keepuphope Loc: Idaho

It's a nasty habit we all have. What is rare is being able to look inside yourself and see our own character flaws. That's a hard thing to do. But it's there we learn compassion as we realize circumstances mold people differently,and hopefully learn patience for others flaws also.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Christianity is Divinely Unique; Not to be Confused with Conventional Human Reasoning.

IF that is what you are saying in your own inimitable manner, I agree.

Extrapolating t***h from the Bible is not philosophy. The oxymoron: "Christian philosophy" encapsulates the incompatibility of these terms. Believers have no need to attempt to merge the world of human philosophy with Christianity.

Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness." And again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile"
(1st Corinthians 3:18-20).

This in no way implies that analytical thinking is bad. Meditation, for instance, on the Word of God is a necessary requirement for healthy growth in a Christian's life (Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:2; Malachi 3:16; Philippians 4:8). Our thoughts have to debark from the proper starting post. If we begin with the foundation of God's t***h and continually search the Bible to verify that our thoughts and ideas remain grounded, it is difficult to wander far astray.

Solomon's wisdom excelled that of all people (I Kings 4:30), and he was famous throughout the surrounding nations for his wisdom (verses 31-34). He was not a philosopher. He did not pursue wisdom by intellectual means, inquiring into the nature of things based on man's "logical" reasoning rather than on observing or experimenting? Look again at verse 33: "He spoke of trees, . . . of animals, of birds, of creeping things, and of fish." Solomon observed, experimented, and learned from the creation, and God gave him understanding (I Kings 3:9, 12), making him wise. Solomon says his words were spoken in righteousness and are apprehended by those with spiritual understanding. (Proverbs 8:8-9). "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10). He started from the proper foundation.

In Colossians 2 Paul writes: "See to it that no one will deceive you through philosophy and empty rhetoric, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ, in whom are deposited all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Paul warned of giving heed to "opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge" (1 Timothy 6:20) or "so-called knowledge." Much of secular philosophy falls into that category.

The wisdom of the world in their efforts to give t***h and happiness to the human soul, was foolishness with God, just as the wisdom of God - Christ crucified - was foolishness with the philosophers, in relation to the same subject; yet it was divine Philosophy. An adopted means, and the only adequate means, to accomplish the necessary end.

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 "And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."

federally indicted mattoid

Agree 👍

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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"If we begin with the foundation of God's t***h and continually search the Bible to verify that our thoughts and ideas remain grounded, it is difficult to wander far astray."

To me, Zemirah, this is the fountain of Christian philosophy, which I do not see as an oxymoron. Perhaps it is simply a play on words in how one defines and applies philosophy as a term. The Bible in rich in wisdom and philosophy as I understand the term. It is exactly where I begin my worship and faith. Then I extend its tenets into my world, along with what one can find to be reasoned and appropriate there. But I will recheck what I believe philosophy means.

From: The Collector

“What is philosophy? It’s a tricky question. Derived from the Greek word philosophia, meaning “love of wisdom,” philosophy asks deep questions about knowledge and the meaning of life. We might even call it “thinking about thinking,” or the study of ideas. Philosophy is more about opening up questions rather than seeking direct or obvious answers. It asks fundamental questions about the world we live in, and our place within it. Philosophy is a vast area of study that has spanned millennia, with strands stretching across many elements of life. Usually, philosophy is divided into four key areas: ethics, logic, metaphysics and epistemology.” I add religion here.

And, this is where, for me, God and the Bible are irreplaceable resources. They give me the correct Christian God's view of all five of these areas of philosophy.

Philosophy of religion is the philosophical study of the meaning and nature of religion. It includes the analyses of religious concepts, beliefs, terms, arguments, and practices of religious adherents. The scope of much of the work done in philosophy of religion has been limited to the various theistic religions.

Colossians 2:8 NIV
https://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/2-8.html
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

To me, the Bible is the fount of all wisdom, manning... It is the Source, our Creator's message to mankind.

Without it, we cannot know God the Father, or His Son, Jesus Christ, or the gospel of His life, crucifixion, resurrection, and their purpose, or the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It is a revelation from the author and finisher of our faith - the Alpha and the Omega - revealing the end from the beginning.

Metaphysics, at its core is the study of the nature of reality, of what exists in the world, what it is like, and how it is ordered. In metaphysics, philosophers wrestle with the very questions the Bible has answered:

Is there a God?
What is t***h?
What is a person? What makes a person the same through time?
Is the world strictly composed of matter?
Do people have minds? If so, how is the mind related to the body?
Do people have free wills?
What is it for one event to cause another?

