PeterS

When Jefferson wrote "These t***hs are self-evident" was this in a religious context or the same context as 1+1=2? What did Jefferson mean when he wrote those words?

JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida

He described what t***hs were self evident in his following sentences. Many would say that he couldn’t believe all men were created equal because Jefferson was a s***e owner. I’ve heard scholars suggest he meant equal in the eyes of God.
Good thought provoking question. One thing I believe self evident, the clowns running the show now couldn’t carry the Founders “water.”

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript

PeterS

Not quite. The phrase wasn't written by Jefferson but by Franklin, as he explained, ours was to be a country governed by self-determination whose representatives were elected by men, and not by a King whose providence was appointed by God.

PBS is doing a Ken Burns series on Franklin. Enlightening, you cons should watch it...

JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida

So should you C****e’s

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

I know what you're trying to do, Peter, work your way around the reference to a Creator.
You simply do not want God in man's arena, that wouldn't be humanist.

The Declaration is written in plain English, It means there is no question that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

The Declaration of Independence is perhaps the most masterfully written state paper of Western civilization. As Moses Coit Tyler noted almost a century ago, no assessment of it can be complete without taking into account its extraordinary merits as a work of political prose style. Although many scholars have recognized those merits, there are surprisingly few sustained studies of the stylistic artistry of the Declaration. This essay seeks to illuminate that artistry by probing the discourse microscopically--at the level of the sentence, phrase, word, and syllable. By approaching the Declaration in this way, we can shed light both on its literary qualities and on its rhetorical power as a work designed to convince a "candid world" that the American colonies were justified in seeking to establish themselves as an independent nation.

The text of the Declaration can be divided into five sections--the introduction, the preamble, the indictment of George III, the denunciation of the British people, and the conclusion.

Like the introduction, the next section of the Declaration--usually referred to as the preamble--is universal in tone and scope. It contains no explicit reference to the British- American conflict, but outlines a general philosophy of government that makes revolution justifiable, even meritorious:

We hold these t***hs to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and t***sient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Like the rest of the Declaration, the preamble is "brief, free of verbiage, a model of clear, concise, simple statement.

Because of their concern with the philosophy of the Declaration, many modern scholars have dealt with the opening sentence of the preamble out of context, as if Jefferson and the Continental Congress intended it to stand alone. Seen in context, however, it is part of a series of five propositions that build upon one another through the first three sentences of the preamble to establish the right of revolution against tyrannical authority:

Proposition 1: All men are created equal.

Proposition 2: They [all men, from proposition 1] are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights

Proposition 3: Among these [man's unalienable rights, from proposition 2] are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

Proposition 4: To secure these rights [man's unalienable rights, from propositions 2 and 3] governments are instituted among men

Proposition 5: Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [securing man's unalienable rights, from propositions 2-4], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it.

When we look at all five propositions, we see they are meant to be read together and have been meticulously written to achieve a specific rhetorical purpose. The first three lead into the fourth, which in turn leads into the fifth. And it is the fifth, proclaiming the right of revolution when a government becomes destructive of the people's unalienable rights, that is most crucial in the overall argument of the Declaration. The first four propositions are merely preliminary steps designed to give philosophical grounding to the fifth.

PeterS

I am watching it, you F*****t!

DAV

T***h speaks for itself.

PeterS

Not at all, it was Franklin who added Creator to Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration which started like this: We hold these t***hs to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men...In fact, nowhere in the first draft did Jefferson, the deist that he was, mention God other than 'nature's god'.

But even with adding the word "Creator" Franklin still meant for this to be a document about the right to self-determination of man the right to which came from our Creator...who or wh**ever that might be. We were to have no more Kings whose power it was claimed was derived from their gods but instead, power granted to them by the people they governed which was the only power that mattered.

And Blade you can throw in God or Creator all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the founders intended ours to be a nation where it was the people determined who governed them not the one or many gods they might believe in.