Ri-chard Loc: 23322

Lithuania claims it is simply abiding by the sanctions imposed by the European Union. After all, Lithuania is a member of the European Union and NATO. But that is the point. This is a deliberate provocation. It is laying economic siege to a vital interest of Russia. While there is no immediate danger to the Russian population of Kaliningrad, this is a flash point that could lead to an actual war as opposed to a special military operation.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/breaking-lithuania-light-fuse-world-war-iii/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=2022-06-19

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

The West keeps provoking Russia. If their is all out war, it will be on the west's hands. They will blame Russia and the sheep and i***ts of the world will believe the big lie. as usual.

Ri-chard Loc: 23322

Yep, your short analogy is on point.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

If you'll recall, Lithuania, the country where my ancestors come from, was the first country to "secede" from the former Soviet Union. Maybe they want to stick it in Russia's eye once again.

Ri-chard Loc: 23322

Good Luck, the Russian people will be protected against any Khazar Jews. Russia crushed their empire and then the N**is came to do the same.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

Just another thought. If Lithuania blocks these routes and essentially puts a siege on Kaliningrad, does that then give Russia an argument to stop all grain from leaving Ukraine for the rest of the world. If it is good one way, it should be good the other way.

Russia has declared all along that it wants neutrality for Ukraine, as a buffer between an aggressive NATO and Russia. Nothing wrong there. Only an i***t would want to put two great powers face to face and wait for an i***t like biden to take over one of them.

They also entered Ukraine to protect the two provinces in eastern Ukraine in the Donbas region that broke away from an illegally constituted government in Kiev, the result of an illegal c**p sponsored by America among others. These were populated mostly by ethnic Russians. They also stated the desire to rid Ukraine of the N**i elements that were the leaders in assaulting the Donbas region. Nothing wrong there. That was elevated to emergency when the Ukraine Army was getting ready to assault fellow Ukrainians in the Donbas and outside elements (NATO and America) arming them. This would only make the military assistance more violent and cost more lives, so Putin had to act right away, and couldn't wait for diplomacy.

It was said by virtually everyone in Feb, that Ukraine was of no interest to America and this was not our business. And ever since, biden and company have given billions to the Kiev thieves, possibly including the bidens, costing thousands of lives. If this escalates into WWIII, think hard. biden is at fault more then Putin and Putin's goals are not only right but good for the region.

Then disband NATO. It has no real value anymore. Russia is not and hasn't been threatening anyone in NATO. NATO does present a threat to Russia and has ever since promises were broken and NATO expanded eastward. Russia's primary interests are economic and the security of Russia. Remember, it was Europe that invaded Russia several time in the last couple hundred years. Russia wasn't invading Europe.

Logically Right

Ri-chard Loc: 23322

Good observations and questions. I believe Russia will seize the upper hand promptly. Starve the beast.

F.D.R.

You fail to mention that there will be no one left to blame. Based on Russia's performance in Ukraine there's no way they could win a conventional way against NATO even without US participation so they'd have to go with the nukes and that would be the beginning of the end.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

Through this whole process, Russia has never threatened NATO. Russia does not look at NATO as something they want to attack. It is NATO that keep threatening Russia with constant eastward expansion after agreeing in 1991 to never expand NATO eastward. There has been peace between Russia and Europe for 30 years. The Soviet Union is dead and buried, but it is the west who keeps demonizing Russia. Stalin was evil but he is dead. Putin is not Stalin. He is merely trying to compete economically and protect Russia from outside threats. It was America and NATO that started all of this Ukraine hostility in 2014 by sponsoring a c**p in Ukraine. The eastern provinces didn't want any part of the newly installed government in Kiev and rebelled, as is their right. Russia protected their interests and those of the Eastern provinces made up mostly of ethnic Russians. These people were under attack ever since from N**i m*****as fighting Ukraine's war. Things started to come to a head as NATO supported and trained Ukrainians were preparing to attack and take back the eastern provinces that wanted their freedom from oppressive Ukraine and laws they were passing to subjugate those people of the Donbas. Russia only moved into Ukraine after the Ukraine army was ready to move and because the likes of biden were arming them with weapons to use against Russia. They had to move before they became to well armed and it would cause more causalities. The Russian demands from the start were Ukrainian neutrality, not joining NATO, getting rid of the N**I m*****as and the harm they were causing, like 14,000 lives in the Donbas in 8 years, and freedom for the people of the Donbas areas to determine their own fate. What is wrong with that? Nothing. And the best solution for the whole area. They have not really changed their demands.

