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Paul said that we are as "filthy rags"--that is BS. God made us and said "This Is good." We were made in his image and likeness
Jan 16, 2022 20:05:55   #
rumitoid
 
How can that be bad?

Perhaps Paul used it as hyperbole, as Jesus often did to get the crowd's attention and help to open their eyes. “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29) Or, In Luke 14:26, Jesus said that in order to be His disciples that we had to hate our parents, siblings, spouses, and children. We know that Jesus would never desire for us to hate anyone. He even said that we were to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that if we are angry with our brother without a just cause, we would be in danger of judgment (Matthew 5:22). There are many more instances in Scripture.

We are not "as filthy rags." False Flag of faith. And it is impossible to know what cruel and unusual damage to every level of our existence was caused by this misread verse. But we can see a prime example of its deleterious effect by the Catholic cult of the Penitentes. There are cabins throughout NM were they would meet and flog themselves to wash their "filthy rags" clean for Christ. This bizarre notion is worldwide in various ways. So-called sacrifices of Lent is another great example. Such fasting is not of Spirit but of human understanding; Jesus made the only sacrifice needed.

As Jesus said, announced to the world, we are "blessed." There are no requirements or qualifiers to what he said of us. We act the way he described and enter into heaven. No Christian Membership Card needed, just Love for neighbor and enemy alike.

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 21:11:41   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
rumitoid wrote:
How can that be bad?

Perhaps Paul used it as hyperbole, as Jesus often did to get the crowd's attention and help to open their eyes. “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out..."
... We act the way he described and enter into heaven. No Christian Membership Card needed, just Love for neighbor and enemy alike.


Yes, there is a lot of hyperbole in the Bible. And a lot of straightforward instruction. Common sense comes into play in order to differentiate.

Your last sentence rumi is the epitome of Truth and Common Sense, regardless of religion or philosophy. As Jesus said, "the First and Greatest Commandment is to Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. And the Second is like unto it; to Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets". 💞

And like I've often said, to love your enemy means nothing more than to desire the best life for that person; that is, for your enemy to repent and turn away from sin.

Reply
Jan 16, 2022 21:13:27   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
How can that be bad?

Perhaps Paul used it as hyperbole, as Jesus often did to get the crowd's attention and help to open their eyes. “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29) Or, In Luke 14:26, Jesus said that in order to be His disciples that we had to hate our parents, siblings, spouses, and children. We know that Jesus would never desire for us to hate anyone. He even said that we were to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that if we are angry with our brother without a just cause, we would be in danger of judgment (Matthew 5:22). There are many more instances in Scripture.

We are not "as filthy rags." False Flag of faith. And it is impossible to know what cruel and unusual damage to every level of our existence was caused by this misread verse. But we can see a prime example of its deleterious effect by the Catholic cult of the Penitentes. There are cabins throughout NM were they would meet and flog themselves to wash their "filthy rags" clean for Christ. This bizarre notion is worldwide in various ways. So-called sacrifices of Lent is another great example. Such fasting is not of Spirit but of human understanding; Jesus made the only sacrifice needed.

As Jesus said, announced to the world, we are "blessed." There are no requirements or qualifiers to what he said of us. We act the way he described and enter into heaven. No Christian Membership Card needed, just Love for neighbor and enemy alike.
How can that be bad? br br Perhaps Paul used it... (show quote)

If you’re going to quote the Bible, get the author right and quote it in context. This verse was written by Isaiah and not Paul. We are not as filthy rags, our works are.

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6a

We can do all that we can to perfume, primp, and pretty up ourselves, yet we are still filthy sinners before God who is not impressed by our efforts to beautify and cover up our sins by good deeds and religious works in order to gain salvation. Like the spray of a skunk or the aroma of a rotting corpse, the stench of our sinfulness burns in the nostrils of God.

Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Reply
 
 
Jan 17, 2022 10:40:57   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
How can that be bad?

Perhaps Paul used it as hyperbole, as Jesus often did to get the crowd's attention and help to open their eyes. “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29) Or, In Luke 14:26, Jesus said that in order to be His disciples that we had to hate our parents, siblings, spouses, and children. We know that Jesus would never desire for us to hate anyone. He even said that we were to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that if we are angry with our brother without a just cause, we would be in danger of judgment (Matthew 5:22). There are many more instances in Scripture.

