moldyoldy

http://news.yahoo.com/man-assaulted-by-vigilante-at-florida-walmart-230643501.html

What is your opinion?


A simple errand turned violent for Clarence Daniels this week when he went to Walmart for some coffee creamer and wound up in a chokehold.

Upon arriving at the Walmart in Florida’s Hillsborough County on Tuesday, the 62-year-old Daniels, who is black, grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat. Watching this from inside the store was Michael Foster, a 43-year-old white man described by the Tampa Bay Times as “a well-intentioned vigilante.” As soon as Daniels walked into the store, Foster tackled him, shouting, “He’s got a gun!” Ignoring Daniels’ repeated yells of, “I have a permit!” Foster proceeded to put him into a chokehold. When sheriff’s deputies arrived on the scene, they confirmed that Daniels was indeed a concealed carry permit holder and Foster was arrested and charged with battery.

Fortunately, no one was injured in the scuffle, which might explain why the incident was not widely covered and why the local coverage chalked it up to an honest misunderstanding. And maybe it was an honest misunderstanding. But Foster’s instinct to take matters into his own hands and attack a man he thought might pose a threat to his fellow Walmart shoppers pulls into focus the state of vigilantism in the U.S., and Florida in particular.

As long as the U.S. has existed, so too have vigilantes: civilians who, with no legal authority, take it upon themselves to enforce laws and punish wrongdoers, typically operating under the assumption that government or police cannot be trusted to do so. Vigilantism, by definition, is illegal. But throughout history, state and federal laws have blurred the lines between what is considered illegal vigilante behavior and what qualifies as justifiable self-defense. Perhaps nowhere else has that line become more blurred in recent years than in Florida, where Tuesday’s Walmart tackle took place.

A decade before the country broke into Civil War, the budding abolition movement prompted Congress to pass a collection of bills known as the Compromise of 1850. One of those bills was the Fugitive S***e Act, which, among its provisions, included the requirement that citizens help in catching fugitive s***es. The spread of abolition — and later desegregation—was met with the creation of groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the White Citizens Council, that sought to restore “order” and intimidate civil rights-seeking African-Americans as well as their allies — often through violence.

Though much more loosely organized and existing further out along the societal fringe, r****m is still at the heart of today’s larger vigilante groups. Only instead of free b****s and civil rights advocates, modern-day groups like the Minutemen m*****a target immigrants, sometimes even acting as volunteer Border Patrol agents in an unauthorized effort to crack down on i*****l i*********n.

Of course, not all vigilantes are motivated by race; nor are most of them affiliated with any sort of group. Benjamin John Francis Fodor, better known by his superhero name, “Phoenix Jones,” claimed to have been interested in breaking up brawls when he took to the streets of Seattle armed with a hooded mask, pepper spray and a stun gun before he was arrested in 2011 on four counts of suspected misdemeanor assault.

In attempting to enforce the law, vigilantes like Fodor often end up breaking the law themselves. This recent Walmart case is no exception. Because Florida is a “concealed carry” state, Foster had no legitimate reason to assume that Daniels was breaking the law before asking him to see his concealed carry permit.

Florida is also, however, a Stand Your Ground state, a wide-ranging self-defense statute best known as the basis for the acquittal of George Zimmerman of the 2012 shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin. In the wake of the controversial Zimmerman verdict, Florida lawmakers met last year to clarify that Stand Your Ground does not permit vigilantism. Still, the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Department’s response to Tuesday’s Walmart incident suggests vigilantes aren’t necessarily discouraged as much as they are urged to patrol responsibly.

“Unfortunately, [Foster] tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,” sheriff’s spokesman Larry McKinnon said. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed weapons permit holders.”

“You better make sure there’s a good reason,” McKinnon said of taking matters into one’s own hands. “Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to carry a gun.”




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skott Loc: Bama

The article is interesting. The only problem I had was the putting of the KKK in the category of vigilantes. They were going against the law, which puts them in the category of TERRORISTS.

Trooper745 Loc: Carolina

My first thought is a hearty, "Thanks, and congratulations for your controlled and intelligent handling of a bad situation", to Mr. Daniels.

dslagowski

Posted earlier.

W8_4_It

That was a tribute to the restraint shown by permit holders.

moldyoldy

i had to look up a definition, because your point seemed valid, but there are always many meanings to words that change over time.
noun
1.
a member of a vigilance committee.

2.
any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
adjective
3.
done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures:
"vigilante justice."

Dave Loc: Upstate New York

This seems a case of one individual doing one particularly stupid thing - maybe with good intentions and maybe not - but stupid. I'm not sure, however, I'd call it vigilante. I see that term as being associated with more than one person doing one act.

There are cases where an individual reacting to real threats act and save lives. Again, I wouldn't call such acts as vigilante either. As in the case of this stupid act by one individual, acts of bravery reacting to on the spot threats is not exactly premeditated - as I would suspect true vigilante acts are.

By the way, this was widely reported, I saw it in several places -

no propaganda please Loc: moon orbiting the third rock from the sun

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

moldyoldy

I think he was tackled and put in a choke hold before he could react. Being 62, can make us a little less combative.

ghostgotcha Loc: The Florida swamps

moldyoldy

It is obvious that intelligent conversation is not possible with you.

Sicilianthing

[quote=moldyoldy]http://news.yahoo.com/man-assaulted-by-vigilante-at-florida-walmart-230643501.html

What is your opinion?


A simple errand turned violent for Clarence Daniels this week when he went to Walmart for some coffee creamer and wound up in a chokehold.

