
It's all about love, the perfect love of GOD. And emulating the love Jesus showed.
Thank you for bringing this up. I've gotten encouragement from your post.
MCMLX

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

As a Christian and A Catholic(as people say to day, I think it is moronic, because a Catholic is a Christian for they believe in Christ), I have a tendency of arguing first, what is the sin?, then secondly, how do we help the sinner not sin?

I can never get past the first part of what is the sin. Using the bible to define the sin (I also use history, and the synod of Bishops), to clarify what the sin is, so that when I get to the second part we can be clear on how to help the sinner.

Because of extreme anger it seems against Christianity, people have completely lost their minds. No longer do they use reason, but rather their fears and imagination to discredit that sin even exists. So, it is here that the anger begins. Based in fear and imagination, then the defense is using terms like Bigotry and Discrimination, in order to persecute the person defining the sin.

The ridiculousness has went as far as trying to read the mind of the offended, before the offense is made. Part of the blame is placed on the Clinton administration's "Politically Correctness", it is not fat it it obtuse; it is not skinny it is thin, etc.

Now we are at crossroads of rewriting the bible to mean something it was never meant to mean. Pick a sin any of them, and discuss it with people and you will be amazed at how "touchy" they are about it. For most of us that do not partake in the sin, it is just a topic, subject, or principle. But for those who partake in the sin, it seems like it is an addiction.

I am only going to briefly discuss a sin compared to drug addiction and hopefully people will not "feel" in this analogy but see how the sin and addiction are practically the same.

To the pot smoker, Marijuana they can't live without they need it. Therefore, they smoke it any chance they got. Not all pot smokers, do this, I am just talking about the extreme addicts.

On the other hand we have the current events of the homosexual argument(hopefully no one argues this point here. I am using it as an example to show the addiction of sin is the same as the addiction to pot or alcohol, not to start a theological debate.)For over 3000 years this action has been deemed a sin.

Now, if you were to take alcohol away from the alcoholic, or pot away from the Marijuana user, you will have statements like, "Oh you are just drug phobia, or you never did pot how do you know, or smoking pot will not hurt you." and this is the same with alcohol.

Yet, when the same analogy is applied to current events we see the same slurs. "Your a bigot", or "you are h********c", "homosexuality hurts no one."

These statements from both addicts tend to defend their addiction. And through observation it festers into a fight. By defining the sin, what I have done is establish why Christians in my case cannot support certain actions that condone the sin. But as a human being with the love of God in my heart, there must be a way of solving the problem, without allowing the sin to continue, but at the same time keeping the sinner happy. This is a tall task. And only through the love of Jesus Christ can this be accomplished.

But first the facts must be established to keep us within the guidelines of God first, then we can establish the proper and appropriate responsible actions that Jesus compels us to do in the name of Love. This is very hard to do, when people will not use simple etiquette, and reason, even when the evidence is presented.

Al Pacino, at the end of the "Devil's advocate" stated a scary line, "Ah Vanity, my favorite Sin"

It is this Vanity that sinners use as an excuse to empower them to sin. God granted us free will, I don't remember the actor who stated this but he stated in a movie, I cannot recall, but his statement was, "Free will, its a b***h", it may have been Al but I don't remember.

I read a comment recently, that not too long ago, our parents fought the Government, to get the Government out of the bedroom. This prompted Daddy Bush, when he was confronted with the argument to invoke the thinking, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

It worked and was brilliant, for with this policy, if people didn't know, they will not care, and if they don't care, its not an argument. The Liberals and Bill Clinton did not like that. So Bill Clinton stopped the practice, and the battle began. But in those days we Christians kept quiet. Then Bush Jr. became president, and re invoked with some changes, the Don't ask, Don't tell policy once again. And even though we hit rough times during his administration, this issue died down to inactive status, until Obama exclaimed to the world, to accept them.

Look at what has happened. This country is on the verge of war, because a gay person wanted to by a cake from a Christian baker. The Christian baker refused to sell. The country went to war. Where's the love.

Here on my forum, fifty pages of h**e, were posted. Where's the reason? For I stated the sin, to establish the sin. But I was constantly attacked with racial names such as a bigot. I never once called him a heretic. But even I too got caught up into the moment, and at one point asked the administration to shut down the Topic, I created, because of the h**e being posed at me, in the name of a false love.