We are not "as filthy rags." False Flag of faith. And it is impossible to know what cruel and unusual damage to every level of our existence was caused by this misread verse. But we can see a prime example of its deleterious effect by the Catholic cult of the Penitentes. There are cabins throughout NM were they would meet and flog themselves to wash their "filthy rags" clean for Christ. This bizarre notion is worldwide in various ways. So-called sacrifices of Lent is another great example. Such fasting is not of Spirit but of human understanding; Jesus made the only sacrifice needed.

As Jesus said, announced to the world, we are "blessed." There are no requirements or qualifiers to what he said of us. We act the way he described and enter into heaven. No Christian Membership Card needed, just Love for neighbor and enemy alike.
How can that be bad? br br Perhaps Paul used it... (show quote)


Conscience pricked again rumitoid? You are in desperate need of the help of a good bible teacher.

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 19:11:31   #
rumitoid
 
Roamin' Catholic wrote:
Yes, there is a lot of hyperbole in the Bible. And a lot of straightforward instruction. Common sense comes into play in order to differentiate.

Your last sentence rumi is the epitome of Truth and Common Sense, regardless of religion or philosophy. As Jesus said, "the First and Greatest Commandment is to Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. And the Second is like unto it; to Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets". 💞

And like I've often said, to love your enemy means nothing more than to desire the best life for that person; that is, for your enemy to repent and turn away from sin.
Yes, there is a lot of hyperbole in the Bible. And... (show quote)


Thank you, very well put. We need to put some burning hot coals on their heads...but lovingly, lol.

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 19:26:06   #
rumitoid
 
Parky60 wrote:
If you’re going to quote the Bible, get the author right and quote it in context. This verse was written by Isaiah and not Paul. We are not as filthy rags, our works are.

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6a

We can do all that we can to perfume, primp, and pretty up ourselves, yet we are still filthy sinners before God who is not impressed by our efforts to beautify and cover up our sins by good deeds and religious works in order to gain salvation. Like the spray of a skunk or the aroma of a rotting corpse, the stench of our sinfulness burns in the nostrils of God.

Don't talk about things you know nothing about.
If you’re going to quote the Bible, get the author... (show quote)


Christ will judge the saints "according to their works" (Matt. 16:27). And you are right. I just for some reason in my old memory I credited Paul, yet did know Isiah said it; one of my favorite books. Of course it is not hard to condemn me instead of perhaps asking for an explanation or being understanding. However, "all our righteousness" is not as filthy rags...if we accept Christ. How will Christ judge the saints? "according to their works" (Matt. 16:27) "Filthy rags" do not qualify for this Book of Life.

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 19:28:42   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Conscience pricked again rumitoid? You are in desperate need of the help of a good bible teacher.


Lol, and you are in desperate need to express your faith, unless you think my beliefs are somehow greater.

Reply
 
 
Jan 17, 2022 19:36:16   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
Lol, and you are in desperate need to express your faith, unless you think my beliefs are somehow greater.


No, you pretty consistently show you either don’t understand Christianity and the meaning of the verses you try to twist or your intent is to mock God’s word again

You need a teacher because you don’t understand basic things about Christianity. You just make things up that aren’t biblical

Reply
Jan 17, 2022 19:56:56   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
Christ will judge the saints "according to their works" (Matt. 16:27). And you are right. I just for some reason in my old memory I credited Paul, yet did know Isiah said it; one of my favorite books. Of course it is not hard to condemn me instead of perhaps asking for an explanation or being understanding. However, "all our righteousness" is not as filthy rags...if we accept Christ. How will Christ judge the saints? "according to their works" (Matt. 16:27) "Filthy rags" do not qualify for this Book of Life.
Christ will judge the saints "according to th... (show quote)

Why do you jump so fast to say I condemned you? How did I condemn you? I merely pointed out that if you're going to quote scripture at least get it right. If Isaiah is one of your favorite books and you've read it numerous times, I'd expect you'd know it very well.

And do you know what Jesus judges our works for?

Reply
Jan 18, 2022 00:43:52   #
rumitoid
 
Parky60 wrote:
Why do you jump so fast to say I condemned you? How did I condemn you? I merely pointed out that if you're going to quote scripture at least get it right. If Isaiah is one of your favorite books and you've read it numerous times, I'd expect you'd know it very well.

And do you know what Jesus judges our works for?


YIKES! I am so sorry. That was not my intent at all. You were the opposite of condemning, very respectful. As I said to you, I thought your response was excellent. My comment about "condemn" was not directed at you but generally from other members. I really do feel terrible about that, I truly enjoyed your comments, they were insightful.