Epistemology, the study of knowledge - primarily concerned with what we can know about the world and how we can know it. The typical questions of concern in epistemology have also been answered in the Scriptures:

What is knowledge?
Do we know anything at all?
How do we know what we know?
Can we be justified in claiming to know certain things?

Ethics concerns what we ought to do and what it would be best to do. In struggling with this issue, questions about what is good and right arise. So..., the ethicist also attempts to answer questions the Bible answers:

What is good? What makes actions or people good?
What is right? What makes actions right?
Is morality objective or subjective?
How should I treat others?

History of Philosophy

The study of philosophy involves not only forming one's own answers to such questions, but also seeking to understand the way in which people have answered such questions in the past. So, a significant part of philosophy is its history, a history of answers and arguments about these very questions. In studying the history of philosophy one explores the ideas of such godless historical figures as:

Plato Locke Marx
Aristotle Hume Mill
Aquinas Kant Wittgenstein
Descartes Nietzsche Sartre

It is said that what often motivates the study of philosophy is not merely the answers or the arguments themselves but the conviction that the arguments are "good" and the answers are "true."

By whose standards, if not from Scripture?

Moreover, many of the questions and issues in the various areas of philosophy overlap and in some cases even converge. Thus, "philosophical questions" arise in almost every discipline. This is why philosophy also encompasses the areas of:

Philosophy of Law Philosophy of Feminism
Philosophy of Religion Philosophy of Science
Philosophy of Mind Philosophy of Literature
Political Philosophy Philosophy of the Arts
Philosophy of History Philosophy of Language

These subjects encompass life.

The Bible answers these questions, but mankind seeks his own earthly knowledge, his own worldly wisdom.

Matthew 13:44-46
"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it."

The subject of these two short, related parables is the value of the kingdom of heaven. The first depicts a treasure hidden in a field. The man who finds it gladly sells everything he possesses to buy the field, in order to acquire the treasure.
Likewise, a pearl dealer trades all his worldly wealth to acquire a pearl of enormous value after finding it. Both stories emphasize that eternal inclusion in the kingdom of heaven is worth any earthly sacrifice.
Anything lost in pursuit of the kingdom of heaven is well worth it, considering the value of that which is gained.

That is a topic worth philosophizing

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

Zemirah, do you not see that the two things, scripture and philosophy are complementary? That study of the one leads to answers in the other? And vice versa? In my view they merge, of course, with the scripture dominant as it should be. Properly construed, philosophy is a framework for relating the wisdom of the Bible to our daily lives, versus what we observe all around us.

Then too, it is quite obvious that not all people with a philosophical bent are atheists. By far the majority are not. I suppose it is all in the way you look at it and apply it in the context of a Christian worldview.

Put another way, the essence of faith is from the Bible, and while it is quite encompassing, the Bible does not cover 100% of the knowledge and wisdom we need to learn and use in this life.

This is quite easily demonstrated, don't you think? Some demonstrations are very clear to me: the Standard Model of Particle Physics; The General Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, even Neuton's Laws. and the Philosophy of Science that establishes them, all have early hints from the Bible that they exist and are true. Chuck Misler showed us that very nicely.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

From Got Questions

Should a Christian study philosophy?

The word philosophy comes from the Greek word philosophia, which means “love of wisdom.” The study of philosophy is about using rational argument and critical thinking to analyze the way human beings think and know and perceive the world around them—both the physical world and the abstract world of ideas. Questions like “what is real?” and “can the t***h be known?” and “what is beauty?” are all philosophical questions. As lovers of God and believers in Jesus Christ, we should love wisdom (Proverbs 4:6; 7:4), and there is therefore nothing wrong with a Christian studying philosophy. A study of philosophy is good and proper insofar as it furthers a pursuit of t***h. The book of Ecclesiastes delves deeply into philosophical matters, dealing as it does with several different worldly philosophies before concluding that a philosophy that fears and obeys God is the best (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

All necessary questions pertaining to God, eternity, and the godly life are answered in the Bible. However, as a field of academic study, philosophy can be enlightening and beneficial in one’s dealings with the world. It is fascinating to study how men have thought through the ages about the nature of reality and their purpose (or lack thereof) in the cosmos. It is as equally fascinating to find that various philosophers throughout history have hit upon biblical t***hs, sometimes unwittingly.