In all of this, they have never threatened NATO, but NATO keeps threatening them and attacking Russia via Ukrainians. It is Europe that has attacked Russia over the last couple of hundred years. They just want to go back to economic engagement and peace and their stated demands to protect Russia from a hostile force, NATO. If NATO and America would quit rearming Ukraine Russia could accomplish their goals in a few weeks, with less causalities and then arrange for the peace we all want, at the negotiating table during a cease fire.

Logically Right

son of witless

I think the West must provoke a wider war. The West commanded by Joe Biden and Germany is poorly lead. If Russia is allowed to defeat and swallow up Ukraine it can then pick off it's enemies one by one. Once Russia has won, it will rebuild and learn from it's mistakes. The West cannot sit around and let that happen.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

***I sort of agree that the west is provoking a wider war. Have to support that military/industrial complex and test new weapons. Now they are doing it with the lives of innocent Ukrainians forced into the war.

Personally I believe that, Russia wants out, but it can't withdraw or quit and allow Ukraine to join NATO and roll over the Donbas and the ethnic Russian citizens there. Ukraine signing and guaranteeing neutrality, and giving the Donbas area self determination whether that means within Ukraine or independent nations in their own right. Putin never started out to absorb then into Russia. That moves Russia eastward and makes them look like aggressors. They would rather see then as part of the buffer between Russia and NATO. And guarantees from NATO, via treaty, to never absorb Ukraine. They should also never absorb Finland and Sweden. There are no issues there that would make that necessary or desirable.

In the past, Russia has suggested joining NATO as a huge alliance for peace and was turned down. They also tried to join the European Union and were turned down. For 20+ years, the west has done wh**ever it could to paint Putin as an evil monster. If you yell it often enough and refuse to let him in peacefully, you tend to create what wasn't in the first place, and make an enemy when you could have made a friend.

Cheers

Logically Right

son of witless

I am going to admit something here and you can call me a freaking war mongering nut, but my mind is of the WW2 generation. Nobody wants to provoke WW3, but if you totally take WW3 off of the table, you will lose the war anyway.

Look back at why Adolf Hitler was so successful in the beginning of WW2 and you will see a parallel to today. The British and the French were still shell shocked by WW1. They had lost a whole generation of young men in a meat grinder, and even though they had won that war their leaders would do anything to avoid a replay.

The Fuhrer understood the men he was dealing with and played them and allowed them to appease him until he was strong enough to defeat them. In the end they caused a much more destructive war than if they had taken on Germany earlier while they were the stronger alliance.

There are a lot of similarities between Vladimir Putin and Adolf Hitler. Hitler came out of WW1 furious at the humiliation of Germany and was determined to rectify it. Putin was just as furious at the humiliation of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, and is determined to put the Soviet Union back together again, no matter how long or what it takes.

Putin like Hitler has no respect for the fools he is dealing with, Biden and the Leaders of Germany. He knows they fear a nuclear war like the leaders of the West in the 1930s feared an all out war. While it is true the West is helping Ukraine, he knows he can bluff them into not giving enough aid for Ukraine to win.

I was going to say that NATO should attack Russia, but I erased that. I will say that NATO must realize it cannot allow Russia to win. That means the Germans in particular need to stop screwing around and send all aid short of war to Ukraine. Even covertly send in their own troops who could use the experience.


The alternative is to allow Russia to defeat and absorb Ukraine. In a few short years Russia will have rebuilt it's armed forces and be ready, willing, and able to start reconquering Poland, and the rest of the old Warsaw Pact nations.

I don't think Russia wants wants out. I think Russia is there to win. Putin has dealt with weak American and European Leaders for decades. He knows that if he wins in Ukraine, the West will forgive and forget, like they did when he took Crimea. Putin is a lot of things, but stupid is not one of them. He knows the West always thinks short term, while his eye is on the far off future.

Russia like China will soon be in a bad demographic problem. Not enough young and too many old. Putin hopes to reconstitute the Soviet Empire before that becomes acute.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

We have overall been on the same page here. But I disagree slightly with your thinking on Putin. I don't think he wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union. I really think he wants Russian security and prosperity. He gets that through peace through strength and trade. He needs Ukraine as a buffer to NATO putting troops and missiles on the Russian border. He let NATO get away with the Baltic Nations on their border and he regrets that now. But NATO hasn't been that aggressive there. They have been since. Ukraine is another story. He set a Red Line and he is sticking to it.