Reply
Jan 20, 2022 16:40:19   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
rumitoid, this is not specifically aimed at your head, for God knows how much of what you write is to provoke a predefined response.

God, however, did pronounce His creation to be "very good" BEFORE Eve's and then Adam's dalliance with the delicicious pomegranate, predicated by the guile of the Serpent, after which they were banished from the Garden.

I believe in the "plenary inspiration" of all Biblical Scripture, as explained by Jesus, the incarnate "Living Logos," the very Word of God, 2nd in the Triune Godhead, as He spoke in John 16:13-15:

"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.
Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you."

The definition of "plenary inspiration" [Merriam Webster]: "divine inspiration covering all subjects dealt with" —

The word plenary means "complete or full"; when used to describe the inspiration of God's Word, plenary means that all parts of the Bible are equally of divine origin and equally authoritative.

The human agency of approximately 40 men of diverse backgrounds were inspired to write down the words they received from the Holy Spirit over the course of 1500 years, and these are the words we received as the Holy Bible.

Isaiah was a prophet, Ezra was a priest, Matthew was a tax-collector, John was a fisherman, Paul was a tent maker, Moses was a shepherd, Luke was a physician...

Anyone who believes they have the option of omitting even one of them will never understand the entirety of what God literally breathed into His Living Word to all mankind.

Anyone who chooses to omit the words of Paul or Isaiah or James or Malachi, is denying themselves the full counsel of God's Word, for it is the Words of Christ, from God the Father, via the Holy Spirit, that they all record, every word, whether Old Testament or New Testament.

The phrase the whole counsel of God is found in Acts 20:27. In his farewell speech to the elders of the Ephesian church, Paul says, "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:26-27).

What is "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27)? The original Greek phrase translated, "the whole counsel of God," is πασαν την βουλην του θεου (pasan ten boulen tou Theou), and πασαν (pasan) means "all, every, whole, total," so the phrase means, "all, every, total, whole counsel of God."

rumitoid wrote:
How can that be bad?

Perhaps Paul used it as hyperbole, as Jesus often did to get the crowd's attention and help to open their eyes. “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29) Or, In Luke 14:26, Jesus said that in order to be His disciples that we had to hate our parents, siblings, spouses, and children. We know that Jesus would never desire for us to hate anyone. He even said that we were to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that if we are angry with our brother without a just cause, we would be in danger of judgment (Matthew 5:22). There are many more instances in Scripture.

We are not "as filthy rags." False Flag of faith. And it is impossible to know what cruel and unusual damage to every level of our existence was caused by this misread verse. But we can see a prime example of its deleterious effect by the Catholic cult of the Penitentes. There are cabins throughout NM were they would meet and flog themselves to wash their "filthy rags" clean for Christ. This bizarre notion is worldwide in various ways. So-called sacrifices of Lent is another great example. Such fasting is not of Spirit but of human understanding; Jesus made the only sacrifice needed.

As Jesus said, announced to the world, we are "blessed." There are no requirements or qualifiers to what he said of us. We act the way he described and enter into heaven. No Christian Membership Card needed, just Love for neighbor and enemy alike.
How can that be bad? br br Perhaps Paul used it... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Jan 23, 2022 00:32:18   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
rumitoid, Have you ever considered the possibility that the Penitentes are not really Catholics at heart, but are actually "Conversos," - descended from the increasing numbers of Hispanic Americans along the US-Mexico border who are coming out of the shadows to declare themselves descendants of Conversos, or crypto-Jews, who fled the Spanish Inquisition five centuries ago:

On Dec. 8, 1596, Luis de Carvjal the Younger, his mother, Doña Francisca, and his sisters Leonor, Isabel, and Catalina, were burned at the stake in Mexico City after being tried in court by the Inquisition. Their crime was practicing Judaism in secret. This was no small matter. De Carvajal’s uncle, who was known as “el Conquistador,” was the governor of the New Kingdom of León, in northern Mexico. They were a family of Conversos, Jews who took great pains to hide their true heritage and religious convictions from the authorities, presenting themselves as practicing Catholics. But, in private, they remained faithful to Judaism.

