proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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This is total nuclear blackmail. No rational human being would risk his entire nation by initiating nuclear war, hence MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction is validated. Have faith in that principle and keep on keeping on.

We cannot give in to such blackmail.

proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

Putin doesn't give a s**t about anyone else but himself... So I won't be surprised if he actually goes through with his threat..

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

From the movie Crimson Tide with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington:

The True Enemy

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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How does one fight war itself except by giving in to the real enemy who is quite prepared to run us over, subjugate, maim and k**l? Clever phrase, but its meaning is not useful in preserving our republic against a determined foe. We were negotiating with Japan on or around December 7th, 1941... Chamberlin signed a great deal with Hitler: Peace in our time,,, Virtually every agreement we have had with Russia has been voided by them, or violated...
But I have faith in MAD, since I believe Putin is not a crazy madman. He loves Russia.
Peace through strength is the first principle, it is necessary but it isn't sufficient. We need the will to fight if needed to defend ourselves. We need the faith in MAD to avoid nuclear war. We need to disarm or neutralize those who have nuclear weapons and threaten their use, or threaten their sale to rogues.

MAD works for us in the world because other nations believe they know that we will use nukes since we have done so before to save our troop's lives and will do it again if we are faced with a serious and intractable threat or conflict. And we have the capability...

F.D.R.

It seems to me that Putin is paranoid and he bases his paranoia on the fact that he has designs on recreating the former Soviet empire so he see's NATO and the U.S's efforts to prevent that as an act of aggression against Russia.
I base that on my view that no one in the West would seriously consider the thought of invading or attacking Russia. While I would like to believe that Putin knows that starting a nuclear war would be suicide he may not be thinking rationally these days. Another reason for the threat is that he may feel that NATO and the U.S. will not risk all out war if he simply uses a tactical nuke on Ukraine, they'll simply yell and holler and impose more sanctions.

I see this as an opportunity to end this war that never should have begun. First the U.S. can very well remove any of it's nuclear weapons from Europe as we don't need them there as our ICBM's can reach any target within minutes. I would suggest we can even remove our forces from Europe except for training units. We've been Europe's piggy bank for long enough. In exchange all Russian forces must withdraw from all of Ukraine and the UN would supervise an e******n for the Ukrainian people to decide whether or not to join the Russian federation or not and both parties must abide by the outcome of the e******n. Also, should Ukraine remain independent, Russia will provide the funds and equipment to rebuild the infrastructure as well as funds for displaced Ukrainians to return home. Ukraine will not become a member of NATO and the UN will provide troops at border crossings both Russian and Ukraine military units will be required to remain at least 10 miles from the border to avoid incidents. Also, Putin would be removed from the war crimes list allowing him to freely travel.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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On your condition that Putin "may not be thinking rationally" we should do all those things? When he demands that the Baltic States return to Russian control, Poland, and Eastern Germany, etc, will you give them away to him? Where does your appeasement stop, Mr. Chamberlin?

You give Russia the chance to recover and go at it again!

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

As commander H****r in the movie implied, in a nuclear war today, there are no winners.

Yes, faith in MAD is reasonable as long as none of the adversaries are mad.
Lots of MAD SOBs in positions of power on this planet now.

woodguru

I'm in agreement there,

F.D.R.

NO ! Try reading my post again, you completely misunderstood my points.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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Read my post again. Your points lead to a Russia free from the presence of US forces in Europe, and wild assumptions as to who will pay for the damage in the Ukraine: Russia! How is that even remotely possible?

I do agree that the Eu Nations must step up to their own defense, but that will take time going beyond the current conflict. Meanwhile, we are their strength.

Putin may well be paranoid, but he simply cannot allow Russia to be devastated, now can he? His dream of a new SU reflects his love of country.

Given a breather from war, and a rapid rebuilding of ties to the west, Russia could rebound in a few years, and start thinking anew of aggressions. Anyone that replaces Putin will have just about the same ideas, all spawned in the KGB.

SeaLass Loc: Western Soviet Socialist Republics

Putin may not care about the average Russian, but how plush a life would even he have, assuming he survived, after an all out nuclear exchange, it would be a VERY VERY different world. One could argue that he has a very large, secure and well stocked secrete bunker someplace, but even that would have only limited resources and would be little more than a gold plated prison cell. I think the biggest danger is if he starts to believe he can use nuclear weapons and that nobody will respond in kind. Given the current US administration, that would not be outside of the realm of possibility.

SeaLass Loc: Western Soviet Socialist Republics

"MAD works for us in the world because other nations believe they know that we will use nukes since we have done so before to save our troop's lives and will do it again if we are faced with a serious and intractable threat or conflict. And we have the capability..."


I can't recall the details, but in a book about why Truman decided to use nuclear weapons this exact point was a major consideration.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

Where are the WSSRs?

SeaLass Loc: Western Soviet Socialist Republics

????