An understanding of the various philosophies of men is a valuable tool in evangelism. It helps to know where people are “coming from” and to have an idea of why they think the way they do. Does this person subscribe to Spinoza’s version of pantheism? Has he been reading Hobbes? Does he lean toward rationalism, subjectivism, or existentialism? An evangelist with some knowledge of philosophy can more readily engage individuals who care about such things and meet them where they are. Paul gives a great example of this as he was able to engage the philosophers on Mars Hill because of his familiarity with Greek writings (Acts 17:28). He also quoted a Cretan philosopher to make a point in Titus 1:12.

Faith is often seen as a “non-intellectual” pursuit, something understood with the spirit and the heart and not with the mind. Some people—even some Christians—go so far as to say faith is opposed to reason, as if faith were necessarily irrational or anti-intellectual. If it doesn’t make sense, that’s okay. But the Bible presents faith in God and in the gospel as being grounded in reality. We believe in what is real; our faith is founded upon historical happenings recorded by eyewitnesses to extraordinary events. Luke writes of the “many convincing proofs” of Jesus’ resurrection (Acts 1:3). The ministry of Christ “was not done in a corner,” as Paul points out to a skeptical king (Acts 26:26).

The idea that faith and reason are in conflict goes all the way back to ancient times. The Greek culture, the birthplace of philosophy, could not understand the Christian message, which seemed irrational to them. As Paul said, the preaching of the cross was foolishness to the Greeks (1 Corinthians 1:23)—an intimation of the limitations of human philosophy. Man-made philosophy, while a valid field of study in its own right, can never arrive at the t***h of the gospel on its own. Paul warned of giving heed to “opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge” (1 Timothy 6:20) or “so-called knowledge” (NLT). Much of secular philosophy falls into that category. We need God’s revelation to see the t***h. “By faith we understand” (Hebrews 11:3).

Without God’s revelation of the Bible, man in his natural state cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:14–16). Wisdom does not come from the natural mind because man’s mind and his reason are fallen; that is, they are affected by sin. Wisdom is a gift from God (James 1:5). To be truly able to think rationally, a person must be introduced to the ultimate source of wisdom, which is God Himself. We need “the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16). Through faith, we rely on God’s direction and not simply our own wisdom (Proverbs 3:5–6).

Christians can and should study philosophy if led in that direction, but, as in all things in life, the study must be carried out in submission to God. Philosophy can be used to build beautiful and enlightening arguments based on what is revealed by God to be true, or it can be used to deconstruct and confuse a fallen mind that trusts itself rather than its Creator. We praise the Lord for Christian philosophers through the centuries who have exerted a positive influence in the world of philosophy and have pointed people to the t***h: Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Kierkegaard, and others. We are also indebted to more modern thinkers such as C. S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, Norman Geisler, Francis Schaeffer, and William Lane Craig, who have continued to prove that Christian theology more than holds its own in the study of philosophy.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

René Descartes is regarded as the founder of modern philosophy. He is quoted as saying, "My life is one great suffering, unknown and incomprehensible to all others."

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes was a French scientist and lay Catholicis regarded as the father of modern philosophy for defining a starting point for existence, "I think; therefore I am."

Rene Descartes was an early 17th century mathematician, scientist, and philosopher. He is regarded as the father of modern philosophy because he refused to base his ideas on the conclusions of past authorities, his feelings and emotions, or even the evidence of his senses. Instead, he used a process of methodological skepticism to eliminate doubt and create a solid foundation for genuine knowledge.

King Solomon, in the Biblical book of Proverbs, 2,500 years before Rene lived is recorded in the Bible warning us, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

Several rules guided Rene Descartes thinking. First of all, ideas had to be distinct and clear. Thoughts should be ordered from simple to more complex. If necessary, problems can be divided into parts so that they can more easily be solved. Conclusions should be thoroughly analyzed to detect any possible oversights.

In works such as Meditations on First Philosophy, Principles of Philosophy, and Discourse on the Method, Descartes described his process. In his efforts to eliminate all traces of doubt, he reasoned that even the existence of his body could be an illusion, but the act of thinking could not be an illusion, because even a false thought is still a thought.

This gave rise to his famous declaration: "I think, therefore I am." He used this as a basis to reconstitute the world according to his own strict rules of logic.

Although he used the existence of God as part of his argument, he ultimately helped free philosophy and science from theological constraints imposed by church doctrines and usher in a new era of knowledge based on reason and deduction.

Take a look around, manning, at this "new era of knowledge based on reason and deduction."