Genealogist Dennis Maes says that a good 80 percent of the genealogies he’s done for Hispanic families in New Mexico can be traced back to de Carvajal. Some of those who rediscover their Ashkenazi (Eastern European-Jewish) and Sephardic (Spanish-Jewish) heritage have returned to the faith of their ancestors, facing the condemnation of their Catholic communities and families. They do so as a matter of conviction. If their ancestors could endure the trials of the Inquisition, which included torture, and persist in their beliefs, they could honor that legacy by converting.

"Blanca Carrasco, 52, an administrator at the University of Texas at El Paso, remembers hearing her uncles complain that her great-grandmother “was going to start speaking Ladino again so they wouldn’t understand.” A little girl at the time in a Catholic family near the border, she had no idea what Ladino was, or that it was connected to Judaism.

…Another El Pasoan, Yolanda Chavarria-Radcliffe, a 52-year old designer, said she heard her parents and grandparents say a few times, “We were once Jews.”

“It never really meant much to me when I was a little girl,” she said in a recent interview. “But as time went on, I was never satisfied with Catholicism or Christianity. Then, when I learned about the history of crypto-Jews, I began investigating my family ancestry and discovered that Chavarria and other family names stretching back centuries — Juarez, Orrantia, Aguirre, Enriquez — are well-known Converso names.”

The same was true for Carrasco. “It turns out my surname was very popular in Converso circles. And so were the names of other ancestors — Espinoza, Perez, and Enriquez.”

…Today, descendants of Jews who were expelled from Spain have tangible incentive to examine the roots of their family trees: Citizenship is now being offered in Spain and Portugal for a limited time, for those who fit the countries’ legal criteria, and in a sense, to atone for the past.

According to scholars, crypto-Jews converted to Catholicism under threat of death during the Spanish Inquisition, but secretly remained practicing Jews. To escape suspicion and persecution at home, they disproportionately settled in far-flung parts of the Spanish empire such as the Caribbean and Mexico. By the 16th and 17th century, many of these so-called “Conversos” had migrated into the Rio Grande valley, all the way up through modern-day New Mexico.

Five hours north of El Paso, through the New Mexican desert, is Albuquerque, home to Dr. Sarah Koplik, director of community outreach at the Jewish Federation of New Mexico.

Koplik oversees a program that looks at genealogies to determine whether someone has Sephardi heritage. Those with Converso roots can obtain a certificate from Koplik that can be used to apply for Spanish citizenship under a 2015 program by Spain’s government offering citizenship to anybody with a Sephardi background and language proficiency.

“Applicants can be from anywhere in the world and must show some evidence of Sephardi roots,” she says. “We issue certificates authenticating Sephardi heritage by investigating surnames and family backgrounds. They can then take these documents to Spain and pass an exam to become Spanish citizens.” (Portugal does not require language proficiency.)

Koplik estimates that 300,000 to 400,000 Hispanics in New Mexico today have Converso roots.

“We’ve documented that about one-quarter of the 80 initial settler families in New Mexico were Conversos. Based on genealogy and excellent record keeping, we know that 30 to 40 percent of the one million New Mexican Hispanics today have at least once crypto-Jewish ancestor,” she says."

“Oñate was calling for colonialists to go north and settle New Mexico,” Artenstein says. “[Author and historian] Ron Hart’s theory — and it makes sense when you look at the genealogies of Northern New Mexicans — is that a lot of Converso families in Mexico probably thought, if the governor’s family can’t be protected, what about us? I’ve interviewed a lot of Converso Jews that descended from families that came up with Oñate.”

Now, back to the Penitentes: The supposed Catholic Penitentes are a great mystery in that for 400 years, Los Hermanos Penitentes have been serving the people of rural northern New Mexico -- taking care of widows, helping to bring in the harvest, and offering comfort to those mourning the dead.

However, the group also known as the Penitente Brotherhood has not always been treated well. The secretive society, often made up of generations of males from the same family tree, has developed a deep mistrust of outsiders over the past half-century, as stories swirled in the press about the brothers' ritual mortification practices during Holy Week, the Hermanos retreated from the outside world.

Although the lay brothers are deeply spiritual, they have not always been embraced by the Catholic Church. The church pulled its priests out of New Mexico following Mexico's independence in 1821. In the decades that followed, the Penitentes stepped in to keep the faith alive. Like other penitent groups, the Hermanos have been known to practice self-flagellation and other types of physical punishments as a penance for their sins.