Upon arriving at the Walmart in Florida’s Hillsborough County on Tuesday, the 62-year-old Daniels, who is black, grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat. Watching this from inside the store was Michael Foster, a 43-year-old white man described by the Tampa Bay Times as “a well-intentioned vigilante.” As soon as Daniels walked into the store, Foster tackled him, shouting, “He’s got a gun!” Ignoring Daniels’ repeated yells of, “I have a permit!” Foster proceeded to put him into a chokehold. When sheriff’s deputies arrived on the scene, they confirmed that Daniels was indeed a concealed carry permit holder and Foster was arrested and charged with battery.

Fortunately, no one was injured in the scuffle, which might explain why the incident was not widely covered and why the local coverage chalked it up to an honest misunderstanding. And maybe it was an honest misunderstanding. But Foster’s instinct to take matters into his own hands and attack a man he thought might pose a threat to his fellow Walmart shoppers pulls into focus the state of vigilantism in the U.S., and Florida in particular.

As long as the U.S. has existed, so too have vigilantes: civilians who, with no legal authority, take it upon themselves to enforce laws and punish wrongdoers, typically operating under the assumption that government or police cannot be trusted to do so. Vigilantism, by definition, is illegal. But throughout history, state and federal laws have blurred the lines between what is considered illegal vigilante behavior and what qualifies as justifiable self-defense. Perhaps nowhere else has that line become more blurred in recent years than in Florida, where Tuesday’s Walmart tackle took place.

A decade before the country broke into Civil War, the budding abolition movement prompted Congress to pass a collection of bills known as the Compromise of 1850. One of those bills was the Fugitive S***e Act, which, among its provisions, included the requirement that citizens help in catching fugitive s***es. The spread of abolition — and later desegregation—was met with the creation of groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the White Citizens Council, that sought to restore “order” and intimidate civil rights-seeking African-Americans as well as their allies — often through violence.

Though much more loosely organized and existing further out along the societal fringe, r****m is still at the heart of today’s larger vigilante groups. Only instead of free b****s and civil rights advocates, modern-day groups like the Minutemen m*****a target immigrants, sometimes even acting as volunteer Border Patrol agents in an unauthorized effort to crack down on i*****l i*********n.

Of course, not all vigilantes are motivated by race; nor are most of them affiliated with any sort of group. Benjamin John Francis Fodor, better known by his superhero name, “Phoenix Jones,” claimed to have been interested in breaking up brawls when he took to the streets of Seattle armed with a hooded mask, pepper spray and a stun gun before he was arrested in 2011 on four counts of suspected misdemeanor assault.

In attempting to enforce the law, vigilantes like Fodor often end up breaking the law themselves. This recent Walmart case is no exception. Because Florida is a “concealed carry” state, Foster had no legitimate reason to assume that Daniels was breaking the law before asking him to see his concealed carry permit.

Florida is also, however, a Stand Your Ground state, a wide-ranging self-defense statute best known as the basis for the acquittal of George Zimmerman of the 2012 shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin. In the wake of the controversial Zimmerman verdict, Florida lawmakers met last year to clarify that Stand Your Ground does not permit vigilantism. Still, the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Department’s response to Tuesday’s Walmart incident suggests vigilantes aren’t necessarily discouraged as much as they are urged to patrol responsibly.

“Unfortunately, [Foster] tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,” sheriff’s spokesman Larry McKinnon said. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed weapons permit holders.”

“You better make sure there’s a good reason,” McKinnon said of taking matters into one’s own hands. “Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to carry a gun.”

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't you just love it...

It's like the Wild Wild West all over again.... to re settle the origins of Freedoms, Open Carry, Concealed Carry...

2nd amendment

Not INfringe etc....


People need to mind their own Effen Business ! Period !

MrEd Loc: Georgia

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“Unfortunately, [Foster] tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,” sheriff’s spokesman Larry McKinnon said. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed weapons permit holders.”

I h**e to say this, because I can't really read the guys mind, but I don't think he would have touched this man if he had been white. I think this was all because he was black and had a gun.

I also think that Mr. Daniels was a little wrong for letting people see him put the gun in his holster. I think he should have had it in there or parked in a section where he is not so easy to see while he put his gun on.

I'm not saying Mr. Foster was right in any way for what he did, but Mr. Daniels has to be careful not to be seen too and for a very good reason. If someone were going to rob that store and sees him put that gun on, then he just became a target and they would take him out as well as anyone else that was a threat to them.

moldyoldy

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I wonder too, if a senior citizen would normally be seen as a robber. Maybe a disgruntled worker seeking revenge at walmart, would be more likely. There was a young Black guy k**led by the cops before Christmas, at a walmart in an open carry state. He had picked up ba BB gun in the store and was walking aroud with it. So if the cops can be felony stupid, what can we expect from the public?

jonhatfield Loc: Green Bay, WI

While the history of the KKK includes terrorist actions an is somewhat comparable to jihadi terrorism, the vigilante aspect is the key to understanding the KKK and the current phenomenon of terrorism in the Muslim world.

I recently became aware of a KKK organization in the 1920's and 30's in a community in northwestern Illinois where there were no b****s and the purpose was enforcement of community moral standards not covered by law...for example, one instance of forcing one person out of the community for alleged molestation of daughter. No room for all the details of this "community organization" except that they saw themselves as ordinary community club like Masons or Odd Fellows, etc.--just that their purpose was vigilante action enforcing community standards and they thought they were doing good. The terrorists also think they are doing good. The extremists on OPP also believe they are doing good. Fanaticism and vigilantism are dangerous in politics and religion, but it is difficult to get practitioners to see the wrong in their "goodness."