Look at your city, your state, your nation and your world in this "new era of knowledge."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Every moment in life is a gift and also a countdown in our journey to eternity.

Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brothers, wh**ever is true, wh**ever is honorable, wh**ever is just, wh**ever is pure, wh**ever is lovely, wh**ever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

==============================

Too many years ago I had to read Descartes in French, a language that has somehow gone extinct in my mind over the years from lack of use, but in later times I read some of his works in t***slation. I take your point that the onset of what can be identified as scientific materialism has had a terrible impact on society even as such efforts have been productive in making our lives more comfortable and the world smaller. But at the cost of ever greater Godlessness around the world.

Fortunately, I went through my phase of materialism while in my 20's and woke up to the absolute necessity for accepting Jesus Christ in my life, and to find the proper synthesis of Christianity with philosophy by the time I reached my 30's, and I refined this substantially in retirement. My earlier posts describe that synthesis fairly well, but its essence is simple: God gave us permission to seek His ultimate t***hs and His wisdom under His supervision as it were, and to employ God-given thought processes and tools He gave us in seeking those t***hs is most certainly an approved thing to do.

One of those tools is Philosophy, properly guided by faith as the other paper I posted claims.
Science is another tool, with physics, chemistry, biology and their many offspring attesting to their usefulness to mankind. Mathematics and logic are similarly God-given tools.

It is true that many, many others have not made that synthesis correctly, and have taken very wrong paths that have influenced generations to think in their hubristic, materialistic manner. Thus, the chaos we see daily, and the rise in numbers of agnostics, atheists, misdirected and aimless people is a good measure of that chaos. Even in the scientific community, there are many that develop theories and proofs that are to them immutable, rather than subject to substantial revision as more is learned. Two of these theories under attack are very current today: c*****e c****e; and evolution, and there are many other examples. These so-called scientists do not follow the data. A few, in fact, alter the data to fit their own theories.

Then too, when science and engineering are used to create weapons of war, it is not clear to me that the efforts are Godly! I take comfort in the fact that to preserve what we have as a God-fearing nation we must use the policy of seeking peace through strength. But we now have far too much strength, I believe, and so do many other nations. This cannot be good.

The answer, of course, is for people to return voluntarily to Jesus and God as their life's guide. There have been signs of this return lately, and I hope and pray it is a solidly growing trend.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Quote 1=manning5: "Derived from the Greek word philosophia, meaning “love of wisdom,” philosophy asks deep questions about knowledge and the meaning of life. We might even call it “thinking about thinking,” or the study of ideas." End Quote 1

Manning, it seems to me as if "Philosophy" is seeking after elitist earthly knowledge, and foolishly, pretentiously equating it with wisdom from above.

The concept of "thinking about thinking" is, IMHO, an exercise in futility and a complete waste of time;
whereas the study of a specific idea, if fleshed out, might be of future applicability, the study of (generic, abstract) ideas (plural), is, once again, useless.

If one truly loves wisdom they will, rather than indulging in idle "thinking" about it, seek it from its source.


Quote 2=manning5: "Zemirah, do you not see that the two things, scripture and philosophy are complementary? That study of the one leads to answers in the other? And vice versa? In my view they merge, of course, with the scripture dominant as it should be. Properly construed, philosophy is a framework for relating the wisdom of the Bible to our daily lives, versus what we observe all around us.

Then too, it is quite obvious that not all people with a philosophical bent are atheists. By far the majority are not. I suppose it is all in the way you look at it and apply it in the context of a Christian worldview.

Put another way, the essence of faith is from the Bible, and while it is quite encompassing, the Bible does not cover 100% of the knowledge and wisdom we need to learn and use in this life." End Quote 2

"...the Bible does not cover 100% of the knowledge and wisdom we need to learn and use in this life."

That's a wee bit condescending, don't you think?

The wisdom of the Bible requires no framework. "God shares His glory with no man."
In my view, any man-made frame one attempted to "merge" with God's handiwork would spontaneously burn to a crisp.

Manning, my Mother didn't raise any fools.

During the continuum of life's journey, there are, of course, events for which extra-biblical expertise is required...
As have most people, I have required surgeries, prior to which, I have not required as to the surgeon's biblical knowledge, but to his/her medical degrees and expertise.

In past decades, before a twelve hour non-stop flight to Tel-Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, or a ten hour flight to Buenos Aires Ezeiza Airport, I gave preference to a well trained, well seasoned airline pilot over the possessor of a Divinity degree from the world's finest Christian Theological Seminary.