Unlike the very public penances conducted in other parts of the world, such as the crucifixions that occur every year in the Philippines, the brotherhood in New Mexico gathers inside small, windowless buildings, called moradas. Modeled after the kiva meeting chambers of the Native American tribes who previously inhabited the region, the moradas are sacred spaces where the men of the community meet to conduct religious rituals.

Since secrecy is a priority for this group, it was especially hard for the Hermanos when outsiders began asking questions about their traditions.

During the Great Depression, the Federal Writers' Project, a New Deal program intended to bolster the economy, sent thousands of men and women into rural parts of America to pen "snapshots" of local cultures and folklore.

Sandoval traces much of the group's current "paranoia" to fallout from that time. He claims men who came to the valley during that time reportedly infiltrated the brotherhood's meetings, only to leave and write sensationalistic articles about their sacred practices.

"A lot of the brothers were very paranoid," according to Sandoval. "And to a degree, they were right, because people were writing about them, not understanding that some questions can't be answered due to the sacredness of it."

During Holy Week, the most important part of the year, at certain times during the next few days, the doors of the morada will close and the brothers will retreat inside to take part in their secret, sacred rituals. The Santuario de Chimayo is a Roman Catholic church in Chimayo, New Mexico, built by Spanish missionaries in 1816. It is an important sacred place for the Penitentes in the region.

Sandoval said that the Penitentes' brand of spirituality has taught him much about suffering. Sandoval joined the brotherhood when he was just 11 years old. For most of his adult life, he has worked in health care, taking care of people who are experiencing intense periods of suffering. He's seen people at their most vulnerable -- sick, dying, dealing with mental illness or addiction. For him, Holy Week and the accompanying rituals are cleansing. They recharge and refresh him so he can maintain the positive energy he needs to bring healing to his community...

"When you come from a modern society and a modern way of thinking, stepping into the morada is going back 200 or 300 years in time," Sandoval said. "You have to have faith that there's value in the ancient and old ways."

So, does this Secretive Penitente Brotherhood Of New Mexico not sound as if they could be from the same roots as the secretive Conversos who do not in fact accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behave, but feel compelled to annually create their own sacrifice of suffering?

rumitoid wrote:

..................
"But we can see a prime example of its deleterious effect by the Catholic cult of the Penitentes. There are cabins throughout NM were they would meet and flog themselves to wash their "filthy rags" clean for Christ. This bizarre notion is worldwide in various ways. So-called sacrifices of Lent is another great example. Such fasting is not of Spirit but of human understanding; Jesus made the only sacrifice needed."
.................

Reply
Jan 27, 2022 15:07:09   #
rumitoid
 
Zemirah wrote:
rumitoid, Have you ever considered the possibility that the Penitentes are not really Catholics at heart, but are actually "Conversos," - descended from the increasing numbers of Hispanic Americans along the US-Mexico border who are coming out of the shadows to declare themselves descendants of Conversos, or crypto-Jews, who fled the Spanish Inquisition five centuries ago:

On Dec. 8, 1596, Luis de Carvjal the Younger, his mother, Doña Francisca, and his sisters Leonor, Isabel, and Catalina, were burned at the stake in Mexico City after being tried in court by the Inquisition. Their crime was practicing Judaism in secret. This was no small matter. De Carvajal’s uncle, who was known as “el Conquistador,” was the governor of the New Kingdom of León, in northern Mexico. They were a family of Conversos, Jews who took great pains to hide their true heritage and religious convictions from the authorities, presenting themselves as practicing Catholics. But, in private, they remained faithful to Judaism.

Genealogist Dennis Maes says that a good 80 percent of the genealogies he’s done for Hispanic families in New Mexico can be traced back to de Carvajal. Some of those who rediscover their Ashkenazi (Eastern European-Jewish) and Sephardic (Spanish-Jewish) heritage have returned to the faith of their ancestors, facing the condemnation of their Catholic communities and families. They do so as a matter of conviction. If their ancestors could endure the trials of the Inquisition, which included torture, and persist in their beliefs, they could honor that legacy by converting.

"Blanca Carrasco, 52, an administrator at the University of Texas at El Paso, remembers hearing her uncles complain that her great-grandmother “was going to start speaking Ladino again so they wouldn’t understand.” A little girl at the time in a Catholic family near the border, she had no idea what Ladino was, or that it was connected to Judaism.

…Another El Pasoan, Yolanda Chavarria-Radcliffe, a 52-year old designer, said she heard her parents and grandparents say a few times, “We were once Jews.”