Since day one when he took over Russia, Putin was labeled a KGB agent and demonized ever since. I have looked at him over time now. I always ask myself, "What would you do in his position?" He knows NATO is violating promises to not expand. He tries to join NATO and is turned down. He tries to peacefully join Europe and is turned down. And all along, he is called that KGB agent. Evil dictator. He is kicked out of the Group of Eight. Yet, they help us in our space program and the space station. You have to try to make a friend to put an end to an enemy. When we defeated Germany and Japan, we rebuilt them. When we defeated the old Soviet Union we soon started to take over the old Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, and use them to surround Russia. Is NATO the new Soviet Union. They are aggressors. What is NATO's goal? Ukraine, then Moldavia, Sweden, Finland, and then another try at Georgia. Surrounded to their west. Remember 9/11. Russia immediately helped us in our attacks in Afghanistan. They want to be a part of the world community economically. They aren't C*******ts. We're becoming more that then they are.

In short, welcome them, respect them, and work with them, and they will become better friends then we will ever find in China. In 30 years, they haven't been given a chance.

Just some thought and my opinions as logically as I can put them together.

Cheers

Logically Right

son of witless

You lay out a logical case, but I disagree with everything you say. Putin is very smart, but he is not ethical at all. When I compared him to Adolf Hitler that was not hyperbole or exaggeration for effect. Within his own country he has zero qualms about murdering absolutely anyone who pisses him off. Perhaps Stalin is a better comparison than Adolf Hitler, though there is not much difference.

NATO troops were never a threat to Russia at all. I do not think that even Putin ever believed that, but it does make a good excuse for invading your neighbors. You seem to also have a rather benign memory of the Soviet Union.

They conquered and brutally oppressed Eastern Europe. Vladimir Putin still is a true believer in the old Soviet System. He doesn't just want Ukraine as a buffer against the West, he wants it as a conquered territory and it's people as Russia's s***es.

I am a big Jim Cramer fan. He is an investment guru and CNBC TV host. I know that he has access to much better information than me. He rarely steps out of his genre to get political, but today he did just that. In the context of turning around the stock market and the economy, he really blasted the Biden Administration for allowing this Russia-Ukraine war to persist indefinitely.

He in my interpretation of his words said that Biden has consistently held back in giving Ukraine the aid it needs to win. This is causing needless deaths of Ukrainians and Russians. We have a stalemate, but with a definite bias towards the Russians winning.

I will not argue whether or not getting involved was good or bad, but since we did and are involved, we had better not lose, but we are losing. Biden is a weak and indecisive leader. Vlad being no i***t, knows this. If Trump or Reagan were President this war never happens and if it did, once Russia failed in it's early objectives, Putin would have cut his losses and withdrawn. That he has been willing to pay the steep price in men and materials to continue to fight, tells me that he has no fear or respect for Biden or Germany.

LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago

I'll be brief and then time to move on to other subjects.

***NATO troops were never a threat to Russia at all.
>>>Encirclement of Russia's western end with a former adversary was a threat. About the only need for NATO to exist was to contain the Soviet Union. It doesn't exist. So, they need to keep declaring Russia an enemy to justify their spreading encirclement of Russia.

***They conquered and brutally oppressed Eastern Europe.
>>>I'd rather see it as liberating Eastern Europe from the N**is and then facilitating the take over of local C*******t Parties. They then formed the Warsaw pact to protect themselves from the west. They did however use their might in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, etc. But ultimately, they voluntarily ended the Soviet Union and c*******m via Gorbachev and Yeltsin and now Putin. We will disagree, but the issue is today and Putin and not yesterday and Stalin.

***He doesn't just want Ukraine as a buffer against the West, he wants it as a conquered territory and it's people as Russia's s***es.
>>>I believe that to be totally False.

***If Trump or Reagan were President this war never happens
>>>Totally believe that. They would have sat down and talked things over and made a deal, in writing, and a treaty.

***That he has been willing to pay the steep price in men and materials to continue to fight, tells me that he has no fear or respect for Biden
>>>Agreed

Like I said, time to move on. It was a good discussion. Something rare on OPP. Until next time.

Logically Right