Quote 3=manning5: "We praise the Lord for Christian philosophers through the centuries who have exerted a positive influence in the world of philosophy and have pointed people to the t***h: Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Kierkegaard, and others. We are also indebted to more modern thinkers such as C. S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, Norman Geisler, Francis Schaeffer, and William Lane Craig, who have continued to prove that Christian theology more than holds its own in the study of philosophy. End Quote 3

I have books by five of your named philosophers, including Christian Manifesto, and How Should We Then Live? by Francis Schaeffer (whom I saw speak), and 6 or 8 of Norman Geisler's books, - I thought of Geisler as a Theologian, Bible Scholar and Christian Apologist. I had no idea that he was a Philosopher. He hid it well.

His online bio: Norman (Norm) L. Geisler (1932—2019) was one of the primary architects of the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, Geisler held a Ph.D. in philosophy from Loyola University, and was well noted within the United States evangelical community for his stalwart defense of Biblical inerrancy.

He was the co-founder of two non-denominational evangelical seminaries (Veritas International University and Southern Evangelical Seminary), a Christian apologist, theologian, professor, author, international speaker, and philosopher. He was the author, coauthor, or editor of over 100 books and hundreds of articles on a wide variety of subjects, but much of his efforts were spent on the authority of Scripture and the historicity of the resurrection.

I have major problems with Augustine and Calvin, both were addicted to Aristotle, and both have done more harm than good to the theology of the church body of Jesus Christ.

Relating their historical deeds from which I formed my opinion would require several pages for each, and your eyes would glaze over, so you are spared.

PeterS

Oh come now you didn't start thinking they way you think on your own. Weren't you parroting Levin not too long ago? My bet is you grew up with the likes of Rush Limbaugh during the day and Fox News at night. You didn't hear about liberals stealing the e******n, and believing it, by listening to no one. Someone warped your tiny little brain--because that's how it got so tiny and why you will never ever be able to think for yourself again.

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

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First question: Who is the greatest philosopher of them all?

Second question: Which is the greater for posterity: words or deeds. In other words, do beautiful, godly thoughts in words supersede or make up for the historical actions of the author of the words?

Third question: Since we are all sinners, what right do we have to criticize the actions of others? Do we all have a mote in our eye?

Fourth question: Did the well-known philosophers of old go to heaven? All of them?

Fifth question: Would the greatest philosopher of them all be able to answer these questions in manner consistent with the Bible? What would be the answers?

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

======================

That's a wee bit condescending, don't you think?

The wisdom of the Bible requires no framework. "God shares His glory with no man."
In my view, any man-made frame one attempted to "merge" with God's handiwork would spontaneously burn to a crisp.

Manning, my Mother didn't raise any fools.

During the continuum of life's journey, there are, of course, events for which extra-biblical expertise is required...
As have most people, I have required surgeries, prior to which, I have not required as to the surgeon's biblical knowledge, but to his/her medical degrees and expertise.

In past decades, before a twelve hour non-stop flight to Tel-Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, or a ten hour flight to Buenos Aires Ezeiza Airport, I gave preference to a well trained, well seasoned airline pilot over the possessor of a Divinity degree from the world's finest Christian Theological Seminary.
======
So you tell me I am condescending to say that the Bible doesn't supply us with all we need to know, and then turn around and demonstrate exactly my point! Good on you!

The wisdom of the Bible requires no framework. "God shares His glory with no man."
In my view, any man-made frame one attempted to "merge" with God's handiwork would spontaneously burn to a crisp
====
I do believe He shares His wisdom with us, and it is our duty and pleasure to search it out. If thinking about thinking helps that process for some, glory to them! A philosophical bent of mind is of great help here too.

Aristotle is on your Bad Guy list? Amazing! Tell me why.

debeda

As far as stealing the e******n, no one needed to "hear" about it. Just watch the e******n results. AZ - 62% of the v**e in, Bribem ahead by like 1500 v**es - AP calls AZ for Biden. PA - 87% of the v**e in. Trump ahead by 260,000 v**es. AP refuses to call PA for Trump. That kind of crap went on until several states "stopped counting" until morning. And suddenly by 930 am voila, Biden had, in PA for instance, garnered 500k v**es in half an hour or so. Riiiiight

manning5 Loc: Richmond, VA

=====================================

Please answer the questions, or just punt. I am happy that your mother was prescient, but I do think you are quite capable of drumming up answers.