“It never really meant much to me when I was a little girl,” she said in a recent interview. “But as time went on, I was never satisfied with Catholicism or Christianity. Then, when I learned about the history of crypto-Jews, I began investigating my family ancestry and discovered that Chavarria and other family names stretching back centuries — Juarez, Orrantia, Aguirre, Enriquez — are well-known Converso names.”

The same was true for Carrasco. “It turns out my surname was very popular in Converso circles. And so were the names of other ancestors — Espinoza, Perez, and Enriquez.”

…Today, descendants of Jews who were expelled from Spain have tangible incentive to examine the roots of their family trees: Citizenship is now being offered in Spain and Portugal for a limited time, for those who fit the countries’ legal criteria, and in a sense, to atone for the past.

According to scholars, crypto-Jews converted to Catholicism under threat of death during the Spanish Inquisition, but secretly remained practicing Jews. To escape suspicion and persecution at home, they disproportionately settled in far-flung parts of the Spanish empire such as the Caribbean and Mexico. By the 16th and 17th century, many of these so-called “Conversos” had migrated into the Rio Grande valley, all the way up through modern-day New Mexico.

Five hours north of El Paso, through the New Mexican desert, is Albuquerque, home to Dr. Sarah Koplik, director of community outreach at the Jewish Federation of New Mexico.

Koplik oversees a program that looks at genealogies to determine whether someone has Sephardi heritage. Those with Converso roots can obtain a certificate from Koplik that can be used to apply for Spanish citizenship under a 2015 program by Spain’s government offering citizenship to anybody with a Sephardi background and language proficiency.

“Applicants can be from anywhere in the world and must show some evidence of Sephardi roots,” she says. “We issue certificates authenticating Sephardi heritage by investigating surnames and family backgrounds. They can then take these documents to Spain and pass an exam to become Spanish citizens.” (Portugal does not require language proficiency.)

Koplik estimates that 300,000 to 400,000 Hispanics in New Mexico today have Converso roots.

“We’ve documented that about one-quarter of the 80 initial settler families in New Mexico were Conversos. Based on genealogy and excellent record keeping, we know that 30 to 40 percent of the one million New Mexican Hispanics today have at least once crypto-Jewish ancestor,” she says."

“Oñate was calling for colonialists to go north and settle New Mexico,” Artenstein says. “[Author and historian] Ron Hart’s theory — and it makes sense when you look at the genealogies of Northern New Mexicans — is that a lot of Converso families in Mexico probably thought, if the governor’s family can’t be protected, what about us? I’ve interviewed a lot of Converso Jews that descended from families that came up with Oñate.”

Now, back to the Penitentes: The supposed Catholic Penitentes are a great mystery in that for 400 years, Los Hermanos Penitentes have been serving the people of rural northern New Mexico -- taking care of widows, helping to bring in the harvest, and offering comfort to those mourning the dead.

However, the group also known as the Penitente Brotherhood has not always been treated well. The secretive society, often made up of generations of males from the same family tree, has developed a deep mistrust of outsiders over the past half-century, as stories swirled in the press about the brothers' ritual mortification practices during Holy Week, the Hermanos retreated from the outside world.

Although the lay brothers are deeply spiritual, they have not always been embraced by the Catholic Church. The church pulled its priests out of New Mexico following Mexico's independence in 1821. In the decades that followed, the Penitentes stepped in to keep the faith alive. Like other penitent groups, the Hermanos have been known to practice self-flagellation and other types of physical punishments as a penance for their sins.

Unlike the very public penances conducted in other parts of the world, such as the crucifixions that occur every year in the Philippines, the brotherhood in New Mexico gathers inside small, windowless buildings, called moradas. Modeled after the kiva meeting chambers of the Native American tribes who previously inhabited the region, the moradas are sacred spaces where the men of the community meet to conduct religious rituals.

Since secrecy is a priority for this group, it was especially hard for the Hermanos when outsiders began asking questions about their traditions.

During the Great Depression, the Federal Writers' Project, a New Deal program intended to bolster the economy, sent thousands of men and women into rural parts of America to pen "snapshots" of local cultures and folklore.

Sandoval traces much of the group's current "paranoia" to fallout from that time. He claims men who came to the valley during that time reportedly infiltrated the brotherhood's meetings, only to leave and write sensationalistic articles about their sacred practices.

