Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.

Let me begin by saying I respect the position of those who hold the principle that life begins at conception and in no way am I trying to disparage or argue against that principle. In fact, I respect you for holding to your principles.

Dr Oz today changed his position on a******n being murder to allow a few exceptions for medical, rape or incest. I myself am having a hard time reconciling a few seeming contradictions to that position. A few questions. Perhaps some here can enlighten me on how to do so. I really do want to understand the position.

1) How does one believe that life begins at conception and a******n is murder justify exceptions such as medical, rape or incest?
2) If one believes that a******n is murder how does one reconcile not charging the woman with homicide? Or, if a miscarriage is caused by gross negligence, not charging the woman with negligent homicide?
3) And a third slightly different question. If you do believe in medical exceptions, does that include mental illness? Wouldn't a mental illness exception, a very subjective diagnosis, open a******n up to be pretty much legal until birth?

AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State

Personal beliefs will be weighed against majority constituent beliefs.

Like it or not there is going to have to be some compromise on this issue. As the progressives enjoy touting how great Canada and Europe are, they might want to research those entities standards for a******n.

Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.

Doesn't really answer my question. Perhaps I shouldn't have injected Oz into the conversation. I understand politicians adjust to what they think will be most advantageous for themselves. I am more interested on how normal people here reconcile the contradictions.

keepuphope Loc: Idaho

The only thing that is a threat to a woman's life is a tubal pregnancy. Even with Preclampsia they induce for both mom and child. Rape is tragic but to k**l an innocent for the vile act of a man is wrong also as the child is also a part of the mother. All the rest that they say is to save the mother is a lie. And I challenge anyone to prove it medically. A while back a man got a woman pregnant who was in a coma in a nursing home. She delivered naturally and her parents are now raising her child. That is a beautiful thing so think about that as you people say it's to save the mother because it's not. And I am an R.N. so I'm not as ignorant as most of the posters on this site.

One Patriot

I can not answer your 3 questions because, I can not answer for other people. But, speaking only for myself, a******n is murder! The only exception I could even think of would be “if the mother will die carrying and/or giving birth.”
Let me ask you a question, I’ve asked this question a few times and nobody has answered it. If a******n is not murder then why does a person get charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter if said person causes a woman to miscarriage? I know that different states have different laws on their books, but, said person is still charged.

Sonny Magoo Loc: Where pot pie is boiled in a kettle

If a pregnant woman is k**led in an automobile accident by a drink driver in my state, that usually results in 2 counts of manslaughter.
Gee whizzz...how come?

Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.

I can't answer your question either. There is obvious hypocrisy on that position as well.

Unfortunately, as of yet no one has answered my questions? How does one support a******n with exceptions if a******n is murder?

American Vet

American Vet

1) How does one believe that life begins at conception and a******n is murder justify exceptions such as medical, rape or incest?

Medical exceptions: If the life of the mother is truly in danger, the a******n is a justified - it is a type of 'self defense'. There have been cases where a mother declined medical intervention to save the life of her baby knowing that she might die. Probably the most common medical event is the ectopic pregnancy: The unborn child will not survive and the mother will die is there is no intervention.

Rape/incest: The Catholic Church believes these are still innocent children. There are cases where a woman was raped/incest occurred and decided to keep the child.

According to the Elliot Institute survey of 192 women who conceived in rape, 70% of these women chose life and all of them were happy they did. 43% of them felt forced to abort and of that 43%, 78% of them regretted their decision.
https://studentsforlife.org/2021/10/21/what-about-a******n-in-cases-of-rape/

The actual number of a******ns due to rape is actually miniscule. Six states have surveyed 2.44 million women over the time period 1996-2020 who had a******ns and found that only 0.39% chose a******n because of rape or incest.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=a******n+in+rape+cases&t=h_&ia=web

"The welfare of a mother and her child are never at odds, even in sexual assault cases," says Dr. David Reardon, a full-time researcher into the impact of a******n on women, in a valuable article, " Rape, Incest and A******n: Searching Beyond the Myths ." "Both the mother and child are helped by preserving life, not by perpetuating violence."
https://www.boundless.org/adulthood/a******n-and-rape/

So I believe the answer to your question is it is a 'moral' decision of the woman.


2) If one believes that a******n is murder how does one reconcile not charging the woman with homicide? Or, if a miscarriage is caused by gross negligence, not charging the woman with negligent homicide?

There are people who believe the woman should be charged. In the past - those type of laws did exist.


3) And a third slightly different question. If you do believe in medical exceptions, does that include mental illness? Wouldn't a mental illness exception, a very subjective diagnosis, open a******n up to be pretty much legal until birth?

I disagree with your contention that mental illness is very subjective. That being said, I would say there is no easy answer to that question. Falls under the heading of the question 'how many angels can dance in the head of a pin'.


The thing that you bring up are far and away rare events (see above - 0.39%). The vast majority of a******ns are done for convenience.

keepuphope Loc: Idaho

I gave you the only litgitamus answer according to science, and that is a tubal pregnancy. That is literally the one pregnancy that will k**l a mother. All the others are murder as there is no credible threat to the mother's life. Many good points also about getting charged with murder if a mother is k**led with a baby in utero.

Ronald Hatt Loc: Lansing, Mich

A******N...."MOSTLY"...Is the result of "personal irresponsibility"!

"Rape"...is a very good exception to that statement! [ Some women, are unable to fight off a sex pervert, family...{ incest} or not!

fact: Aborted Human beings, are predominantly "black" babies...[ B*M?} , ,

I think we can all agree that rape, incest, mental illness, *life of the mother, et al....can be a serious consideration re: A******n!

Personal responsibility...."KEY"...here!

Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.

[quote=Ronald Hatt]A******N...."MOSTLY"...Is the result of "personal irresponsibility"!

"Rape"...is a very good exception to that statement! [ Some women, are unable to fight off a sex pervert, family...{ incest} or not!

fact: Aborted Human beings, are predominantly "black" babies...[ B*M?} , ,

I think we can all agree that rape, incest, mental illness, *life of the mother, et al....can be a serious consideration re: A******n!

Personal responsibility...."KEY"...here![/quote]

The fact that a disproportionate number of a******ns are done by black women may speak more to eugenics than a******n itself.

As Keepuphope stated, and she claims to be a RN so I trust her information more than most, there is only one instance where the life of the mother is actually in danger.

You have come closest to answering some of my questions. I realize that the majority of a******ns are due to irresponsible or accidental behavior. It is the exceptions that I am interested in. The exceptions need to be considered to balance the equation.

Do you believe that life begins at conception and a******n is murder? It seems that you are saying it is not a matter of when life begins at all, but rather, of responsible or irresponsible behavior that led to the a******n. That murder of an innocent is okay as long as the woman is not responsible for the circumstances that led up to that murder of an innocent? Is that correct? Doesn't the idea that murder of an innocent is okay under some circumstances seems to go against the idea that a******n is actually murder?

I still have questions with the idea that mental illness justifies an a******n. Mental illness can stretch from specific mental illnesses to broad diagnoses of something like depression or anxiety. Using mental illness as an acceptable excuse without further definition can lead to the same situation as medical marijuana. Where, with a doctor excuse, a******n is basically legal up until birth.