Wouldn't it be funny if I said to you, "The sun rises in the west and sets in the east". Most people would laugh right? Well, what if I backed that up, by saying that for 3000 years humans got the directions wrong, east is west and west is east. Wouldn't that just confuse the facts? However, this is what was done, when the scriptures were written verbatim, and the sin was denied. He was unwilling to compromise on the definition of the sin, and he called it my h**e.

When I debate, I look at the subject not as any person, I look at it as a principle and I argue principle. Where is h**e in arguing a non human? But nevertheless I was labeled, and to drive the point home, the old fashioned labels that were used in the 1960s by the KKK, but directed to religion instead of race, were used against me. This I called religious persecution.

Where in this whole analogy is there love? And that is the problem. Look how love c*********d with the pot smoker....Look how love c*********d with the alcoholic, but now love will not compromise with the sin. (Love does not condone sin, but love can be used to help the sinner, let me be clear on that.)

A priest once told me, "Pretend, you are the priest. With all the knowledge of the Bible as taught by the seminary, in your head, and you are in the confessional. Bound by mortal sin not to divulge any information in the confessional, and a sinner truly sorry of his sin comes to you and confesses his sin. Say the sin was of a controversial topic, causing the country to be up in arms. What advice would you give the sinner? What sermon for "love" of the sinner would you give to the community?"

"That is a really tough question father, I do not know", I told the priest.

"My son, " he said, "that is what it is for me too. But only in the faith and love in Jesus Christ can we, together as Christians, find the answer"

Goodnight and God Bless!

mcmlx

You hit the nail on the head. Spot on.
Luke 6:37,38 states Jesus' words. "Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Judge not, and you shall not be judged".
I'm learning and growing in the love of the man who was persecuted, tortured, and k**led for me.
Just out of curiosity, do you think that the greatest sin we commit is not living in and by HIS love?
It seems so simple, but it is difficult. Narrow is the gate....
MCMLX

mcmlx

Our GOD is a consuming fire.
MCMLX

Alicia Loc: NYC

******************
My comment will refer to your first and third lines. -- There is no way to punish the sin. Why do you use the word "punish"?

I believe the goal is to love everyone - including sinners. I very often have to make a distinction between "love" and "like." Because all of us are related and are one, we must love all. That does not mean we must like everyone.

If you do not like someone or something you need not associate with or bring that person/thing into your life. Just accept that they are also of the family of man, love them, and leave them alone. It is not your purpose to judge if another has committed a sin unless you can understand what is in their mind and heart. Acceptance is the true teaching.

Murder is a sin, yet countries (tribes, etc.) send people into war TO COMMIT MURDER ! No wonder that many of our veterans suffer from PTSD.

mcmlx

That's right, Alicia. Judge not, lest ye shall be judged.
Murder is a sin. The fact is, that in my life, for right now anyway, I need to work for a corporation which allows the government to take my money to support wars, to be able to pay my bills. I'm not proud of this fact.
Had I been MCML instead of MCMLX, I may have been a protester of the Vietnam war.
So, how may I protest against all the wars that our corrupt government is waging? How may I support myself if I stop paying illegal taxes to a government which uses my money to fund the things I don't want?
I do know that my taxes pay for "law enforcers" to come into my home at gunpoint and steal my hard earned property if I don't pay them for "protecting" me from people who want to come into my home and steal my property.
Then, the "law" will put me in a cage.
I can make a stand for SELF-government.
I can make a stand against the government taking my money and keeping 90% of it and maybe giving 10% to the "needy", although I am perfectly capable of giving to the people around me who need help, not lazy,freeloaders.
I know, quite long-winded.
MCMLX

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

I’ve read the posts in this thread and only have one comment. I’ve read that man’s condition is Bush’s fault, Clinton’s fault, government’s fault etc. and that the solution is for man to love his fellow man. All well and good but I’ve got news for you…the only persons to blame for man’s condition is the fallen nature of you and me and the only solution for it is to be saved by the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. Once that happens, although you may still be a sinner (we ALL are), you’re changed and changing more each day to become more like Jesus. How is one saved by the cleansing blood of Jesus? Five simple steps…

1. Admit you are a sinner – Romans 3:23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
2. Understand that as a sinner, you will die – Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
3. Believe that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead to save you from sin and death – Romans 10:9-11; 13 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”… 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
4. Receive, in faith through Jesus, his free gift of salvation – Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
5. Repent by turning from your old life of sin to a new life in Jesus.

Searching Loc: Rural Southwest VA

:thumbup: For God so loved the world.....

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

What a really cool wise statement, I am in total agreement..... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ

Let me clarify, punish the sin, save the sinner. Without upsetting the order of free will.