"A lot of the brothers were very paranoid," according to Sandoval. "And to a degree, they were right, because people were writing about them, not understanding that some questions can't be answered due to the sacredness of it."

During Holy Week, the most important part of the year, at certain times during the next few days, the doors of the morada will close and the brothers will retreat inside to take part in their secret, sacred rituals. The Santuario de Chimayo is a Roman Catholic church in Chimayo, New Mexico, built by Spanish missionaries in 1816. It is an important sacred place for the Penitentes in the region.

Sandoval said that the Penitentes' brand of spirituality has taught him much about suffering. Sandoval joined the brotherhood when he was just 11 years old. For most of his adult life, he has worked in health care, taking care of people who are experiencing intense periods of suffering. He's seen people at their most vulnerable -- sick, dying, dealing with mental illness or addiction. For him, Holy Week and the accompanying rituals are cleansing. They recharge and refresh him so he can maintain the positive energy he needs to bring healing to his community...

"When you come from a modern society and a modern way of thinking, stepping into the morada is going back 200 or 300 years in time," Sandoval said. "You have to have faith that there's value in the ancient and old ways."

So, does this Secretive Penitente Brotherhood Of New Mexico not sound as if they could be from the same roots as the secretive Conversos who do not in fact accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behave, but feel compelled to annually create their own sacrifice of suffering?
rumitoid, Have you ever considered the possibility... (show quote)


Wow, thank you, very informative. And yes I was somewhat aware. In one of the towns that I lived in, Espanola, it was discovered that a number of idioms they used dated back to the 16th Century Spain and were no longer used. Upon further research, it was revealed through various analyses that many inhabitants there were Jews in hiding from the Inquisition with the Conquistadors. Fascinating stuff.

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Jan 27, 2022 19:33:06   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
rumitoid, the 1492 expulsion of the Jewish people from Spain and the 1492 expedition/discovery of the American continents by Christopher Columbus (financed by Spain) was God's divine plan, for God is not a God of coincidence.

God sent a remnant of them here for safekeeping, until He was ready to return them to Israel.

A search for the religious affiliations of Espanola, compared with the statewide New Mexico statistics; shows
not one Jewish affiliation is claimed there - compared with 0.2 % Jewish affiliation statewide.

2020 Espanola, NM population of 10,022
64.9% of the people in Espanola, NM are religious:

- 0.9% are Baptist
- 0.2% are Episcopalian
- 53.0% are Catholic
- 0.0% are Lutheran
- 0.8% are Methodist
- 4.3% are Pentecostal
- 0.8% are Presbyterian
- 1.9% are Church of Jesus Christ
- 2.2% are another Christian faith
- 0.0% are Judaism
- 0.0% are an eastern faith
- 0.8% affilitates with Islam


New Mexico State Population, 2021. 2,105,005.
51.2% of the people in the state of New Mexico are religious:

- 5.8% are Baptist
- 0.5% are Episcopalian
- 29.1% are Catholic
- 0.7% are Lutheran
- 1.9% are Methodist
- 2.0% are Pentecostal
- 1.0% are Presbyterian
- 3.4% are Church of Jesus Christ
- 5.6% are another Christian faith
- 0.2% are Judaism
- 0.5% are an eastern faith
- 0.2% affiliates with Islam

"They will know that I am Yahweh their God when I regather them to their own land after having exiled them among the nations. I will leave none of them behind." (Ezekiel 39:28)

Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” (Zechariah 8:23)


rumitoid wrote:
Wow, thank you, very informative. And yes I was somewhat aware. In one of the towns that I lived in, Espanola, it was discovered that a number of idioms they used dated back to the 16th Century Spain and were no longer used. Upon further research, it was revealed through various analyses that many inhabitants there were Jews in hiding from the Inquisition with the Conquistadors. Fascinating stuff.

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Feb 4, 2022 22:59:47   #
Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia
 
Parky60 wrote:
If you’re going to quote the Bible, get the author right and quote it in context. This verse was written by Isaiah and not Paul. We are not as filthy rags, our works are.

But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6a

We can do all that we can to perfume, primp, and pretty up ourselves, yet we are still filthy sinners before God who is not impressed by our efforts to beautify and cover up our sins by good deeds and religious works in order to gain salvation. Like the spray of a skunk or the aroma of a rotting corpse, the stench of our sinfulness burns in the nostrils of God.

Don't talk about things you know nothing about.
If you’re going to quote the Bible, get the author... (show quote)


👍👍👍

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